SFWW Chats

System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese : Hi Dave!
davek : Hi Annaliese. Oops, Ann.
anneliese : Oops...guess I gotta change my nick.
davek : How are things going? I'm trying the firefox browser today.
anneliese : I've been reading good things about that one on another message board.
anneliese : Don't know if there is a mac version, though.
davek : Neither do I.
anneliese : Guess I'll stick with netscape for a while longer.
davek : I owe you a few things. A worlds wiki write up, and comments on the latest mods to the web site.
System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
anneliese : Hi CM!
davek : HI Chris.
anneliese : No rush, I guess, Dave, things have been awfully quiet....
camidon : Howdy folks
anneliese : Of course, that also means that some of us have too much time to play with this.
camidon : Anneliese, did you get my email, this morning? It came back to me once
anneliese : Nope...don't think so.
camidon : I'll send it again, then
camidon : For some reason, my emails to Elizabeth were being bounced back too
anneliese : hmmm. That doesn't bode well. Do you know what the error was?
anneliese : I did get an email from Bob today.
camidon : "The following addresses had transient non-fatal errors"
anneliese : What address did you use?
camidon : that's all. For both you and E. Thought it might be some AOL thing, but I don't know.
davek : The mail may still go through.
anneliese : It kind of sounds like it could be an AOL thing.
anneliese : One day, AOL wouldn't let me see the mail from my office manager.
davek : Bunnner.
anneliese : She sent me so many emails that day, AOL wanted to call it spam.
davek : Oops, bummer.
camidon : That's what I thought too. E's did not, it came back permanently. Anneliese's has yet to come back permenantely so my guess is it is going through
anneliese : Yep, I got your email. 5 mins. ago.
davek : What have you guys been doing? I actually put pen to paper for the first time in months yesterday.
camidon : So what's up with you two as I've been AWOl for a while? The group on a whole seemd dead, though now there's at least a few crits and old faces reemerging
anneliese : I'm trying to write...added a 'graph to Mike's entry on the wiki page.
anneliese : Mostly, though, I've been recouperating from the Chicago fiasco and trying to look for business.
anneliese : Everything with SFWW has been so dead of late...I'm hoping it is because of summertime distractions.
davek : I've been wrapping up a project. ANd maybe starting another. Both are pretty iffy.
anneliese : I have gotten a couple of emails inquiring about membership, though, so our advertising is beginning to work.
camidon : Just started wading through the first revision of my 2nd Elevator book. Dabbling at a few short stories, but mostly I've been to busy to do anything, as we all slip into from time to time.
davek : Not writing projects though.
camidon : YES! Oh that's good to hear, Anneliese.
anneliese : Have we seen a whole elevator book?
davek : How did they find us?
anneliese : I set up a AOL group for SFWW.
anneliese : Both came through that.
camidon : Anneliese, Nope, my next submission is the chapters 9-11. I'll get it all out to you eventual (the first book)
anneliese : I sent out a few more letters asking for web link updates...no apparent response in that dept.
camidon : Well, that's a start, AOL folks. Least something good is coming from that arm of SFWW. Still got to find a way to bump up our seach results so Mark's old page isn't at the top of the list.
anneliese : And, I've been fooling around a lot with the wiki.
davek : I would say that well over half the web sites out there get created once and never updated.
anneliese : I've been updating the website pages with stuff that is supposed to help with search engines.
anneliese : <==agrees with dave.
davek : I was doing a web rewrite for this little startup I work with. I would ask for reviews of my proposals, new info and get back nothing. I gave up.
anneliese : Actually, CM, I got both of your emails now.
camidon : I think I emailed you, Anneliese, but I liked the format of the "resources/links" on the website
anneliese : Yep. getting web content (or any kind of content) is like pulling teeth.
camidon : Well that's good, Anneliese. At least they're going through. Wonder what the hang up. To much vertual traffic across the lines
anneliese : I've spent the last week updating my website...it's hateful coming up with content!
davek : I saw a movie about the rise nad fall of a dot com. The web master is saying give me what you want don't just tell me to make it wizzy.
anneliese : Glad you like the new links format...it should be easily expandable as we grow.
anneliese : lol, Dave
davek : How about the 'cover letter" page Chris?
camidon : There;s a cover letter page? Hadn't gotten that far.
anneliese : I like the cover letter page.
anneliese : Good job!
anneliese : I think I changed one typo.
davek : My great contirbution tothe web is not to provide links but to provide the search terms for Google.
davek : No more out of date links.
anneliese : I submitted the site to the Netscape search also, per your suggestion.
davek : Only one. Remember my story - Proactive Reincarnation, about the man becoming a dog. Well after all my reads and the groups I just found a typo in it.
anneliese : And I put the keywords into the home page...still have to do the rest of the pages.
anneliese : I think that every time you revisit a piece, you'll find a typo somewhere...gremlins get in or something!
anneliese : brb
camidon : There's always one more typo It's so frustrating.
davek : Yeah. Have you been caving?
camidon : Me, caving? Um, yes, way too much.
anneliese : Is there such a thing as too much caving?
camidon : Tomorrow, for example, I'm going on a 15 hour exploration trip.
davek : What cave? Where?
camidon : There was a week I was in the cave all day on tours, then after hours, I was in the cave training people, exploring, filming, or some other nonpaid activity. Gosh it was fun, but I was getting no sleep and no writig related stuff done.
camidon : This is all at Wind Cave, NP, in SD
davek : I'll have to look it up.
camidon : You can read some of the stuff I've done here: http://www.nps.gov/wica/Wind_Cave_Trip_Reports-2004.htm
anneliese : Well, if I could afford the time and the trip, I'd be one of your worst visitor pest!
camidon : Scroll down to May and April
System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
anneliese : Hi!
camidon : if you check out the trip reports. Wind Cave has a huge website, one of the best in the NPS (national park service)
camidon : Hey Mike!
emptykube : hello
anneliese : tells me www.nps.gov can't be found.
davek : HI Mike.
emptykube : how is everyone?
anneliese : Lamenting the quietness of the group.
camidon : http://www.nps.gov/wica/
camidon : Go here. And try a second time. Some times the NPS websites decide to go on coffee break, but come up on the second try
emptykube : yeah very slow couple of weeks!
camidon : Moving through the summer at a frenzied pace, Mike. It's such a complete contrast to my winter months.
davek : I found it.
anneliese : I can get the site, but not your page. It says it is an unknown or expired web page.
davek : CHris's link worked for me.
camidon : Shrug, anneliese, see the coffee break comment. Try it a few times. Other then that, No big deal really.
davek : So how come no cave oriented SF stories?
camidon : I'm working on then, Dave. ONe about Mars, one about Ice caves on Triton.
emptykube : spalunking on triton?
camidon : Haven't found a really good plot yet.
davek : How about one about an asteroid being explored for possible use as a intersteller ship?
camidon : That's on the list too, Dave.
anneliese : Wondered how you were going to work that one out, Dave.
emptykube : ooohhh that's a good idea, dave!
camidon : Those are my three idea, none of which I've really done anything with, for lack of time.
davek : My wife says I'm ornery. I don't know why she says that.
anneliese : lol
camidon : I immediately thought about an asteroid cave exploration trip for the GenE project, just haven't brought it up.
anneliese : Did anyone look at the liquid stone exhibit?
camidon : liquid stone? No. care to explain?
davek : I came up with the term - biosmith. Like wordsmith or blacksmith but this is a gene manipulator.
davek : I looked. Very interesting.
emptykube : the liquid stone thing was kind of cool. haven't had time to really digest anything yet,
anneliese : I posted it on the wiki. New and experimental uses/adaptations for concrete.
anneliese : I really loved the idea of hollowing asteroids and the asteroid mining site.
anneliese : Although the mining methods described seemed like different technologies.
davek : SOmeone is talking about an asteroid mission where they just crash into it to see if that could be used in case an earth colider is discovered.
emptykube : me too....trying to figure out how to write a story with all the right elements.
davek : There was an article in Astronomy about the search for earth like planets.
anneliese : And that dogbone shape...spured some ideas.
anneliese : Have you posted a link for the Astronomy article?
camidon : Liquid stone seems like an oxymoron. I'll have to look into the post
emptykube : I like the dogbone asteroid. also like the name. Kleopatra
davek : I saw the article in the magazine. I'll check for a web site.
anneliese : May not be available online.
davek : I'm sure that the Society to Prevent the Desicration and Exploitation of Asteroids will stop you Empty.
anneliese : lol
davek : That is of course another story idea.
camidon : Dave is right, can't forget about those who would absolutely oppose the stellar colonization project.
emptykube : same could be said for any solar system body used. but such a Society might make an interesting element in the overall story line
camidon : PLenty of possible tension when you have plenty of groups opposed to the main theme of the universe creation
anneliese : Could add some great tension.
davek : Has anyone seen I, Robot?
emptykube : no...
anneliese : Wasn't impressed with the reviews.
camidon : Nope, though I want to. I have the feeling Asimov would be raging fits in his grave though
anneliese : I'm watching the building of the I Robot bike right now..
davek : I bought the I, Robot book just to see what Asimov had written.
anneliese : Yep, I wondered about that, too, CM
anneliese : I haven't read the book since high school. Don't remember too much.
anneliese : I loved Asimov's nonfiction, but never cared all that much for his SF.
camidon : I Robot is a collection of short stories.
davek : That's the last I read it. Pretty good but only one agressive robot.
davek : Yeah, it's shorts. There are more and a novel ot two.
camidon : THe movie is more based on "The Caves of Steel" Asimov's second book in the Robot series where a HUman and robot have to investigate a Robotic murder.
davek : Now you tell me. I'll have to pick that up.
anneliese : Now, that makes more sense...thanks for explaining that.
davek : I've been going through Stephen King's Dark Tower series.
anneliese : That is one Asimov sf that I did like.
camidon : The robots NEVER go berzerk, as Asimov was fundamentally oppose to that. The whole point of the Three Laws was so that Wouldn't happen . He was tired of all the "killer robot" earlire stories and set out to write a universe where there were robots, there were problems, but that the machines would never run awol. Asimov was an optimist with his robot series.
davek : That's what I thought.
System: emptykube left us (snif).
anneliese : Yep. Reminds me of the Beast Master movie...nothing at all like the book that supposedly inspired it.
davek : I think they try to justify the behavior by they are trying to protect us from ourselves.
camidon : So. I just really, really, really, wished they hadn't named this movie "I Robot" Whether it's good or bad, it's just not the Asimov vision, and to associate his name to it, is a slap in his "grandmaster" face.
davek : The local paper had an article about how hard it is for the movie people to make a SF movie. Any deviation and the fans of the book get upset.
anneliese : Have you noticed that sf books are much more 'thoughful' than movies?
anneliese : That sounds like hype to me, Dave. Sort of justification for movie madness.
davek : The paper talked about Blade Runner and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind.
camidon : Anneliese, that's because the scifi genre is associated with the "action" genre. (with few exceptions) For better or worse
anneliese : You're right. Action and horror, but not much to do with good speculative fiction.
davek : In both of those the movie ending was very different then the story.
camidon : Look at ALien series, pitch black, Star Wars, Last Starfighter, even Blade Runner.
camidon : Same with Minority Report (a revamped Dick short story)
davek : Were Alien annd Pitch Black stories?
camidon : Few exceptions: Being John Malcovich. K-Pax Maybe Close Encounters
camidon : Dave, No, those were original movies.
davek : How about - Chronicles of Riddick? Pure Hollyword action SF.
davek : And Termonator 3. I liked the ending.
camidon : I do want to see that. But they turned a very good SciFI horror movie with good characters, into (what I heard) was a bad sequel.
davek : WHich one ?
camidon : I hated T3. (though not the ending. Just thought it was way to predictable)
camidon : Pitch Black,
System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
davek : Really? I expected a happy Hpollywood ending. Not for the robot to be devious.
emptykube : sorry. i'm having some hardware issues. may not be able to stay much more if i disappear suddenly, please don't be offended
davek : Still there I got an error message.
camidon : Still here.
anneliese : Sorry to hear that, Mike.
davek : It was a bad sequel. BUt a lot of action.
emptykube : trouble with either video card or monitor
camidon : that's no fun, Mike. Last year, my monitor began smoking, and a small board ignited. Ugh.
emptykube : yuck!
davek : It was a bad sequel. BUt a lot of action.
System: davek left us (snif).
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
camidon : If SciFi movies don't have action, they usually die in the box office. See Sphere (I liked) and Solaris (I think I liked) both based on books.
davek : The gremlins are out. I had some network problems.
anneliese : Well, we do have to be honest...movies & books are a business.
camidon : Don't jinx me!
davek : WIth different audiences.
anneliese : And in both media, we try to do what it takes to sell a product.
anneliese : We also want some artistic value, but we still work within the economic constraints.
camidon : Sadly, movies are fast replacing books. I read some article somewhere that stated reading was down by all ages, races, areas, etc. Something like 2 out of 5 people don't read any books a year.
anneliese :
emptykube : gremlins for sure! I'm getting blackouts ever time the monitor refreshes, but its the second monitor i've used in two days. (old one to replace the one i thought had burned out.) noe i'm thinking something more serious is wrong!
davek : So we write screen plays.
davek : Graphics cards are cheap.
camidon : Sorry to hear that Mike.
camidon : Screeplays? Don't think I'll go there. Though, Bruce has had experience with that (although he's no longer in the group, les sigh)
emptykube : arrgghhh!!! I'm gonna sign offf o I can take an ax to this thing:) have fun all!
System: emptykube left us (snif).
davek : I think with all my TV and movie watching I think more in visual than written modes. I seem to like dialog.
davek : By empty. Good luck. Uplug it before you go to sleep.
anneliese : I sometimes wonder about writing scripts.
camidon : I'm visual too, more dialogue oriented, but I don't really want to touch the TV/Movie medium. TO much chance to lose all my principles, what few I have left.
davek : Actually, I think you need to be in Los Angeles to make a go of it.
camidon : We should set up another GenE chat, to solely discuss more issues, and for the fun of it.
davek : You don't lose them. You sell them for big bucks.
anneliese : I wouldn't even know where to begin with script writing.
davek : Then after you have the bucks you make art films.
anneliese : I agree, CM.
camidon : Very true, Dave. Very true. I've never been one for big bucks, and working for the NPS proves that!
anneliese : You could be self employed like me and make even less, CM!
camidon : Bob Friedman, did a bunch with play writing. Maybe we could have him chat about it sometime.
camidon : Lol, Anneliese.
davek : I bought a Star Trek Voyager script book. Mostly formating but I remember a stroy where a book author was showing a script to someone. The reader, an experienced movie person just glanced at it and said wrong.
anneliese : I wrote a play once...was pretty passionate about it for a while...but I overcame it.
camidon : We could use my next story date in August, or Herbie's upcoming date, as I don't think he would mine!
davek : The pacing was all wrong for a movie. You need to go between characters quickly no long speaches.
camidon : Ah, nope, got a prior arrangement for next MOnday, so I can make it next week. Doh. ---Me and a friend are writing a murder mystery to put on for a few friends, one of those interactive ones, and it's scheduled for that evening.
davek : CHris, a GenE chat would be good. I'm free most nights.
anneliese : Yep, it could be another night, if you all want.
camidon : Let me look at the coming week...
davek : Tuesday, Wednesday, ...
camidon : How soon would you like to meet? This week? Would Wednesday be too soon?
anneliese : It's your call.
davek : Works for me, but I'm easy. Only Friday wouldn't work.
camidon : Let's do this Wednesday, then, at the same time 8:00MDT, 10:00EDT?
anneliese : I think I'm free most nights, at least for the next 2 weeks.
camidon : Anneliese, you're EDT, so would earlier be better?
davek : OK. Send out a note.
anneliese : Earlier is certainly better, but you have schedules also.
camidon : Also, maybe sometime we could try to send up and early day chat with a few people, and try to arrange it so Herbie could make it. I bet he would love that.
anneliese : I can do the 10 EDT.
anneliese : That's a great idea, CM.
camidon : Okay, let's just leave it at the usual time then.
anneliese : Do you want me to send the notice, or do you want to?
camidon : If you have a second, that would be great. It would just be one more thing for me to forget this week.
anneliese : If you find that that I've forgotten to do it, let me know, or send one out yourself...I'm online all day (9am-6pm EDT)
camidon : I'll try to get caught up on GenE.
davek : Getting late. Chris, what do you think of a story idea log on the GenE page? The idea is to help flesh out the univrse and to keep people from stepping on others stories.
camidon : Will do, Anneliese.
camidon : Think that's a great idea, Dave. Let's get the ideas out in the open, and just be sure to note who came up with them.
davek : I could cobble one together and see what it looks like.
camidon : That would be great, Dave.
anneliese : I've added comments and some other goodies to the wiki, but I don't think I have revision tracking and some other features working yet.
anneliese : I might try to tackle that tomorrow.
camidon : Gosh, Anneliese, I've got you beat. Tomorrow, I'm in the cave 8AM-Midnight, maybe later.
camidon : Gosh I'm weird!
anneliese : Gawd, that sounds like a long hard day!
camidon : It's been a fun chat tonight. Glad to have things settled down a little so I could sit in!
davek : Glad you could make it.
anneliese : Glad to have you both here. Definately fun tonight.
camidon : It's all fun, though, since it's just an exploration trip. Hard work, but the potential rewards... new cave rooms, make it worthwhile.
davek : Time to go though. See you all Wednesday.
davek : Get those new members.
camidon : So I'll be in touch with you all this Wed at 8:00MDT, 10:00MDT. for a GenE shindig.
anneliese : See you then. Niters for now.
davek : Bye.
camidon : gnight, you two.
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System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi CM!
camidon: Howdy!
anneliese: I guess at least one person got my reminder?
System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Or, is it because you knew already?
anneliese: Hi Mike!
emptykube: hi all
camidon: Both, I think. Wrote numerous post-it notes!
camidon: Hi Mike
emptykube: how is everyone?
anneliese: Tired today...can't get out of my own way with this TWiki stuff.
camidon: Just banged my knee on the table. <ouch> Other than that. Good
anneliese:
emptykube:
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
camidon: Tomorrow is my weekend, and boy do I need it.
anneliese: Hi Dave!
camidon: Hi dave
davek: HI
emptykube: hi dave
anneliese: One more week till we leave for the conference, so we're nuts.
davek: Scrolling is not working. I'll log off and back in.
System: davek left us (snif).
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camidon: Probably won't get anymore folks, but heck, ya never know
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emptykube: i've spent the better part of two months researching Heresies and just finished another book on the topic so my head is swimming
anneliese: I say: let's get started.
anneliese: Heresies...way too many of those!
camidon: THough, Bruce did send out a message regrading this project today
anneliese: Is he able to make Mon. nite chats?
camidon: Where do we start tonight?
camidon: no, Bruce can't make Monday chats.
anneliese: One point of business...do you want me to be customizing the Twiki, or do you want to do it?
camidon: I still haven't had the time to thoroughly read all of your responses to the Tech questions, mike.
emptykube: that's okay nietther have I
camidon: I assume that's directed to Dave, as he's the more computer literate.
camidon: Dave? do you want to customize, Twiki, or let Anneliese do it?
anneliese: Just a division of labor, really. I don't mind doing it, but you guys are the editors, so your wish is my command.
davek: I started dumping stuff into the wiki already. Just cut and pasted from the forum and looking for a way to structure it.
anneliese: I'm thinking of setting up a special 'site' just for this project.
camidon: Or you both can tweak it. (I've yet to look at Twiki, also).
davek: All I can work on is the content. Annaliese has to do the hard work of login's and setting up the whole thing.
anneliese: Then, in the future, we can have multiple projects, but easy separation.
anneliese: Yep, I'm gonna get a login working...eventually!
davek: All it is is that one undocumented setting in that unreferenced config file.
anneliese: Nope, I think I understand what the issue is...I just don't like their solution. Looking at the FAQs, neither do others.
davek: Can it be put inside the forum, so that we only need one login?
anneliese: Hmmm....never thought about that. I kind of doubt it, but I'll have to look at the Forum software. However, the reverse might work.
emptykube: sorry... i keep getting pulled away by my rugrats
emptykube: i'm back now, though
davek: OK, pop a new browser window and go to - http://www.acmfox.com/cgi-bin/sfww/twiki/view.cgi/Main/WebHome I did add some content
anneliese: The forum and chat board use real security setups. TWiki uses security that is part of the Apache server (which might not be enabled on my site).
camidon: I was spacing to, MIke
System: emptykube left us (snif).
davek: I looked at some of the login stuff, but since I don't have an installation to refer to it was academic at best.
camidon: I was spacing to, MIke
anneliese: The instructions call for edit to a *supplied* .htaccess file, which I have tried to reconstruct, since none came with the download.
anneliese: I think I can get around the problem by writing a login page...just haven't had time to do that yet.
anneliese: I was impressed that you got your topics in, though. Good job!
davek: It is pretty easy, although formatting is new and different.
anneliese: Well, I'm impressed.
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anneliese: Mike...there are two of you!
emptykube: did I loose you guys?
camidon: I lost you for a while, Mike
emptykube: two of me?
anneliese: No longer. Just one now.
davek: I thought that I could contribute some example formatting.
emptykube: be very afraid for the world at large if that's true
anneliese:
camidon: Shall we move on to some "world" discussion?
anneliese: GA
emptykube: sure
davek: CM, have you looked at the Wiki site?
camidon: Not, yet, Dave.
davek: BTW, according to the TV schedule there is a SF movie on now that uses a black hole power source.
camidon: On my list of things to do
emptykube: don't have television, dave...broadcast and cable free household
camidon: In the little I skimmed of MIke's responses to our Tech questions, Mike, you seem big on the "asteroid" idea. Why don't we disucss the "raw materials" needed for the trip, where we get them, (which will relate, potentially, to the asteroid idea).
davek: I'll summarize in the forum and Wiki.
anneliese: I have to admit, the asteroid idea is very attractive to me as well.
davek: It is the obvious source for materials. Well, construction at least. DO we refine the asteroid and weld plates or dig tunnels?
emptykube: I'm not stuck on the asteriod idea, its just that one of the requirements you mentioned early on was current technology and I believe using current drilling/excavation technology modified somewhat an asteriod would be possible as oppossed to building a materila able to last centuries
camidon: Personally, I'm warming up to the idea too, though at first I didn't like it. Now I see it's potential, and its rationale.
emptykube: material
davek: And where does the oxygen come from? Transmutation, comet ice?
camidon: I agree, MIke. Tech wise, it works wonders, and solves all sort of material problems.
anneliese: I think tunneling makes a lot of sense in the beginning, but over the millenia, the original asteroid is likely just a core of a much greater structure.
camidon: And we wouldn't necessarilt HAVE to have a power source, if we just sling it around a few planets.
emptykube: oxygen comes from plants and anerobic bacteria
emptykube: exactly, CM...give it a good nudge and send aim it as close as possible.
anneliese: Can we park in an orbit for a bunch of years to store energy?
emptykube: draw back is how to slow it down at destination?
davek: It originally came from fused hydrogen in stars.
camidon: I agree with the tunneling. They have an initial space-worthy structure, they would just have to tunnel out, and then make sure those tunnels were then space worthy.
emptykube: annelies do you mean build it and place it around a planet to collect solar radiation?
davek: To design the ship we need to know the goals of the mission, resources available, and commitment of the builders.
camidon: I'm not set totally for the idea, yet, either, but I'm seeing less reasons why this option isn't a very, very good one.
anneliese: Yes, I think...Basically, for a project like this to work, it has to be very simple, and, in the long run, very low tech.
anneliese: Rather like a biological system.
emptykube: I agree
emptykube: building near Jupiter might also have obvious advantages as well
camidon: I agree, Dave. But if we know where some of the raw materials for the mission are coming from, i.e., asterouds that may infulence the ship's goals, mission, etc
anneliese: I keep trying to think about how species spread and evolve naturally. I think our ships have to follow a similar patter.
anneliese: pattern.
davek: It is a give and take, but there are some mission goals that must be met or the project is not feasable.
emptykube: I think Dave is right that we need to figure out motivation of the builders. How desperate are they? How rich? Et.
anneliese: Alternatively, there could be different groups, all looking at the same kind of project, but with vastly differing missions.
camidon: At this point I would ask, why shouldn't we use Mike's idea of an asteroid as basis for resources and ship design? What are the negatives?
emptykube: 1st negative...how to stop at destination?
camidon: BTW: I read an article on the NY Times online about private space travel and a challenge to build a private space faring vessel.
camidon: I've since posted the article on the bboard.
anneliese: Thanks for posting that one.
davek: We are talking about 150 years or more in the future. Things change.
anneliese: The asteroid has to be small enough to function as a moon, smaller than earth's moon, though, so it isn't too disruptive to the planet it orbits.
emptykube: dave I think CM's idea calls for 1000's of years. If we were talking a 150 or 200 I'd say build a traditional ship and see how she fares. 1000's of years calls for a kind of durability our current tech can't achieve.
camidon: Would there be a way to navigate the asteroid? Maneverability would probably be impotant. Collision courses with other objects would be bad.
anneliese: If we can get an asteroid to move at all, I'd presume that we can steer it.
davek: I ment the trip starts in 150 years or more, not the duration.
camidon: Rather, Dave, did you mean. the "mission" should start a 150 years in the future?
camidon: ah hah.
camidon: I suppose the ship
emptykube: CM...as I was typing I was thinking that you could use gravity to slow it down, ssort of reverse sling shot. Just slap retro's on the outside of the asteriod .
davek: The ship is started to be built in say - 2150
anneliese: Alternatively, in the lost boat theory...what if a mining operation sets itself adrift?
camidon: oops... I suppose a ship's engineers could rig up some kind of system, air jets or somthing? <space engineering is not my forte> Maybe this could help slow it down to? Given enough time?
camidon: Dave, do you prefer, a more conventional spacecraft?
emptykube: if we postulate the ship building as being 150 to 200 years in the future we then have to extrapolate all sorts of new tech, or explain why the universe we build is so much like the one we live in.
davek: No, whatever we decide to build.
davek: We can't build it now. It has to be built in the future.
davek: Or it is an alien artifaact.
emptykube: example...in 150 years will we find exotic matter? Will a theory of everything be developed? will quantum computers be in existance? et..
camidon: I'd say, we could construct a craft and have it on it's way in 50 years.
davek: When this story takes place is the first question in the Wiki.
camidon: So many facets of this idea. It's startling really.
anneliese: If we knew that earth was facing a catastrophic event in 50 years...could we have colony ships ready?
emptykube: agree with CM...with enough motivation, using current technology slighty modified a slow boat could be built in 50 years. What is the motivation? Religion? Politics? Stupidity?
emptykube: catastrphy is a good motivator.
anneliese: A slower migration would be simply a function of running out of room. A sudden migration needs something more.
davek: I agree with Annaliese, but I can't think of a reason to do this in fifty years.
emptykube: I was envisioning a single initial mission which inspires others at a much later date...sort of like hay...let's do what they did.
camidon: That's probably true, perhaps we should figure out a reason for this trip?
anneliese: Short of environmental or political catastrophe, there aren't too many reasons other than simple curiosity.
emptykube: the reason has to also jive with the cost
camidon: I can envision a new space race, between the EU, and perhaps an eventual AU (Asian Union) with China and Japan leading the way. Then perhaps, 150 years is a good timeframe.
anneliese: In a slower story line, I think folks do this because: they can, they want to see what is 'out there'.
camidon: I also like the idea, of a rich religious sect, teaming up with a wealthy small country or something like that
anneliese: How many people do you envision a ship holding?
emptykube: In an early version of my Personality Conflict story I postulated a religous group dedicated to spreading humanity's seed to the stars. Religion or politics are the only reasons I can see for doing this so soon.
camidon: The search for a truly "religiously free environment" has always been great motivation for tremedous journey. (Puritans, Mormons, just to name a few)
emptykube: In a slower time frame, again, we will need to allow for technologies developed.
emptykube: which is fine with me.
anneliese: How long is it going to take to colonize the moon and the asteroids? I think that has to come first.
camidon: MY feeling was we WERE going for a slower timeframe, having put forth the Tech questions.
camidon: Though I didn't really think about that until now.
davek: Slower timeframe means - slow journey or a few hundred years before departure?
anneliese: Years before departure, I think.
emptykube: if we wait till the Moon and asteriods are colonized FTL might well be developed. The Albiguere drive I posted about only requires the discovery of exotic matter to work.
emptykube: yes...slower time frame to me means hundreds years before departure.
emptykube: brb
anneliese: We might still need a long journey, even if FTL is in place to allow for an evolutionary phase.
camidon: Since, we're working with SCADS of time here, I guess I see no reason the "mission" has to really leave any time soon, anyway
davek: Check the wiki guys, a lot of this is discussed in there.
camidon: No FTL. We did decide that!
camidon: So, we'll use a slower timeframe, but not too slow, so we can readily extrapolate most tech?
davek: As good as any SF writer can do it.
anneliese: I'm looking at your TWiki post. I think we should all consider reviewing it and working from that as our starting point.
camidon: So let's attempt to nail down a "departure date" and a potential reason for the first ship to leave (even if there are more ship9;s to eventually follow)
anneliese: I'm going to sound a little radical here, but I think we need to nail down the scope of the project and some of the working rules.
davek: I would say write your ideas in the Wiki and we'll discuss them there, or the forum, or a chat.
anneliese: I suspect that some of these story issues will be answered by how certain writers want to create stories.
camidon: This is very interesting discussion. The more we discuss, the more we realize we need to know somethins else to make a decision!
davek: It is all inter-related. We discuss one thing and realize that it affects many other parts.
davek: Is it time to go to the AOL chat room?
anneliese: I'm moving over, but you all can continue here if you like.
davek: We should move. If we want to attract new members we should look like an active group.
davek: See you there.
davek: Bye
camidon: Let's let the idea sit for a few weeks. We can do more discussion on the bboard and wiki site once it's all up and running
System: davek left us (snif).
camidon: There goes Dave, doh.
anneliese: That makes sense. If we want another chat date, there should be plenty available.
camidon: Anyway, I'd suggest, chatting in two weeks during the open Monday chat session.
emptykube: back...sorry had to help wife
anneliese: I think that makes sense. I probably won't be able to make it though
camidon: Dave jumped to AOL, Mike, and Anneliese's straddling both, so I think we're wrapping things up.
camidon: No problem, Anneliese.
emptykube: I'll head over to the aol chat, tehn...;et me just scroll back to see what I missed
camidon: As long as you can still get out a chat reminder, though!
anneliese: So far, it's just Dave and me in AOL, so I'm hanging her for a bit longer.
camidon: Can't make the AOL chat, so I'll say gnight to you all then.
camidon: Keep discussing this if you like, and just email me the chat transcript, from the AOL session
camidon: I'm flexible in my opinions, if we actually can reach an opinon.consesun about something!
anneliese: If I neglect to email it, look for it on the forum. I've been pretty good about posting the chat logs of late.
emptykube: I think maybe its time to try to get a story and then see where we go from there.
anneliese: I think so also.
camidon: BTW, Anneliese, the SFWW page, with the crit schedule is kind of weird now, with the dates.
camidon: Maybe we should all try to write a brief, beginning scene, and see what comes out.
anneliese: Probably because I was trying to clean it up, got distracted, and never finished the job. Just keep reminding me.
camidon: We could then see what we have in common. Just another idea.
camidon: I'll post these thought on the bboard, and try to look into WIKI.
camidon: As Dave departed, I think you two should move over permanently to AOL.
anneliese: Have patience with the wiki...I have a bit to clean up withit.
emptykube: cm...I'm gping to sign off, then back in in another browser. Will you be here for a while lioonger?
camidon: Gnight, you two.
anneliese: Yep. I'll be here.
anneliese: Niters, CM. Thanks for everything.
camidon: I think, I'll sign of MIke.
camidon: so no.
camidon: gnight
System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: WB, Mike
emptykube: hi...changed my browser. AOl just doesn't like MSN
anneliese: MSN is a browser? I thought it was a service only.
emptykube: MSN has its own browser as oppossed to regular IE
emptykube: You have to sign in to use it
anneliese: That's just plain silly!
emptykube: well...yes...but the service is free with my dsl and its really pretty on the eyes and I can check my MSN mail and real email at the same time and, well...did I mention its really pretty on the eyes?
anneliese: Well, I like using AOL Communicator for checking email...I can do AOL mail as well as all other email accounts in one fell swoop.
emptykube: see I also have an aversion to AOL, but my wife likes it and we got roots in AOL that go back like 8 years. hard to give that up
anneliese: AOL has its advantages, although they are diminishing. Still it is hard to give up.
emptykube: cm are you still here?
emptykube: if cm is awol teh I might just abandon this for the AOl chat exclusively.
anneliese: I think CM is gone.
emptykube: okay...see you on AOL
anneliese: So, let's cut out of here, I'll capture the log and close it.

System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Dave!
davek: Hi Anneliese.
System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
davek: Hi CM
anneliese: Hi CM!
camidon: Hiya faithful chatters!
anneliese: Well, I've downloaded TWiki, but that is as far as I have gotten on that end.
camidon: Well, the initial email has brought Joe G onboard, and Herbie too. That's all so far I'm afraid
davek: Good. Did you read my long post?
anneliese: I think it is better to start small. That way you can get ground rules established firmly and early.
camidon: That's a start, Anneliese.
camidon: Yep, the one with your 4 categories?
anneliese: Which long post?
davek: Yea, the one with the four catagories.
camidon: I went through that one an organized it numerical, inserted a few more thoughts, and a fifth category entitled: Story Construction.
camidon: Not on the bboard yet, but that list was great Dave.
anneliese: I believe that I did, but I'm looking for it now.
camidon: Great starting point.
davek: What is "Story Construction?"
camidon: Things to iron out about the actual "anthology". Is it a contonuous story vs seperate stories? How do we break up the timeline as writers. Do we choose? Just more thoughts.
anneliese: I think that is a decision for you as the leaders of this project to make.
camidon: With your list, (I basically just tinkered for my own benefit) we can proceed fairly organized through a lot of the initial details that need to be worked out.
davek: CM, I think you and I have a bit different ideas of what this is about. I think of it as building a universe in which the E ship is a major event. You (I think) have a more focused concept of the backround for the E ship anthology.
camidon: I think that's true. This is why we get to iron things out together?
davek: I missed at least one major area - medicine.
davek: They are not exclusive.
camidon: Dave, I will send you my "rendition" of your first list at some point.
davek: Great CM. Annaliese that TWiki looks great too.
anneliese: TWiki looked like the best one to me.
davek: And easy too. No database or version problems with php.
anneliese: I'll put it up on the SFWW site with links from the SFWW homepage, I think.
davek: Will it be protected?
anneliese: If that doesn't work, I have a server running in my office.
anneliese: It will be protected, one way or another. I envision a login step in order to use the software.
davek: I've heard that one of the problems with fiction based on Star Trek, for instance is that publishers don't want to take the chance on copyright voilations.
anneliese: I think we will want a page on the SFWW site to describe the project, but only registered participants can actually get to the working areas.
davek: That is why I started the Open SOurce idea.
davek: And Wiki has some kind of license too.
anneliese: I don't see those kinds of problems.
anneliese: It is a GNU license. Should be fine for our purposes.
camidon: Sent it to you, Dave. Crossing the virtual realm as we type.
davek: Think of it from the publishers viewpoint. If different authors are writing in the same world they may worry about infringments.
anneliese: I think you guys have come up with a good beginnings of a rough draft.
anneliese: I don't think so, Dave, there are collaborative projects like this all the time.
davek: Not the Wiki stuff the E ship universe.
davek: Not the Wiki stuff the E ship universe.
davek: Are they published? Can you point me at one?
camidon: That's an interesting idea, Dave. Hadn't thought about that.
anneliese: My hubby got hooked on 'Thieves World' which was honchoed by Lyn Abbey and Lyn Asprin ( I think)
anneliese: Very successful fantasy series.
camidon: I can think of think of "The PLanet Pirates" by Moon, Nye, and a third author. Each basically wrote a book, but it was in the same "world"
anneliese: Bunches o books.
davek: I heard it said that "worrying" comes from being a programmer. Programers have to think of all the thing that can go wrong and take care of them. Drives my wife nuts.
camidon: I don't think it's common., though
anneliese: Yep, and there's the Catfantastic series edited by Andre Norton.
anneliese: Ours will be somewhat different in that most of these things that are published have well-established writers behind them.
camidon: Would we need something like, everyone that writes a story needs to sign some waiver or release form? (working for the government, my life is filled with these, even in my lowly position)
davek: And the Kzin books started by NIven. BUt did the authors have explicet permission before they started.
anneliese: We might want to draft something, but essentially what we are talking about is assignment of copyright.
davek: I think we need to use one of the public licenses out there- Gnu, wiki....
davek: I think we need to use one of the public licenses out there- Gnu, wiki....
anneliese: Basically, you two become editors for a project. You will 'invite' authors to participate. But you retain editorial control.
davek: We can even write a book about the universe, time lines, technologies and invite anyone to write in it.
camidon: Hmmm, it sounds like you 2 know a whole lot more than I do.
camidon: That's a cool idea, Dave.
anneliese: Wiki is simply an authoring tool. Really, it isn't absolutely necessary, but should be helpful.
camidon: I guess, I can look at it as if Dave and I are editors. Gosh that9;s a strange feeling.
anneliese: We all know a little bit, but the pieces of our knowledge come together nicely.
davek: There is some kind of wiki license. It has to do with multiple people editing something but the work belongs to all. I'll try to find a reference.
anneliese: You have to be editors. Someone has to control, coordinate and organize.
camidon: You are right, Anneliese.
camidon: What did we get ourselves into, Dave?
anneliese: The wiki license is going to relate to using wiki, modifying it and distributing wiki-like applications, not the stories we create using it.
camidon:
anneliese: gotta love those smileys!
anneliese: Think of it this way, CM. You get to write the rejection slips!
camidon: It will be good to get a communal site for this projcet. Then we';ll be able to do that "outline" As we step by step, make decisions about the world, we'll need a place to put them so that all who are interested can see them and discuss them (for those that can';t attend the chats).
anneliese: I should be able to dedicate time this weekend to getting the site up.
camidon: Oh boy!
anneliese: So, what was it we were supposed to accomplish tonight?
davek: I'm being my usual too terse self. The has been a license written for users of a wiki. It refers to the text posted on the wiki. The idea is that if you post it you are assigning your copyrights to the public.
anneliese: My brain is mush!
camidon: Well, it doesn't appear that anyone else is going to make it on time. Do we actually want to begin delving into our "world"?
camidon: I figured we'd meet, and at some point we have to jump into this word to make it "reality".
anneliese: I don't think we will be using the wiki to produce the stories, but to park ideas for the stories. And it is going to be a private collaboration. From the little I read, that is one of the purposes of TWiki.
camidon: So if there aren't anymore overarching things to talk about (i.e. copyrights and setting up WIKI, etc)
anneliese: If it isn't, then I have other authoring collaboration software that we can use to the same purpose.
camidon: are there? When it comes to these things, I think you two do know more than I!
anneliese: GA, CM
anneliese: Hazzards of being a programmer...reading the documentation!
camidon: Dave, do you want to jump into the "world" tonight? Are we ready for that?
davek: We can start. I had those questions posted. We can pick a few of those.
camidon: I would say let's start with the "tech" section of your list Dave, as that will affect many of the other sections.
camidon: It will affect the ship
camidon: and the first "launch date"... Etc...
anneliese: Do you want to set up some organized launch effort, with mission control, long range plans, etc...or think more organically?
camidon: Vell, In your list, you have FTL? WIth a NO? For the three of us here. Do we agree that there should be NO FTL within this world?
davek: I started this once but I didn't have a story in mind so it was too much work for just playing around.
camidon: More organically? As to FTL: I say NO.
anneliese: I don't think it matters a whole bunch, but no FTL is fine...I think your premise might work even with instantaneous travel.
davek: If we allow FTL the either the ship gets passed in flight or we just move the target planet out so that the travel time is still very long. I say no FTL>
davek: Was it Elizabeth who said no FTL communication?
anneliese: By organic, I mean that there might be more than one kind of evolution...there might be one for life in a vessel, and another for life on a planet.
anneliese: Yep, I think Elizabeth said that.
davek: Someone said no "ansible" which is an Enders Universe instant communication device.
camidon: Perhaps it would work with FTL. But to start with. No FTL. (perhaps there can always be a future story about this.) But there's decision 1. No FTL.
camidon: Ah, I see, Anneliese
anneliese: Organic evolution depends upon isolation.
davek: WIth current physics it would be hard to justify FTL. But there is enough wiggle room for FTL comms.
anneliese: FTL makes isolation more difficult.
anneliese: (some of us have problems with current physics)
camidon: Ah, so, based on the idea, it makes logical sense to exclude FTL, as evolution depends on isolation. Also, current physics would make FTL hard to justify.
camidon: I'm for sticking to current physics as much as possible, at least in the first interation of this world.
anneliese: At least as our current scientific understanding allows, isolation is important.
camidon: So, how about something a little more difficult: What about the advent of AI? It's a common SF theme, but in the near future how feasible is it?...
anneliese: As a computer programmer, I don't believe in AI at all.
davek: I think in fifty years it will be real.
camidon: To me, you still need that moment of "awakening" as like the moment life first came into existence--from nothing, into life.
camidon: If we have AI, how do we justify that moment, when we don't even understand our "moment" of sudden life.
camidon: Second, there's the "moment" of "awareness" stacked on top of that.
anneliese: I think knowledge bases will get very good, machines will get smart, but AI is not much more than a smart machine to me.
davek: How smart is that? Too smart and it's like superman. He is so powerful why does he have any problems?
camidon: By "smart," do you just mean super fast? Capable of solving complex problems instantly, but not "knowing" that it's doing it?
anneliese: Intelligence and awareness are not the same thing.
camidon: Dave, Why fifty years?
davek: I'll be dead then. You can't collect on any bets.
camidon: lol
anneliese: What is the purpose for AI?
anneliese: Beyond an intellectual exercise, that is?
davek: t is a problem solver.
camidon: Don't know Anneliese. I would probably say NO to AI initially. But who is to say someone couldn't write a story about a ship9;s computer becoming "AI"/aware.
anneliese: That is still a machine.
davek: If it is so smart then all problems become tell the AI what we know and it picks the best choice of action. A real conflict killer.
camidon: WOuld your AI Dave, be "aware" Know that it exists? And that it can "die"
anneliese: Folks can write stories like that, but I haven't read one yet that really makes a case for self-awareness.
anneliese: You only need a good computer with a good knowledge base for that, Dave.
davek: If we can come up with a way to limit the AI. Niven started his Known Space series without AIs. He had to explain why and he postulated that AIs go insane--comatose really--after a short time of operation.
anneliese: Don't get me wrong! I can make a case for machines being self-aware...in the same way that rocks are.
camidon: or is it just a really fast "problem solver?" I do believe in extrapolating current computing trends into faster and smaller machines that allow us to do many things. However I don't ascribe to "awareness"
anneliese: <==agrees with CM
davek: I can't prove that I am aware. How can I test a machine?
anneliese: You don't hang with psychics, Dave!
camidon: I'll vouch for you, Dave.
davek: And I have my suspicions about you Chris.
camidon: But, I do see your point
anneliese: I think that if you want to include AI, then you have to define what AI means in your world.
camidon: <we're really just a bunch of comedians posing as writers, and the smileys don't help!>
anneliese: Otherwise, use some social/political reason for eliminating it.
davek: Bummer A. I hate it when someone uses my own ideas against me.
anneliese: lol, CM
davek: You're right we need to define what we're talking about.
camidon: Good point. Dave, what is your definition of AI?
camidon: Anneliese? Yours?
davek: Smilelys are the laugh track. But they started as a way to tell the other person that you're not serious. There is no body laungage oin a chat room.
anneliese: My definition of AI would be a living being not created out of a procreative process.
davek: To me AI is a mechanical intelligence that passed the Turing test.
anneliese: That kind of AI is likely pretty close.
davek: Does that mean organic?
camidon: To me, "AI is a machine that "knows" it can "die". If it is turned off/destroyed, that it will no longer "be"
anneliese: I think CM and I are coming to a similar viewpoint.
davek: That's the theme for the first story I ever wrote.
anneliese: From different directions.
camidon: ====> Agree with you Anneliese
anneliese: Except that awareness of death is not a valid definition of self-awareness.
davek: I would like to have AIs but to be able to limit how smart they are.
davek: How does it die if you just reload a backup?
anneliese: I want really smart machines, not necessarily AI.
davek: How smart is that?
camidon: How would you limit it, Dave?
davek: Human smart?
anneliese: What is human smart?
anneliese: That is going to evolve too, I think.
davek: That's my problem. I'm not sure how to limit it. We can say no AIs smarter than an IQ fof 150. but WHy the limit?
davek: Maybe if we make them too smart they go autistic.
anneliese: That is way to artificial of a definition, and I want my navigational computer to be 'smarter' than that.
anneliese: lol, Dave.
anneliese: What I don't want is a machine that can determine my destiny. I want to do that...even if I as I ask the machine to genetically modify me and my descendents.
camidon: I think my def, basical comes from Ellison, beacuse "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" influenced me greatly.
camidon: I agree with that last comment, Anneliese
anneliese: That is where I would limit AI, I guess.
davek: What is the limit and why is it there?
camidon: So, here's a tangent question. If we don't come to a consensus about an issue. What do we do? Do we shelve that issue to later, for more discussion? Do we take a vote?
davek: At this point we shelve it. BUt at some point we need an answer.
anneliese: Good question, CM. Again, as editors...that is an important issue to decide.
davek: We need an odd number of editors.
anneliese: Questions like this might become 'homework' for us all to think about, research, and consider later.
davek: NOt odd editors.
anneliese: I like odd editors (wish I had a goofy smiley here).
camidon: However, I also think nothing is 100% set in stone. maybe 98%. Because someone who goes to the WIP page, who hasn't come to a chat, may suddenly have a great insight.
anneliese: Until contributions come in that define/require an answer, it can be left open.
anneliese: After that, a ruling has to be made.
camidon: Well, Dave. If we tack on Mike, he can be the third Editor, it times of indescion, when we finally have to go one way or another.
davek: Good to me.
camidon: Good point, Anneliese. Once stories come in, there's NO changing the "laws" of the world.
davek: A trilateral commision.
anneliese: Sounding pretty official here.
camidon: Splendid.
anneliese: Want to try another question?
camidon: Why don't we temporaily shelve the AI discussion, we can all think about it, and perhaps at another chat session, if we have diffent people we'll bring it up again?
camidon: However, this discussion is fantastic.
anneliese: When the Wiki gets up, that will be a perfect place to explore AI.
davek: On the WIP page we'll have an AI section and people make their recoomendations. At some point if someone is writing a story and needs an answer we vote.
camidon: How about Nanotech?
camidon: (independent of AI, that is)
anneliese: Inevetable, I think.
anneliese: Unless a group outlaws it for religious reasons.
camidon: I agree. Things are getting smaller and smaller... The trend will continue in my mind
camidon: The only things that won't get smaller or things we have to physically interact with, i.e., touch.
davek: I'm not too sure what nanotech is. Is geneticly created bacteria that excrete diamonds nanotech?
anneliese: I agree.
anneliese: My definition of nanotech is the miniaturization of machines to molecular sizes.
camidon: Oh, here we go again! First, let's everyone give a quick nanotech def.
davek: Does nanotech only include small mechanical machines?
camidon: I agree with thta def, Anneliese.
anneliese: A machine (my definition) performs a mechanical function.
anneliese: The machine itself can be composed of anything.
anneliese: Go back to the 7 (?) basic machines: wheel. lever, etc.
camidon: I say, yes, Dave, beacuse of the root "tech"
anneliese: A bacteria or virus could be a machine if it produces a useful function.
camidon: However, we are using bacteria and things today in the application of the planet. THings such as biological remediation. Sending in bacteria to eat nasty materials and turn them into benign things
davek: At very small scales mechanical gets close to chemical.
anneliese: Yes, there is good research on 'chemical' machines going on now.
anneliese: In other words, creating specifically shaped molecules to do work.
anneliese: So, if someone wants to use nanotech in their story, I would think it has to be allowed.
davek: I'll believe in microtech but nano as usually portrayed in SF -- no.
anneliese: <==agrees with Dave.
anneliese: Most of what is in SF as nano is just plain silly.
camidon: So,the nanotech, just needs to be rooted in current scientific trends correct?
davek: Part of the problem has to do with control. How does it sense its environment and change its behavior.
camidon: extrapolated to the future?
anneliese: Why do you think it does that, Dave?
davek: What was Criton's latest book. Swarm or ...
davek: We have this little machine. What is its job?
anneliese: Let's eat some and find out!
camidon: I see nanotech as a "field". Therefore each little machine, or bacteria, or whatever, always has a specified purpose.
davek: Let's pick one.
anneliese: <==agrees with CM
camidon: I.E. Bacteria altering one chemical to another.
davek: So it has to sense the correct chemical on which to act.
camidon: Therefore, as long as "nanotech" ascribes to current scientific trends, it can do MANY things.
camidon: Perhaps, we could make a little machine, or alter a bacteria, to "eat" cancerous cells.
camidon: stuff like that
davek: How does it tell a cancerous cell from a normal cell?
camidon: I would argue against rigourously defining "nanotech" except that it cannot go against current scientific trends. It cannot jump into the realm of fantasy.
anneliese:
davek: I guess I think of nanotech as "machines" that go around and physically do things. Too much Star Trek Borg nanites.
camidon: Lol, Anneliese.
davek: This is teh fun part.
anneliese: Those are broaching fantasy. IMO. The editorial control might come in here.
camidon: The is fun, in exactly the way Anneliese is portraying. Intelligent minds clashing, but respectably, and civilly!
davek: CM, you're right we are staying in a logical extrapolation of current science.
camidon: I agree, Anneliese.
camidon: So, does this work, for "nanotech". YES, but "ept that it cannot go against current scientific trends. It cannot jump into the realm of fantyas" d
anneliese: Works for me.
camidon: And, as newly coined editors, we can always say, "that's" too unrealistic.
anneliese: With our known universe of writers, I doubt you'll have any problems with this.
camidon: I don't envision too much easier.
davek: WHo was it that said - When an expert says something is possible he is usually right. When he says it is immpossibel he is usually wrong.
anneliese: Good one, Dave.
camidon: Anything created as "nanotech" must have a specified purpose to it. See above examples.
anneliese: Where do we go from here?
davek: Home? Getting late.
anneliese: Next steps?
camidon: Good steps. Good steps.
anneliese: Yep, kind of getting late for me...buy you two can continue all night!
camidon: I can stay longer, if you can, Dave. I knowit's late for you Anneliese.
anneliese: (you'll just have to figure out how to do your own logging)
davek: Let's get the wiki going. We need to promote it to the group.
anneliese: You were right, CM, this is also very fun. I wish we could work out a mutually convenient time to do it more often!
davek: This will succed or fail based on participation. Maybe we can use a critique date to send out the univere to the group and ask for critiques.
camidon: As long as I don't crash, I'll just cut and paste this log. (I've been doing that every so often)
anneliese: That's how I do it. Just don't cut and paste into Word. That crashes everything for me.
camidon: "This will succed or fail based on participation" I agree. BUt we've got a good start. Joe, Herbie, Dave K, CM, Anneliese, Elizabeth, are all onboard. It's a good start.
davek: I hope they're not here because this was a "special" chat.
anneliese: Yes. A very good start. Would it make sense to have everyone write their answers (with opinions) to Dave's questions then circulate that for discussion.
camidon: I hope for more, but right now I think we have enough that we can really do something fun, and darn right cool.
anneliese: I probably should have sent another reminder...thought yours would be enough.
davek: I'm for anything that improves my odds of getting published.
anneliese: Good point!
camidon: I thought about that, Anneliese. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow. Once we get the new communal site up, we may not need to circulate them
anneliese: Until we get everyone on board, and in the habit of using the tools we put into place, we should depend on sending frequent emails.
camidon: Random time, people are busy. We'll just keep tossing out chat dates, and try to get more people here.
anneliese: Next Monday is the AOL chat date. I don't think we can be discussing this there...don't know if I can host two chats simultaneously...hmmm.
camidon: Sounds good. Tomorrow, I'll send out another email (with Dave's list attached) and with what we've discussed tonight.
anneliese: I'll certainly plug the project with who ever shows up.
anneliese: And I will post the log in the forum.
davek: Don't make the email too long.
camidon: I'll try not to.
camidon: My last one was a little on the long side.
anneliese: Maybe just start with the tech questions as the first round.
camidon: Dave, do you want to try meeting BEFORE the AOL chat for an hour? Set that up as our next World building discussion?
camidon: I'll do that, Anneliese. Then I don't have to even attach anything.
anneliese: Is that too early for you?
davek: NOt too early to participate but maybe too early to remember.
davek: I should be able to make it.
anneliese: I'll include it in my chat reminder (hopefully I'll remember!)
camidon: I'll send out the time, and I'll show up in the chat room at 7:00pm MDT (9:00pm EDT)
davek: It's a date.
camidon: in this next email that is (I will try to keep it short, I will!)
anneliese: Sounds great.
camidon: Excellent.
camidon: <writing myself numerous post it notes>
davek: Anneliese, I'll send you what Iwas trying to describe about that license.
davek: WHat's the AOL topic?
anneliese: Do that. I believe that I understand the license and we can get around it (or it will not be applicable).
anneliese: I believe that the AOL chat will be an open chat unless I invent something else
anneliese: I believe that the AOL chat will be an open chat unless I invent something else.
anneliese: Shall we call it a very productive night, then?
davek: If it's open then why not make it a WIP intro.
davek: Or will that scare off some people?
camidon: Sounds good to be, Anneliese. It's late, late for you!
anneliese: I can try to do that. You'll have to feed me material.
davek: Yes, time to say goodnight.
camidon: I don't see why it would scare off people. It's not like tons of folks show up anyway, right?
anneliese: Aww, I only have to be back up in 7 hours!
anneliese: True, CM. And most aren't SFWW members anyway.
davek: Bye. See you Monday.
camidon: Thank you, Anneliese, your support and help is greatly motivating me. So thank you.
anneliese: It's a date.
camidon: Have a good night all
anneliese: :::blushing::: you're welcome!
anneliese: Niters!

davek: HI guys.
anneliese: Hi Dave!
anneliese: Hi CM!
anneliese: Thanks for all the stuff you guys have been sending.
davek: No problem.
anneliese: Sorry that I haven't gotten to do much with it, though, it's been a crazy week.
anneliese: I'm behind on everything.
davek: Did i kick CM off again?
camidon: Nope, I'm here, I finally downloaded a new web browser---I just got back from work, some I'm making dinner
camidon: Now I don't crash anymore! Yay!
davek: We had buffalo burgers.
anneliese: Yay! CM....Pizza here. Too tired for anything requiring more work.
camidon: I was going to email you, Anneliese, about tonight's chat, and how Dave and I were going to waylay my chat, for another topic--SFWW world building.
anneliese: Cool. Whatever you guys want is good with me.
camidon: but I got busy. I'm being lazy tonight too. Just a frozen pizza with some extra mushrooms.
anneliese: Extra mushrooms...too much work. Straight out of the box and into the oven for me!
camidon: I don't think my story will draw too many tonight. However, Mike Marsh said he would be here to talk about the world building. Hopefully he'll show if he can.
anneliese: We can give folks a few more minutes...or start right away, if you want.
camidon: Lol, Anneliese.
anneliese: Do I take your smiley to indicate that you aren't too satisfied with your sub?
camidon: The mushrooms sure add a lot of heavy lifing to the job of constructing dinner!
anneliese: lol
Elizabeth: Hi everybody!
camidon: It's not that, Anneliese, but I figured 1) It's fairly long, and 2) rather dark and depressing, and 3) The main character is none to likable. THe group tends to shy away from these and find them rather tasteless.
davek: OK scrolling is working for me now. Don't know why I had to logoff and back in.
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth! Topic is going to be worldbuilding tonight.
camidon: Hi Elizabeth
anneliese: I'm jealous, Dave. Scrolling and history worked for me last week, but no one was here.
davek: About CM's e ship universe in particular.
davek: The long weekend made me forget what day it was.
emptykube: hello everyone
Elizabeth: hi Mike!
anneliese: No problem. I was too braindead to do any meaningful chatting.
davek: We have had some discussion in the forum about it. It seems to be moving along.
camidon: Yah (and if anyone does want to toss in a comment about my story too, then that's fine too :hehe:)
anneliese: Hi Mike!
camidon: Hi, Mike
anneliese: I'm going to have to check out the forum...haven't looked at the posts for at least a week.
emptykube: hello annelies, hello elizabeth, hello dame, hello cm
Elizabeth: Same here. This week's been nutso. Kiddo has pinkeye.
anneliese: Bummer. Pinkeye is such a pain.
camidon: ugh, Pink Eye. Yikes. no fun
Elizabeth: He wasn't supposed to go out this weekend, since he was still contagious, but he was soooo bored and restless...little gas molecule.
Elizabeth: Ionized gas molecule at that.
emptykube: kids and pink eye are like opposie magnetic poles we went through a couple of months last year of rotating pink eye around the family.
Elizabeth: ouch! My condolences, Mike.
anneliese: Well, Does anyone want to start the worldbuilding conversation?
camidon: But yes, the discussion about the E ship universe have been progressing. We're up to a 2nd page on the bboard! (Yay, me, Mike, and Dave)
davek: Is Eddy going to join us?
camidon: Don't know.
Elizabeth: Don't know for sure, Dave. I haven't heard anything from him.
camidon: I'll say a few things, Anneliese , bring you and E up to date
anneliese: Thanks. GA, CM
emptykube: hmmm..."start the worldbuilding conversation"??? "And then there was light....and this was good.."
camidon: Dave and I chatted a little bit last night, as well as with MIke on the bboard...
emptykube: missed last nights chatting...got caught up in playing daddy and forgot about it
camidon: We want to start a communal SFWW world-building project, based on my E-ship idea, which was briefly stated in my story "Time Enough, Never Enough TIme"
davek: I'm always looking for ways to intice new mwmbers. I'm hoping we can promote this worldbuilding as a lure for new members.
Elizabeth: A shared universe, something like Thieves World or Star Wars?
camidon: Anyone in the group who is interested, can contribute to the project. The project will be a collection of short stories...
anneliese: This sounds like fun!
Elizabeth: <=== agrees w/Anneliese
davek: I'm thinking of a sort of "open source" universe.
Elizabeth: Something more original, in other words.
camidon: Focusing around a colonization theme: Evolving to fit the specifics of a planet, with a ship taking millions of years to cross the cosmos. That's the nugget of the idea, and Dave, Mike, and my bantering has started spiraling in many directions.
emptykube: cm's idea is using a generation ship to promte evolution of the "crew" to meet the conditions of the planet destination instead of terraforming the planet. Ship would travel for exceptionally long time spans.
Elizabeth: Where you have some basic parameters, but each writer contributes something to the overall universe.
camidon: We would get together for chats (hopeful) and outline the specifics of the world, then go off and write short stories.
davek: I'm thinking that with genitic engineering the times can be shortened by a lot.
camidon: So: 2 things...
camidon: 1) Dave would like to talk about WIKI, (right Dave?), software that will aide in the outline and creation of this communal world, and 2) I'd like to send out an email to the group later this week about this, see if we can't get one or two more people interested, and as Dave mentioned, put it on our website as a possible means to interest new memebers.
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
davek: If we build this future history thenthere can be any number of ships and even stories of those left behind.
camidon: <catching breath> I think that's the basics
emptykube: dave: genetic engineering might be a better tool, or at least "guided" development because relying on evolution to randomoly select for certain traits might not go exactly as hoped.
anneliese: It sounds great to me.
camidon: Ahh, I think that's right, "guided" development is really more what I'm think of than true "evolution"
anneliese: Sign me up, and publish your ideas to the group...mention the forum.
camidon: Their is an end point of the evolution we want.
davek: Of course there might be members of some religion who want to do it naturally.
anneliese: But then...how 'natural' is selective breeding anyway?
davek: That would be another shi.
camidon: But there are a hundred (if not more) possible stories about the "evolution" and the everchanging generations onboard the ship (or multiple ships)
anneliese: We could use this chat to begin with, but another slot would be better in the long run, I think.
emptykube: cm...I'd like to get the whole group involved if possible, including our hosts. This is the kind of project that could be a real fun learning experience. We can even circulate the individual stories, critique them, but instead of offering random thoughts, we'd be working toward getting them right for the "anthology".
anneliese: Sounds like a great plan, Mike.
anneliese: Dave, what is the purpose of this software?
camidon: I agree, Mike... and before we get too much further into this, Dave, would you like to discuss what this "WIKI" is and how it would aid this project?
anneliese: <==hands mike over to Dave
camidon: <gosh, thinking way too much alike, Anneliese, (pizza, the timing of our comments.) Strange
anneliese: Scary, CM
davek: Wiki is a web technology that lets anyone edit a page on the web. The idea is that instead of chats or forums where the content is not kept the page is edited and is always around.
anneliese: Must be because we both live in states beginning with the letter ';C'
davek: I posted some links on the forum. In particular the wikiopedia (sp?) is done this way.
anneliese: I installed a piece of software like that recently. I could put it up on my server, if you want to check it out also.
davek: check out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sandbox
camidon: lol. Anneliese
davek: There are a lot of versions. Wiki refers to the idea not a particular package. Some are based on perl and others php.
anneliese: I think the one we were playing with was PHP...gotta look up the name of it!
camidon: In this way, we can all, always see the current story idea outline, and also, perhaps, then post written stories there too, for critique and comments
anneliese: Wikipedia is currently offline as a result of some database troubles.
Elizabeth: That would be helpful.
anneliese: If we want to take things totally private, I also have a file server running in my office.
emptykube: we could also keep "bible" up as well.
camidon: We can also, always edit the pages as needed. And if I recall, it will always note changes and keep prior page versions
anneliese: And post comments to pages, I suspect.
anneliese: As well as keeping dictionaries, etc.
emptykube: http://wiki.org/wiki.cgi?TheSoftware
emptykube: try this site
davek: I'm not sure how much protection you can give to pages or parts of pages.
camidon: "'d like to get the whole group involved if possible" This would be the ultimate goal, however I think most of the members on the email list have crumbled into dust. I hold out hope though.
emptykube: wiki seems to center around the concept of free exchange of ideas...may not respond well to "privatization"
anneliese: Some of the collaboration software that I have been exploring has that feature.
emptykube: boy my spelling sucks tonight
camidon: Also, the way I see it, is that Mike, Dave, and I can spear head the project, so you 2 don't take on any added responsibilities, save for maybe participating in the idea itself.
emptykube: yes...project requires anneliese and elizabeth to be participants at producing fiction!
camidon: We can be the contacts (or 1 or 2 of us can) and kind of "lead" the idea in a way
Elizabeth: I would like to participate...at least on the writing end.
anneliese: lol
anneliese: Yes, I prefer to participate as a writer. However, I will see to getting the software installed, if we choose to go that way.
camidon: Then, looking into the future as all scifi authors do, this world-building come become a staple of SFWW. WHo knows, eventually the group could be creating multiple worlds.
anneliese: This could be a really interesting long-term occupation.
davek: Let's take it one universe at a time.
emptykube: some of waht we have so far is 1) CM's idea, and 2) Dave has brought up the idea of a miniblackhole power source. 3) I suggested instead of building ships hollowing out asteriods and using them as ships.
anneliese: Or pre-occupation.
camidon: I don't mind kind of "leading the way"/being the contact, though Dave and MIke, you 2 certainly can "be in charge" too.
davek: Maybe there are two factions, one using asteroids and the other all hand built.
emptykube: we aslo were debating the merits of including AI's
anneliese: Likely, this is going to be something that requires at least 2 of you to honcho...depending on how you divvy responsibilities.
camidon: With a couple of us "leading the way" I think things would flow smoother. My original idea has blossomed so much with the two of you giving so many ideas to it.
emptykube: I will try to handle some responsibilities as work and family life allow
camidon: So, now to some of the details, I take it?
emptykube: I think once the writing starts to come through the group, others will become interested.
anneliese: Go for it!
camidon: I wish I had sat down and outlined the most crucial points about this e-ship idea. Darn work.
davek: I think we build a universe that has as few restraints as possible. Like asteroid ships or not.
camidon: Me and my outlining...
davek: But some things have to be constrained so the universe is consistant, like AI's.
anneliese: Start with the most basic principles from which no one is allowed to stray.
emptykube: yes...dave. we all have very different writing ways, so as few restrictions as possible would be great.
camidon: Yes, and timeframe hundreds of years vs thousands, vs millions.
davek: And aliens. Do they exist or not?
anneliese: I.e., generational ships, modifying colonists to fit new worlds.
camidon: So restraints needed are 1) Do AI's exist, 2) Timeframe. 3) Aliens. what else.
emptykube: Aliens and AI's should exist, to offer balance otherwise the story becomes to human centric.
anneliese: From there, each writer is going to answer the questions he/she discovers.
emptykube: agrees with anneliese
davek: The big question is: Why do they change themselves? Humans have changed the environment to suit us. Why change now?
davek: The big question is: Why do they change themselves? Humans have changed the environment to suit us. Why change now?
camidon: ah yes the ultimate basic idea: that should guide all of our decisions, so first we need to agree on the basic idea.
anneliese: For me, AI's probably don't exist, although computers do.
emptykube: if not AI's how about virtual personalities?
anneliese: Good question, Dave, also good germ for a story.
emptykube: Yes dave...that's a good question to takle as part of a story.
davek: Another big question is why go at all? Why go to the star? Either some physical property, such as the star shows evidance of being a wormhole to another star or "dimension" or there is evidence of life, either intelligent or not. Or is the population or political pressure in the Sol system too great? Is pure exploration good enough? If so why not send probes?
camidon: Well, here, let me give you the basis for my original idea.
anneliese: GA, CM
camidon: For millions of years, humans have evolved, and they have expanded across the the world. From the first people in Africa, humans spread into the mid-East, from there into Europe, China, Australia, and eventually from the Americas, all the while evolving, and all the while taking vast amounts of time to move and evolove...
camidon: So, now that we've colonized all the continents (land) as the human population continues to expand, it will look to the skies. Space is just the next extension of our evolution...
camidon: For so long, the distances of space have probited serious discussion of colonization, however, when we look at our past, it has taken us millions of years to evolve to where we are today. Therefore the time it would take to cross the cosmos, is know different than the time it took for Humans to evolve into its present form.
Elizabeth: After a few thousand years on colony ships, you could have an interesting argument about whether the colonists, or their descendants, are still human.
camidon: In our modern world, we've begun hyper sensitive to time, and we count every second. Perhaps this is our mistake, and therefore, in order to cross the cosmos, we have to think in vast amounts of time. Therefore, a we cross the voids, year after year, generation after generation, we need to continue to evolve, otherwise we have stopped growing as a species.
emptykube: exactly Elizabeth...the idea leaves room for some amazing topics and stories
camidon: Whew <out of breath again> I think that's it. How badly have I confused everyone?
anneliese: Great observation, CM. So all that is stopping this migration now, is adequate technology, which, as in the Polynesian migrations, can be relatively primitive.
davek: BUt they had a very benign environment.
anneliese: All clear to me (or I'm too dense to know otherwise)
camidon: Exactly! There canoes are our current spaceships.
emptykube: yes anneleise, which is why I thought of using an asteriod. With a ship you have too many parts you have to have technology to make last a long time. But on the inside of an asteriod you can build cities, parks, have a whole confined ecosystem using technology not very much more sophisticated then today's.
anneliese: Dave, it doesn't matter whether you think of the environment as benign or hostile. Colonization is still bound to take place.
Elizabeth: People have colonized some pretty hostile environments on Earth.
camidon: Not totally, Dave. Look at where people have settled: The Arctic eskimos. The Desert Aztecs. The Mountainous INcas. We've settled almost every environment on the planet (the notable exception being underwater)
emptykube: set the thing spinning, give it a nudge in the right direction, let it slow cruise into interstellar space.
anneliese: Exactly, Elizabeth.
camidon: Who knows what we are capable of adapting to next?
anneliese: On the other hand, just building ships to get to the asteroids, and developing from there works too.
camidon: We are constrained only by the limits of our imagination (and sadly money and political agendas)
anneliese: The more private use of space, the cheaper and less political it becomes.
emptykube: I also like the idea of asteriods because it invokes the whole image of humanity living inside caves.
anneliese: Who's to say that the Catholic Church doesn't need to go off world?
camidon: I've been daunted by this idea for a few years now, but this forum, this SFWW collection of writers may be just what this e-gen idea needs to floursih in the million directions it can potential go
Elizabeth: Back to our beginnings, as it were.
emptykube: well...with the child abuse scandal maybe they need to go on the lamb:)
Elizabeth: There are any number of directions it could go.
Elizabeth: lol Mike and Anneliese!
camidon: lol
Elizabeth: Not what Heinlein had in mind when he created the Church of All Worlds, but...;-)
anneliese: maybe not...
emptykube: udes??used
anneliese: So, guys, what would you like to take away from tonight's chat?
davek: It's getting late. What are our next steps? I'm got a few pages of notes to put on the forum.
camidon: Tomorrow (writing a note) I'll email the group about this idea. Dave/Anneliese can you 2 figure out the WIki/software angle?
anneliese: (I should be able to post this log tomorrow.)
camidon: What will work best online, for this communal idea?
emptykube: another thing to consider is that not all humans will participate. some will stay home and follow a differnt path. Do they debvelop FTL and meet the colony ships?
emptykube: develop.sheesh..
anneliese: I'm looking at the WIKI site. Also, I'll see if I can restart that other collaboration software for you all to take a look at.
davek: That will have to be one of the constrints of the universe - no FTL>
camidon: Before we scatter tonight, we should also discuss the possibilites of more chats... The next one will REALLY focus on ironing out the basics of the idea, and what every story needs to have in common.
emptykube: okay...no FTL
anneliese: I think the 6/28 time is an open chat...unless you want to schedule something sooner.
davek: I think we need to step back and decide the mechanics of of the owrldbuilding.
Elizabeth: No ansible, either.
camidon: I agree with Dave. That's pure science fiction (as of now), and I think this universe could be thoroughly based in science of today
emptykube: can we communicate back and forth by email for a bit also? I might not get to too many chats. Of course the forum is good too. Retail makes chatting difficult sometimes.
anneliese: Unfortunately, I am going to be in Chicago from 6/21-6/29.
Elizabeth: Having people on opposite ends of the galaxy communicate instantaneously (and without seriously warping spacetime) is an SF device that annoys the **** out of me.
camidon: Yes, Dave, this is what I mean by setting up another chat, so we can "ecide the mechanics of of the world buildign"
emptykube: Based on today, but science will continue to "evolve" also. We need to be mindful of possibilities or risk appearing niave.
camidon: True, True, Mike
davek: Nano is a big question too.
davek: Nano is a big question too.
camidon: Anneliese, let's grab that 6/28 slot at the very least.
Elizabeth: One thing I've thought about previously, but never been able to put into a story, is a quantum communication device.
anneliese: I'll pencil that in.
emptykube: nano is a yes...its already being devloped in real life...how do you pretend it doesn't grow up?
camidon: I'll inquire about extra (potential) chats in the email tomorrow.
anneliese: Quantum communication devices are probably close to reality.
Elizabeth: It can communicate certain portions of a message at FTL, but only certain parts. And you can't predict next parts.
camidon: I think once we establish the basics of the world, the unbreakable rules (as few as possilbe) then we would need to have chats hardly at all.
anneliese: Then, chats would be basic story critique based.
emptykube: like the idea of using quantum entanglement
davek: Elizabeth, invent it, describe it and put it in the timeline somewhere.
Elizabeth: I even have a title..."The Quantum Oracle"...just no plot.
camidon: However, chats are the best way to iron out the laws of the world, initially.
camidon: Lol, Elizabeth. love that smilet
emptykube: Elizabeth..sometimes a good title inspires a good story
davek: OR maybe the wiki.
Elizabeth: <=== agrees w/CM, just wondering what evenings will be free.
Elizabeth: Thanks, CM, it seemed appropriate.
davek: Talking about humans spreading all over the world gave me the title - Weed Species.
camidon: Dave and I are relatively free, so we can be the mainstays.
camidon: Perhaps we can have a few random chats between now and the 28th to start ironing out details...
davek: OK by me.
anneliese: I don't have too many standing evening commitments (other than SFWW) at this time.
camidon: with Dave and I as the base, we'll set up times, then email you Anneliese, and also the group. Does that work?
camidon: about random chats I mean
Elizabeth: Sounds good to me, CM & Dave.
anneliese: Works for me.
camidon: whoever shows, shows. If some people can make it, great. We'll use their input as much as possible.
anneliese: I'm excited about this.
emptykube: those that can't make it can follow logs?
camidon: I'll try to save chats, Mike, and send them to you, as your one of the "instigators" in this little "plot"
emptykube: ahhh coconspiritors of the world unite!
Elizabeth: bwahahahah!
camidon: Perhaps we'll make a new topic on the bboard, a special place to put the chats about this worlding building "Event"
Elizabeth: good idea, CM.
anneliese: Between logs and the forum, many folks should be able to participate.
emptykube: what do we call the work in progress?
Elizabeth: That way people who follow the boards might get interested.
camidon:
anneliese: Life Cycles?
emptykube: ohhh Life Cycles is niice
Elizabeth: Life/Cycles.
camidon:
anneliese: I liked "weed species" a lot
Elizabeth: Just so I don't have the image of those nasty exercise bikes in my head.
camidon: My working title was: "Generation E" (evolution)
Elizabeth: Any of those titles works for me.
emptykube: how about sfww WIP until we can fine tune one?
anneliese: That works also, CM. Why not continue using it?
davek: World In Process?
camidon: well fiddle sticks, I crashed. So much for saving this chat for myself. <Anneliese, please post this!> I thought my new browzer would fix that. Oh well.
emptykube: world, work..either way
Elizabeth: World in Progress. Wet Paint.
anneliese: So many great titles!
emptykube: LOL
camidon: (must have been the borg smiley)
anneliese: SFWW Wet Paint
emptykube: yes CM...don't you know borg don't smile? of course it crashed!
camidon: How about this: GenE WIP.
emptykube: ooohhh sounds kinky
camidon: That way we know what the WIP is in brief (thinking ahead to future WIPs after this one... Gosh I'm optimistic)
anneliese: Anything you choose to call it, should be fine for now.
davek: That can't hurt attendence.
camidon: lol, mike
Elizabeth: BTW, CM, I love the Borg smiley.
Elizabeth: brb
anneliese: I think this has been a great chat.
davek: CM, are you going to mail the group?
emptykube: hey! I gotta hit the road...my apologies...early day in the am
davek: Bye Mike.
anneliese: Glad you could make it, Mike.
camidon: yep, I'll do it tomorrow (really writing myself the note this time)
camidon: Bye, Mike, thanks for coming and sharing your idea
anneliese: And I have the log captured.
emptykube: me too. I'm excited about this also. could be a fun.
davek: I have a lot of ideas/questions to post to the forum.
emptykube: anneliese you should see a doctor about that and on that note...bye!
anneliese: I hope I have enough time to catch up on the posts already there!
anneliese: Niters, Mike
camidon: I'll try to organize main world issues, so that we can proceed through a next chat with some organization, and make some specific decisions about world issues.
davek: Anneliese, how is updating th elinks going?
anneliese: Slowly. I have notified about half on the list, but received little feedback...so now I will have to revisit those links and see which are changed.
anneliese: I hope to finish off my list of notifications this week, then go on to the other changes/enhancements you and CM have suggested.
davek: Any contacts from youe AOL journal?
anneliese: None yet, but I have created an aol home page that sorts adjacent to the old one on AOL searches.
Elizabeth: Haven't updated it lately. I'll take a look tonight.
anneliese: I made the AOL home page under my acmfox account. I'm going to duplicate it under the HOST account.
camidon: I think we've made good progress. The group is still quiet, but the renewed energy from the core goup (those of us here tonight plus a few others) bold well for the future (and after all this group IS concerned about the future)
Elizabeth: I need to turn in or I'll be a crispy critter tomorrow. Got an 8:30 a.m. appointment at kiddo's school.
anneliese: Also, we get a few email forwarding accounts with the new domain name. Should I set some up?
Elizabeth: Have to convince the school that he's ready for first grade.
davek: Bye, Elizabeth.
camidon: Gnight, Elizabeth,
Elizabeth: Sounds like a good idea, Anneliese.
Elizabeth: Good night, everyone!
anneliese: We can chat/ email later about it.
anneliese: Niters, then, Elizabeth.
anneliese: Glad you could make it.
davek: CM, I'm going to post a bunch of ideas tonight.
camidon: Dave, do you want to try and set-up a near-future chat time? One I could put in the email tomrrow?
anneliese: You guys on MTN time...I'm jealous!
davek: Sure, not Friday but otehrwise OK.
camidon: Ah, yes, if ever I move back east, I will miss the early time zone
camidon: I can do Wed or Sat (booked up a lot this week in the evening--teaching people the "wild cave tour" route through wind cave.
camidon: Either of those work for you?
davek: Wed should be OK. I would think Saturday could be busy. But is Wed too soon?
davek: Let's go for Wed.
anneliese: Either is good. I'll have an easier time remembering Wed, though, since I rarely check email over the weekend.
camidon: Probably, but if you and I can meet, and I get the email out tomorrow, why not?
camidon: Wednesday, then. Same time?
davek: OK.
anneliese: Sounds good.
camidon: If you can show up, Anneliese, that would be great!
anneliese: Boy are we spoiled having our own chat room!
camidon: Boy do I love it though!
anneliese: I'll try...someone's gotta log afterall
davek: That and a wiki should be a good selling point for new members.
camidon: Sounds good.
davek: See you Wed.
anneliese: And now, I really gotta crash. See you all Wednesday!
camidon: I'll take my leave <furiosuly scribbling post-it-notes so I remember all this stuff
camidon: Gnight, you two.
davek: Bye.

anneliese: Hi CM
camidon: Hi, Anneliese
anneliese: The new domain name is live.
camidon: What's new?
anneliese: www.sfwritersworkshop.org
camidon: Cool.
anneliese: It even works!
anneliese: Tomorrow, I'l begin sending emails to our links list.
anneliese: Or the day after.
camidon: awesome. It does, it does!
anneliese: Yep. Hours before it was supposed to go online.
camidon: are you just going to forward www.sfwritersworkshop.org to your site for now?
camidon: Is eventually going to BE out website, this domain name?
anneliese: Yep. I don't see the need to have it's own space.
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: In the future, we can alias it (for a fee), which means that no one would see my web address.
anneliese: Hi Dave!
anneliese: All that would display is the sfwritersworkshop address.
davek: HI, Anneliese, CHris.
camidon: Confused, partly my fault for the poor question wording. So: You';re just forwarding the new domain name to your website?
davek: I got history and scrolling today. Maybe I should buy a lotto ticket.
anneliese: It is a SFWW website, which is being hosted currently on my site.
camidon: Hi Dave
anneliese: That's great, Dave, then you can see my announcement.
camidon: sorry, froze up, missed Dave's first comments. Annoucement?
anneliese: The announcement of the new domain name. You were here for that.
anneliese:
camidon: ah, got it
camidon: You, there Dave? Haven't gotten text from you
davek: Yes, I was checking out the new domain name. Cool.
camidon: Cool.
anneliese: We just get a little bit further every week.
davek: That's what it takes.
camidon: yep, just like writing a story
anneliese: Which reminds me...
anneliese: I'm gonna ask for your help here.
anneliese: I am trying to create an interactive tutorial/entertainment kind of thing about writing sf.
anneliese: Some real content, some animation, some silly stuff.
anneliese: If you have any anecdotes you'd be willing to share with this project, I'd appreciate it.
davek: I was just thinking about something like that for the forum.
anneliese: Well, it can be posted there.
anneliese: I'm doing it to show off some of my information design/director skills as a portfolio item.
anneliese: It can't be something I did commercially...don't have the rights for that.
anneliese: You can find the enneagram tutorial on my site now (again).
anneliese: That's my Flash/shockwave portfolio item.
camidon: So, anecdotes about writing science fiction? Stories about writing science fiction stories?
davek: I was thinking of somethink a bit different.
anneliese: Yes, and/or motivation, lack there of, etc.
anneliese: Well, Dave, I also plan to have a basic outline of how good stories are constructed/developed (ala Amy Sterling's class)
anneliese: I want the anecdotal stuff to use as illustration, and fun along the way.
anneliese: But this is very conceptual, so all ideas are welcome.
camidon: I'll see if I can think of anything over the next few days. Do you just want us to email you? Any form for these anecdotes?
anneliese: Emails are good, or whatever works. No real hurry, this is going to be a work in process.
anneliese: As I begin to construct it, I'll post it for you all to play with and kibbutz.
davek: I haven't been doing this long enough to have any anecdotes. Just me and my computer.
camidon: That's an anecdote, Dave, if a short one.
anneliese: One of the things I'm going to create is a little cartoon of a guy typing away at the computer...I'll name him Dave.
davek: It can be summed up in eddycurrents graphic on the forum.
davek: I'm flattered.
camidon: So are things like: where you get story ideas, which we've talked about a little.
camidon: lol
anneliese: Yep. I love that graphic of eddy's.
anneliese: I'd like to incorporate as many SFWW folks as are willing. Their personas can be real or fictional.
davek: Has anyone heard of "Forward Motion?" It is a writers site.
camidon: nope
anneliese: Send us the link.
davek: The link is - http://www.fmwriters.com/
anneliese: Looks interesting.
davek: Also http://lazette.net/ and http://hollylisle.com/
anneliese: woa, more starry backgrounds.
davek: I think Holly Lisle started it and Lazette is managing it now.
camidon: yep, does look interesting
anneliese: Looks like some interesting articles on the holly Lisle site.
davek: Lots of content on all sites.
davek: Sorry for the digression, we're supposed to talk about AOL and getting members.
camidon: Yeah, the forward motion looks like a great site
anneliese: I'm going to have to spend some serious time checking these out.
davek: The fm site will waste a lot of time.
anneliese: True, Dave, but we are...indirectly.
anneliese: I've also set up another SFWW website page on AOL.
davek: What is that link?
anneliese: It points to our main home page. It's advantage is that it comes up right below the old site on the AOL search.
anneliese: members.aol.com/acmfox
camidon: Yah, we should talk about getting members. We can bag the AOL, since we talked about it last week. If Mike had shown up, well then, it would have been worth revisiting that topic, but since he didn't. Once we're done chatting about these sites, let's breainstorm ideas for new members
anneliese: I also set up a pointer as an AOL group: groups.aol.com/hostwplcacmfox
anneliese: You all can join that one if you want...
anneliese: I just need to send out invitations, I think.
davek: Great idea for that new AOL site.
camidon: I agree with Dave
camidon: Good idea
anneliese: Elizabeth and I are on a mission to find as many places in AOL as possible to advertise SFWW
eddycurrents: ciao?
anneliese: That plus our other links should help promote SFWW.
anneliese: ciao?
eddycurrents: bonsoir
camidon: Yep, let's either use it, or lose it.
eddycurrents: took a minute for stuff to show up
anneliese: Hi Eddy!
anneliese: I didn't see a system message for your entrance.
eddycurrents: I snuck in
anneliese: I guess so!
anneliese: Glad you made it.
camidon: Hi, Eddy
davek: Hi Eddy, I was admiring your forum graphic earlier.
eddycurrents: sums it all up, doesn't it?
davek: You'll have to read the log.
davek: New members. WHere do those hang out?
anneliese: Good question.
camidon: Do we want to move onto one of our topics: Brainstorming ways to get new members?
eddycurrents: #1... activity
anneliese: Go for it.
eddycurrents: that was my $.25
anneliese: lol
camidon: ah, its up from .02$
anneliese: Well, let's start with...how did you find SFWW?
davek: Anneliese said it earlier - advertise.
eddycurrents: web search
camidon: web search
davek: Anneliese and Elizabeth sound like they are going to cover AOL. So that leaves the rest of the world.
eddycurrents: I googled for online writers groups
anneliese: What did you find when you did the web search...what was your search criteria?
eddycurrents: found a site that listed SFWW
anneliese: lol Dave.
camidon: lol
anneliese: AOL has been a major source of members in the past.
camidon: I searched for science fiction writing groups. Found critters and SFWW. Then I joined, oh way back when Mark and Phil?? were the hosts (phil seems wrong... the previous Anneliese)
eddycurrents: I didn't find SFWW site directly but I found a site that listed a few sites, and SFWW was one
anneliese: Elizabeth has also been looking into Yahoo groups. Maybe we can do that to get a pointer as well.
anneliese: Mark & Craig.
davek: Google has a way to get listed - http://www.google.com/webmasters/1.html
camidon: Craig. Ah yes
anneliese: So it sounds like updating the links on other sites is well worth while.
eddycurrents: I would like to see people getting kicked out for non-activity...
System: eddycurrents joined us. Cheers!
davek: At least a warning.
anneliese: I do kick members for inactivity.
eddycurrents: oops I logged myself out
camidon: Once we get some new members and new activity within the group, then I would agree with Eddy.
anneliese: Yes. I'd like to wait for new blood before doing more purges.
camidon: I think more activity might awaken a few sleeping members. I can hope anyway.
anneliese: It probably will.
camidon: But then, I think we should cut the dead weight on the email lists. So many names, and so few participation is depressing.
anneliese: True.
davek: Anneliese, are there any keywords in the SFWW home page?
camidon: So: 1) Visibility of group will get us members, 2) Participation/activity within the group will keep/attract new memnbers.
eddycurrents: not wanting to criticize but...
anneliese: Not too many yet.
eddycurrents: the rules on the website say: To maintain membership, each member must critique at least two stories a month.
eddycurrents: that may be a little too much
anneliese: That is true, but we do allow sabbaticals and we have a bunch of members in that category right now.
eddycurrents: so I'm thinking we should either enforce or change the rules
davek: How many storeis have we had the last few months?
camidon: Your point is taken, Eddy. I agree.
anneliese: We've been having 3-4 stories/month.
camidon: We should be firm, with whatever rules we have/change/create
anneliese: Usually the AOL chat week has not had a story of late.
anneliese: Good point, CM
camidon: I was always a big fan of your monitoring Anneliese, tracking who does how many crits and sending it to the group. I know others rebelled though/didn't like it.
davek: I'm less concerned with non-complianent members then new members.
anneliese: Actually, CM, most folks seemed to like it. I never got any complaints, anyway.
eddycurrents: thing is, we won't attract new members unless the group is active
eddycurrents: we are competing head to head with that "other" sfww now
camidon: I think new members are the first order of business. Once that's established, we can defintaely/should definately reevaluate inactive members and all of our rules
anneliese: I feel that the group is active, even though it is a small subset of the full list.
davek: www.sfww.com goes to Sport Fishing World Wide.
anneliese: You checked that out (so did I)
camidon: You're right, A, it is active, but just not active enough. 3 crits is good for a small group, but for a group of our size and potential, we should have lots more. It's all about expectations, and I expect more crits, not less from a group.
anneliese: You're right, CM
camidon: from this group, that is.
camidon: I would love to see, an active large group with a wide range of crits. However, that means less stories from each member. But I would rather submit 3-4 works a years, if that many, and get 15 crits then submit 12 (as I'm on pace to do) and only get 3 crits...
davek: www.sfww.org is a SF writers site. Maybe associated with Yahoo?
anneliese: in that case, sf=short fiction
camidon: Eventually, small groups could always form within the larger group to critique more works, but with only 3-4 crits from the 3-4 member small group. Those are my ideas and brainstorms, anyway
davek: Ha on me. I read what I expected to see.
anneliese: Well, if we got really large, restructuring would be required. Our current format works well with <40 members.
anneliese: It gets unwieldy when the group gets larger than that.
davek: I suppose rich people worry about what to do with their money, too.
camidon: Yep, it would get unwiedly, but I'd love to face that hurdle when we came to it... and create small subgroups.
anneliese: That is certainly a goal to strive for.
camidon: Dave? Huh? what did I miss? Rich people orry about money? huh?
davek: I'll get our new domain added to Google and maybe Yahoo.
davek: We're worry about the group being too big and we have 4 in this chat.
eddycurrents: yeah rich people say money doesn't buy happiness... either they know something we don't or they don't want us to know
anneliese: lol eddy
davek: Everyone knows you don't buy happiness you rent it.
anneliese: I was just trying to see if google would pull up our site. I noticed the acmfox.com site can now be found.
eddycurrents: google works on links, or at least it used to
eddycurrents: th emore links to your site the higher your ranking
anneliese: They use crawlers.
camidon: Ah, point taken, Dave. However, we are all writers, and we're suppose to dream/create big!
anneliese: And yes, the number of links to your site helps in the ranking.
eddycurrents: of course the google consipiracy theorists say advertisers now jump to the top of the ranking
davek: The crawlers look at the internal keywords. Or they used to.
anneliese: Well, advertisers jump because they pay for the listing.
eddycurrents: so someone must be linking to acmfox...
anneliese: Doubtful.
eddycurrents: I can !
anneliese: My site (and my business) are a very well kept secret.
camidon: Well, soon enough, we should have plenty of links out there, right? PLenty of potential writing sites to "advertise"?
anneliese: (which might be why business is so slow...???)
eddycurrents: we can all get free webspace on yahoo and msn and angelfire etc. and link to acmfox
camidon: IE, Ralan's comes to mind immediately
anneliese: lol, eddy!
eddycurrents: www.acmfox.com
eddycurrents: there's one
anneliese: Yes, as the other sites change their pointers to our new site, hopefully, we'll pass Mark's in the rankings.
eddycurrents: www.acmfox.com
eddycurrents: there's two
anneliese: Don't know about how much good this will do buried in weblogs and forums, eddy.
anneliese: well: www.sfwritersworkshop.org
eddycurrents: have you tried this: go to google and search for "weapons of mass destruction"
eddycurrents: it's quite funny and it shows how google works
eddycurrents: once people starting linking to it, it shot to the top of the rankings and it has been there for a year now
anneliese: so true.
eddycurrents: so we need to link to www.sfwritersworkshop.org in various places
eddycurrents: the webcrawlers should get it in public forums too
eddycurrents: probably not here
davek: So Anneliese gets the links to the old site changed, I'll add the URLs to Google and Yahoo. Whatelse?
davek: I think we need keywords added to the SFWW page.
anneliese: Yes. Let's think of what keywords to add, and I'll do it.
eddycurrents: google doesn't work that way, apparently.. that's the old way... although google won't say exactly how they work
eddycurrents: I think keywords are still in there somehow
eddycurrents: I got listed on yahoo and altavista thru keywords once
camidon: science, fiction, writing, worksop? How about those key words. Oh wait...
davek: Google asks for them when you submit a URL.
eddycurrents: was a bit of a thrill
eddycurrents: ah ok
anneliese: When you submit them with the URL to Google or other search engines, that is a different thing from adding them to the page.
eddycurrents: don't forget: free sex porn viagra blue pill warez mp3 menage-a-trois
anneliese: oh year!
anneliese: yea!, I mean.
davek: I didn't think viagra was that strong.
eddycurrents: I found a site once that had absolutely nothing to do with what I searched for, so I looked at the html... there was about 10 pages of words just copied from a dictionary
eddycurrents: we could try that
davek: We're going after a limited member list.
anneliese: A practice that is frowned upon, which is why keywords are less important to search engines these days, I think.
anneliese: You do want links to show and good descriptive text at the beginning of the page.
davek: I'll look at some sites and send Anneliese what I find.
anneliese: Thanks, Dave, That will be helpful.
davek: I didn't understand your question.
anneliese: Which question?
davek: Showing links, descriptive text?
camidon: I really want to update the links page. I'll start looking up links and writing a 2-3 blurb about it.
anneliese: Web crawlers use links to navigate sites, so it is important how they are constructed.
camidon: Descriptions about the links will help so much.
anneliese: And the text that is shown by the search engine can come from either meta tags, but is usually the text where the keywords was located.
anneliese: I did not mean that these help to get listed with the search engines
anneliese: I don't think that they do.
davek: Well, it's getting late.
camidon: I got to run off before the conclusion tonight, though this has been productive again
anneliese: Oh, yes. I completely lost track of time.
anneliese: This has been a good meeting.
davek: Bye. time does past when you're having fun.
anneliese: Niters.
eddycurrents: yep... time for a little writin'
anneliese: Same time next week. Or time off for the holiday?
camidon: Or so, I won't run off before the conclusion, I'll run off AT the conclusion
camidon: Or so, I won't run off before the conclusion, I'll run off AT the conclusion
davek: Chris T storm coming your way. In Weld now.
eddycurrents: a la prochaine
davek: I'll be here.
camidon: I'm in SD, Dave, though heard Sterling go hit hard the other day, hail, etc
camidon: I'm in SD, Dave, though heard Sterling go hit hard the other day, hail, etc
camidon: I'll be here, most likely
eddycurrents: I'll be here next week then I can go visit Herbie
anneliese: Well, let's talk about writing next week. Any suggestions?
camidon: Got to go, night all
davek: How to do it?
anneliese: Nite then.
davek: Bye.
anneliese: Yea, something writing related.
anneliese: Writing basics, maybe. What separates SF from other fiction.
anneliese: Does good SF have to be good fiction?

anneliese: Hi CM!
camidon: Hi, Anneliese
anneliese: Getting ready for your summer job?
camidon: Already here
anneliese: Well!
camidon: Had a power outage in the cave today, and I got to rundown with 30 flashlights in backpacks. Never a dull moment
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: And you still have a computer to come home to.
anneliese: Hi Dave.
davek: Hi guys.
anneliese: Power outage...must have scared a couple of them.
camidon: my machine is well traveled! Never spent a full year in the same state
davek: Did I kick Chris off again?
camidon: Hi, Dave.
davek: HI
davek: HI
camidon: uh oh, you still receiving me?
davek: I am
anneliese: I wish I had the time (and the money) to go caving.
camidon: yay, didn't get booted
anneliese: yay
anneliese: I just noticed...your names are underlined. Mine is not.
System: Juanita joined us. Cheers!
System: Juanita joined us. Cheers!
camidon: Perhaps some year you will
anneliese: Hi Juanita!
Juanita: Hi everyone
anneliese: Whenever I travel, and I can find a cave system, I go.
camidon: my name is not either, so it must have to do with the user not being underlined
anneliese: Only the regular touristy tours, though.
anneliese: I guess the underline is to help you know your posts.
camidon: Froze up that time. Strange how it's never consistent.
anneliese: Maybe it is a function of the number of folks in the chat?
Juanita: It's the cyberspace bugs
anneliese: Like cyberfleas, they just get into everything!
camidon: I should just get off my cyberbut and download a newer web browser
anneliese: So should I
Juanita: sounds like something I should do
Elizabeth: Hello everybody!
Juanita: HI
camidon: hello
Elizabeth: how is everyone doing?
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth!
anneliese: Just warming up.
Juanita: Long pause -- we're here to talk about the website?
Elizabeth: Sorry I'm late. Had to bathe the five-year-old. Always a messy proposition.
camidon: No complaints here
Juanita: Oh, I found the conversation
anneliese: Yep, we can talk about that, as well as AOL and getting new members.
Juanita: I haven't had a look at the new site
davek: The critique schedule says we're talking about Juanita's story.
Juanita: Probably the age of my system hard and soft. all I get is the starry background
anneliese: Did I goof up the schedule?
Juanita: We can probably fit everything in. There aren't too many of us waiting in line to speak
camidon: So, with regards to AOL and SFWW, Here's what Mike Marsh thought about AOL and SFWW: "I think for SFWW to remain viable, it needs to shake off its AOL strings. As long as SFWW is an "AOL sponsored" group, it can only grow so much. That's part of the problem. " This is what started this chat idea.
anneliese: I'm sorry. I really should look at my calendar once in a while.
Elizabeth: The schedule looks good to me, as does the rest of the site.
Elizabeth: Good work, Anneliese and Dave, and thank you!
camidon: "When the group formed, AOL was structured to nuture groups like ours. Over the years the focus has become more about commercialtainment rather then knowledge, development, understanding, sharing. "
Juanita: As a non-AOLer, what strings?
Elizabeth: Juanita, AOL's made some recent changes that make our mailings more difficult.
camidon: I'm kind of speaking third party, but I thought his ideas were worth discussing
anneliese: Right now, the only strings are one chat a month.
anneliese: Thanks for sharing them, CM
Elizabeth: We're still trying to get details, but it almost sounds like AOL is discouraging ANY kinds of mass mailings.
davek: What are the mailing restrictions?
Elizabeth: Even for groups like ours, where you only get on the list by request.
Juanita: How large is mass
anneliese: They aren't specifically saying.
Elizabeth: Which is part of the problem.
Juanita: What are the options if we aren't AOL sponsored?
anneliese: At this moment, I guess we are acmfox sponsored.
anneliese: Don't know that that means much, however.
camidon: What benefits do AOL provide, if any?
Juanita: I seems to be working.,..
anneliese: In the past, most of our members came from AOL.
camidon: What do we lose if we aren't tied with AOL?
Elizabeth: There are also groups on Yahoo
Elizabeth: that have member lists, chats, etc. without all of the AOL rules.
anneliese: Have we looked into the AOL groups yet?
camidon: Anyone know when the last time we had a new AOL member?
Juanita: What's our percentage?
Elizabeth: I haven't. :::blushes:::
davek: AOL did sponser our web page and chat room, but now we have that through acmfox.
anneliese: Probably a little less than half.
Juanita: and is being part of AOL an incentive for new members?
anneliese: We haven't really gotten any new members at all in over 6 months.
Elizabeth: I don't have exact figures, but at this point I think we have more non-AOL members.
anneliese: Probably longer. Most of that, I think, is attributable to the bad web site links.
camidon: Agrees with Anneliese
Juanita: No wonder we seem a little stagnant
Elizabeth: And now that AOL doesn't let us send chat reminders, it's even less likely that we will pick up new AOL members via chat.
davek: My rough count is 18 AOL and 26 other.
anneliese: OK, I really did mess up. we were supposed to have this discussion next week, and Juanita's story this week.
Juanita: With about a dozen active?
anneliese: A dozen, give or take.
camidon: So, basically, all we lose if we chuck AOL is a required chat? But we also lose a possible venue to attract a few new members
Juanita: Hmmmmm. You'd think our fantastic writings would spur more people to comment
Elizabeth: And Anneliese and I will have to change IDs yet again.
Juanita: Maybe that should read inspire
camidon: We can certainly spend some time on Juanita's story
Juanita: You won't know who you are
anneliese: lol
Juanita: always ready to talk about my favority subject
camidon:
camidon:
Elizabeth: that's already the case, Juanita.
Juanita: That being things I've written
davek: Actually the count is 13 and 13
camidon: We can wrap this up quickly (the AOL discussion) if we need to. Simply this: Who thinks AOL is worth keeping ties to, and who thinks there's no good reasons to keep those ties
Juanita: If we're not getting benefits, why keep it?
camidon: Are there enough benifits to outweigh the AOL headaches?
anneliese: I think there are reasons to find the proper avenues within AOL for gaining members.
davek: If the only cost is one chat a month and that can get us new members - why not?
anneliese: It is not costing us much to keep the association.
Juanita: Yes, new members are important
Elizabeth: True. We need to explore multiple avenues for attracting new members.
anneliese: But I am definately in favor of developing other associations, in addition.
anneliese: Has anyone checked into whether there is a SF writing group on Yahoo?
Juanita: No
davek: I'm sure there are.
Elizabeth: There are a few. I'm actually part of a local (Dallas/Fort Worth) SF writing group.
camidon: I think that's a good avenue, Anneliese. Keep AOL for now, and if in the future they begin to restrict our growth (or lack thereof), then we can reevaluate AOL at thta time.
Elizabeth: Do you want me to research that and send you a list?
Elizabeth: I mean, SF groups on Yahoo?
anneliese: If you can stand it...I only join Yahoo groups as I am invited (required).
camidon: Look for new/other associations (the avenue that I meant)
anneliese: I say yes to both CM and Elizabeth.
Juanita: me too
Elizabeth: I can at least browse them and separate the wheat from the Tribbles, as it were.
camidon: Thta sounds good, Elizabeth
Juanita: That was triticale
anneliese: I was going to look into the AOL groups...just so we could get referrals.
Elizabeth: you're right, Juanita. :::blushing:::
davek: Aren't we in the AOL groups?
Juanita: Now, why can't I remember important things????
anneliese: Not that I know of, Dave.
camidon: If we're not, we SHOULD be.
Elizabeth: brb
anneliese: I agree. I'm putting it on my todo list.
davek: What is our association with AOL?
camidon: As long as we stay "affiliated" with AOL, we should be able to utilize all of their resources. If we can't...
anneliese: It is less clear than it used to be. We used to be a special intrest group within the Writers' club.
anneliese: Since the demise of the Writers Club, we still have the chat, but the connection is more tenuous.
anneliese: In fact, with all the email restrictions, our supervisor recommended the group route.
anneliese: It is essentially a mailing list.
davek: Maybe if we PO AOL they will remove the old web site?
anneliese: Doubtful. It is technically a member site, and, as such, can stay forever.
camidon: What do you mean by group route?
anneliese: Or at least as long as the account is active.
Juanita: Can it be changed to send poeple to the new site?
anneliese: AOL has a thing called 'groups' that entails a message list, private message board and posting space.
anneliese: I don't know of any way to get the old site changed since I cannot contact its owner.
davek: Are groups tied to one account?
camidon: My vote is for this: As long as we can utilize AOL to its full potential, then let's stay with it. But if we keep getting hassled by the mega-montrosity... I say we forge a new path, searching for bold new worlds (websites), with bold new members...
anneliese: Yes, I think they are...at least they were the last time I set one up.
Juanita: Sounds good, CM
anneliese: Discussion closed? (for now)
davek: If groups are attached to one member then we run the risk of creating a new unable to change site.
anneliese: That is a risk, but I don't know how to avoid it.
davek: How is the contacting web sites with our old web address going?
anneliese: Except, that if we set it up under our HOST names, then it goes away if our HOST status goes away.
camidon: Very good point, Dave. In the future, if a member, who is in charge of the website leaves, or goes on hiatus, then we must immediately redo/move the website
davek: One way to avoid it is to create a group attached to a non-person ID.
camidon: So, Anneliese, if and when you ever move on from the group... Then we'll have to move the website
anneliese: In that vein, I was thinking of seeing what DSN we could get, and possibly register for SFWW.
anneliese: Then, the site could move, without changing its www address.
camidon: Ah, good idea, if we could do that , Anneliese
davek: What does a DSN cost these days?
anneliese: Domain names are cheap these days. I'd spring for it.
System: camidon leaves the channel. goes to channel: group-moderated
System: camidon joins the channel. "default"
anneliese: $8/year or less is what we are paying.
System: davek leaves the channel. goes to channel: group
System: davek joins the channel. "default"
anneliese: What did you just do?
camidon: whoops
anneliese: What was that?
camidon: That was strange, ah, well
anneliese: Anyway, Juanita, did you want to spend a few minutes talking about your sub
Elizabeth: bak
davek: That was a mistake.
System: davek leaves the channel. goes to channel: davek
System: davek joins the channel. "default"
Juanita: Sure
camidon: yes, Juanita, any questions?
anneliese: Anything you'd like to say or ask?
Elizabeth: Any comments/questions to the group, Juanita?
Juanita: don't think so. Just, if the story is working
anneliese: (looks like the pack is about to attack)
anneliese: Anyone else want to say something about the story? Jump in.
camidon: I think it is. Chapter two was much better than 1, in its flow and characterization
davek: I liked 2 better also.
camidon: Of course, future chapters might change whether the story is working...
Juanita: I'm going to have to come up with a good fix for chap 1
camidon: However, I really think Chapter 1 will be your hardest.
Juanita: Maybe I should start with 2
anneliese: How much of the rest of the story is written?
davek: You can always just drop it.
Juanita: I finished this story a few years ago
camidon: It may take a couple of tries, softening all those characters the first time, while also drawing in a hook
camidon: Well, you'd still have a few problems because even if you start at Chapter 2, now we've had no previous introduction
Juanita: True
Juanita: and some of what is in Chap 1 sets up things that happen much later
camidon: But that is a good thought. With some minor reworking, you might be able to make C2 into C1
Elizabeth: I liked Chapter Two. You did a good job of putting in some of David's backstory.
Elizabeth: I know that this is part of a series, but it's still good to remind us of where David's been. Plus it gives more insight into his character.
Elizabeth: Especially the hints that David has a lot of his past to hide.
Elizabeth: Sets up some good future tension.
camidon: You couldn't start C2 as C1 with the "Dream", Though I do think "Echoes from the past again haunted Davis' exhausted sleep.
davek: Unless the conflict with some of the characters from chapter 1 is used in the future.
camidon: is a great opening line
Juanita: Yeah, I don't like reading things that start with a dream
Elizabeth: The real conflict seems to start in Chapter 2. The combination of David trying (and not always successfully) to hide his past,
Juanita: or end with it
camidon: That line gives good potential for future internal character conflict. Gives something for the reader to look forward to.
Juanita: Maybe I need more of that in Chap 1
Elizabeth: plus the physical difficulties he's having, creates a lot of suspense.
camidon: I think that would help, Juanita
Elizabeth: Can David keep up? Or will he crack, mentally or physically?
Elizabeth: Plus the reader is, like I was, curious about just what is in David's past that he has to hide.
Juanita: I think I mention his illegal weapon in the first page or two. Maybe i have to put in there that he's killed someone in those dock fights
Elizabeth: Perhaps you need to start where Chapter 2 is now, and supply some of the other details (the conflict w/the other recruit, etc.) as backstory.
Elizabeth: Shouldn't be too hard to drop hints that David is keeping an eye out for the other guy.
Juanita: I have a terribly linear mind. My stories have very few flash backs or other timeline deviations
camidon: ====>Agrees with Elizabeth
camidon: ====>Agrees with Elizabeth
Elizabeth: I would keep the fact that David has killed somebody under wraps until a really critical part of the story.
Juanita: Actually, I don't think I mention it at all in this book
Elizabeth: Perhaps when David's reputation is really on the line, or when he's about to get the opportunity he's dreamed about.
Juanita: It does come up in the next one
Juanita: This whole book is about him NOT getting the opportunity he's dreamed about
Elizabeth: Though if it's not important to this story, you don't have to mention it. Just the idea that David has a slightly shady past is good.
Elizabeth: And his attempts to hide the less savory parts of that past from his superiors and buddies.
anneliese: But this is known from an earlier book, isn't it?
Juanita: Yes. the first book covers his two years between leaving home and joining the army
anneliese: In that case, guilt, or something, might color all of his actions in this story.
Juanita: ah, more motivation
anneliese: While no one might find out here, it might make for some of his growth in this book.
anneliese: So the reader might want to know more about it, even if none of the characters find out.
Elizabeth: His attempts to rise above, or deal with, past mistakes.
anneliese: Exactly
Juanita: good suggestions
camidon: Juanita, Send out more, when you get a chance. The critique queue is still woefully (or wonderfully) short
anneliese: It could explain some really bad judgement, or very good decisions, depending on how you use it.
anneliese: Yes Juanita, let's have some more.
Juanita: I'll do that. Apart from the first chap a few years ago, this story hasn't been critiqued
Elizabeth: It also rounds out David's character. Makes him much more intriguing to the reader.
Elizabeth: <=== agrees w/Anneliese
Juanita: Maybe he can do both
camidon: I think this book is good so far, but the first chapter stumbled, and you hit more or a stride with the 2nd
anneliese: Absolutely
Juanita: He does, bou obviously not soon enough
Elizabeth: The closer together your chapters come out, too, the easier it is for us to follow the story, and see how it progresses.
camidon: So, it's definately worth sending us more...
Elizabeth: Which is, IMO, one of the toughest things about a novel to critique.
camidon: ...and also spending your valuable time with it!
Juanita: I'd better enjoy spending my time on it because I'm certainly not making any money at it
anneliese: lol
Elizabeth: lol! Story of my life!
camidon: lol!
davek: That seems like a good point on which to exit.
Juanita: Well, I hope you all find the next chap entertaining.
Elizabeth:
anneliese: Oh, no! Not smiley battles again!
davek: See you guys next week.
Juanita: I think my biggest fix is required in chap 1
Elizabeth: Smiley WARS!
camidon:
Juanita: Thanks for all your input
anneliese: Nite Dave.
Elizabeth: And on that note, I'll exit...
camidon: Oh goodness, what did I start! Quick, everyone flee before it's too late
Juanita: Nite all
System: davek left us (snif).
camidon: Gnight everyone
anneliese: After killing us all, Nice, Elizabeth.
camidon: oh, let's just bump dave' other topic to next week
anneliese: Well, I do apologize, Juanita, for usurping much of your hour.
Elizabeth: Thanks for chatting, and good night!
anneliese: Nite, Elizabeth
Elizabeth: Oh, I'm firing blanks.
Juanita: That's all right. It's been intersesting
anneliese: Hope to see you next week then.
Elizabeth: good night everybody! Great chat! And, Juanita, thanks for being understanding.
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
camidon: later
anneliese: Your sub is still sitting (somewhere) on my desk. I'm planning to send you my comments.
anneliese: Nite CM
Juanita: Are you going to post a log
anneliese: If you don't see them in a few days, feel free to bug me.
Juanita: I can't seem to copy the comments
anneliese: Yep. I'll try to have the log posted in the next day or so.
Juanita: Thanks
Juanita: Thanks
Juanita: Thanksgood night
System: Juanita left us (snif).
anneliese: I found that I couldn't copy the comments into Word, but I can copy them into a text editor. Go figure.

System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Dave! Didn't see you sneak in!
camidon: hello, hello
davek: Just got here. History is working but not scrolling.
anneliese: No history here
davek: The history was from the last chat. Weird.
anneliese: Nope, that is what it is supposed to do. But there should be a way to empty the buffer at chat end.
anneliese: Hi CM?
anneliese: !
System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Fingers are off tonight.
camidon: let's try this again
anneliese: Looked like I was seeing double for a while there.
camidon: ah, I think that's better
camidon: yah, my internet browser crashed
davek: Hello???
camidon: and when I relogged on, i saw myself too
anneliese: Hello, Dave
System: davek left us (snif).
camidon: It was weird. I didn't get the history the first time I logged on, but the second time it gave a few lines of our last chat
anneliese: I feel so left out.
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Looks like Elizabeth will be joining us soon.
davek: I'm back.
camidon: Are we all in communication now? After a little strangeness?
anneliese: I sure hope so.
davek: That's why my stories all have manevolent computers in them.
camidon: funny, Dave
anneliese: lol
camidon: So what's the cause for this special session?
camidon: It seems the three faithful amigos, have arrived to chat again...
anneliese: Well, I wanted to work out with Elizabeth (and anyone else) our strategy for getting links to our site changed.
davek: I was looking at the web site and the critique schedule is the chat schedule.
anneliese: Any serious boo-boos?
camidon: boo-boos, as to the website alterations, or boo-boos to our strategy for getting links to our site changed
System: joeg joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Which ever, I guess
anneliese: Hi Joe!
joeg: hi
camidon: Hi, Joe
davek: I guess there are two things to do. Get the external links pointed to the new site, and somehow get the old site removed.
anneliese: I don't know how we can get the old site removed.
joeg: where are the new and old sites?
davek: Old is - http://hometown.aol.com/sfwwmoder/index.htm
camidon: Not until, we get back in contact with Mark (SFWWmoder)
camidon: with regards to trashing the old site that is
davek: CAn we contact AOL?
camidon: So: I think this is priority 1: Get the external links pointed to the new site.
anneliese: so far, our contacts at AOL have not been overly helpful.
davek: New site is - http://www.acmfox.com/sfww/index.php
davek: DOes Mark still have an active AOL account?
camidon: If the other site is still kicking around, it's kicking around. As long as most of the old links go to the NEW site, I can live with that
joeg: only the account owner can remove the content, unless it's offensive
anneliese: The account is 'active' but not accepting any email....the sfwwmoder one, that is.
davek: I'll agree with Camidon, get the new one on the external links and every AOL chat we announce the new site to prospective members.
anneliese: Well, as soon as we get the other links to change, I'll be happy.
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
joeg: what do you mean on the external links?
camidon: So, the question is: What is the process for changing the external links?
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth! You made it!
joeg: never mind
davek: I would start with an e-mail to the site owners.
Elizabeth: yes, finally
camidon: So, the question is: What is the process for changing the external links?
anneliese: The process will be that Elizabeth and I will send emails out to the site owners.
davek: Joe, there are a lot of external (not AOL) web pages with links to the AOL page.
anneliese: We will still be depending heavily on you guys to a) find the links and b) check back from time to time to see if they are updated.
camidon: And, Dave K compiled that list, correct?
davek: Yeap.
camidon: or rather, a beginning list?
anneliese: Within AOL, I think we need to form a 'group' that can point folks in the right direction.
camidon: fantastic
anneliese: A pretty comprehensive list, I thought...kudos to Dave.
Elizabeth: I need to get onto the message boards on AOL and drop our new address.
camidon: Let's make sure SOMEone keeps track of all the links, in some form of a database
davek: I found about 18 sites.
anneliese: Yep. Elizabeth, will you be able to do that?
Elizabeth: Use that as my signature and post to the AOL boards.
Elizabeth: Yes, I should be able to get onto the boards.
anneliese: Great.
anneliese: Great idea about the db, also, CM
anneliese: I think we have a pretty good start.
davek: Let me know when you send out the emails and I'll monitor the sites.
anneliese: Will do.
camidon: So, how long do we think it will take to update the sites? Have you two (A & E) created a form letter or something to contact those websites?
anneliese: That is our next job. I had hoped to do that this afternoon, but snoozed instead.
davek: I just bookmarked the sites in an "old sfww" folder. As they update I'll just remove them.
Elizabeth: not yet.
anneliese: I'd also like some more of your opinions on how we should re-organize the site.
anneliese: Also, to Elizabeth, I'd like your thoughts on some of the emails we've received wrt bulk emailing.
camidon: Once we update the old external links, should we let you know about sites where we can post an SFWW link? IE, places like Ralans?
anneliese: Certainly, CM, if we can get more links to our site, that's great.
anneliese: We could probably be doing both simultaneously (updating old links, asking for new ones)
camidon: "received wrt bulk emailing" is this something the rest of us need to know about?
davek: There are various "rings" we may be able to join.
anneliese: Well, AOL is telling chat hosts that they can no longer send out chat reminders.
Elizabeth: I need to talk to the AOL gurus and see if our critique/chat reminders/subs fall under "bulk e-mail" or not.
joeg: what's wrt?
anneliese: Reminders have to come from other sources.
Elizabeth: w/regards to
camidon: with regards to
anneliese: wrt=with respect to
Elizabeth: We may have to find another means of sending chat reminders. I have a non-AOL ID I could use for those.
anneliese: I would think that we don't fit the guidelines...all of our members specifically request....
Elizabeth: If I'm sending it outside of AOL, I don't think that would be a problem...
joeg: why won't AOL allow chat hosts to send out bulk emails?
anneliese: AOL is getting very restrictive wrt 'spamming'
joeg: how many emails do you send at once?
Elizabeth: New policy, I think...trying to cut down on spam. Or avoid having chat hosts accused of spamming.
anneliese: about 40 emails.
Elizabeth: Anneliese, I'll e-mail Mike D. and ask about our situation...explain that our members have to ask
joeg: I forget what the threshold is, but 40 s/b under it
davek: Hardly seems enough to worry about.
Elizabeth: to be added to our mailing list...see if AOL will make an exception.
Elizabeth: If not, I can always send stuff from a Yahoo! ID.
anneliese: or from my acmfox.com id.
joeg: who's Mike D?
Elizabeth: That would have an ID closer to the SFWW site URL...might work out better.
davek: What kind of system is that? Could you automate the emails?
anneliese: Yes, it would seem that if AOL wants to become very strict with this, that we either have to go off AOL or change the way we distribute stories and critiques.
anneliese: I can set up an email address for SFWW@acmfox.com
Elizabeth: Chat host leader/mentor for Work & Careers (where AOL shoehorned us after Writers Club was axed)
anneliese: Or whatever.
Elizabeth: Nice guy, very reasonable, but I don't know how much wiggle room AOL allows him.
anneliese: Actually, I already have list manager software running on the acmfox site.
Elizabeth: hi CM!
camidon: my computer is having a fits of the "crashes", did I miss anything interesting int he last five minutes?
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
anneliese: And you knocked out elizabeth, I guess.
anneliese: This is too wierd.
camidon: phooey, I scared away Elizabeth
davek: We're talking about how to get around AOL's email restrictions.
anneliese: Yep, don't know if you missed anything or not...if history worked.
joeg: average members are really wierd about spam...
anneliese: Anyway, I'll post the logs.
camidon: Ahh, as I was going to say, that fits right in with MIke and I's discussion: The purpose of AOL... coming soon to a chat room near you
davek: BUt a few aliases at acmfox.com would be good - SFWW-members , SFWW-hosts ...
anneliese: Exactly, CM.
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Since I have unlimited aliases/emails, we can certainly do something.
Elizabeth: My turn to get booted off. :-P
anneliese: WB, Elizabeth.
joeg: I can find ouit what the spam thresholds are tomorrow...when you send from outside, just send in batches...
anneliese: We were talking about taking the boot and sfww email accounts.
anneliese: Or make sure that AOL members list us in their 'white lists'
davek: It started to rain here so my wireless link my go.
anneliese: I was reading the AOL spam guidelines...not for the faint of heart, but manageable, I think.
joeg: AOL based members should already have you in their address books
Elizabeth: I'm waiting for the English translation, Anneliese. You're braver than I am.
anneliese: I'd agree with that, Joe, but I gave up on the AOL address book myself long ago.
anneliese: Too buggy.
joeg: I know the director of mail ops, I can get some answers tomorrow
Elizabeth: I'd agree. It burps every so often and I have to re-enter my addresses.
davek: For critiques, I do a reply all. I figure anyone who got the story gets my critique.
anneliese: I keep important lists, like the SFWw list in a Word doc.
joeg: that's what I do. Reply all works
camidon: Me too
Elizabeth: I save the member lists in Notepad, in case I need them later.
anneliese: It sounds like we've made some assignments for ourselves.
anneliese: Elizabeth will email Mike D
Elizabeth: Yep. I'll ask about the mail reminders tomorrow.
davek: I think we have a plan for the links. Any ideas for the SFWW site itself?
anneliese: Joe will check on bulk mail limits
joeg: Elizabeth, send me your questions too. I'll work it from my end
anneliese: I will write a letter to use to contact webmasters
davek: I'll monitor the sites and look for more.
Elizabeth: Will do, Joe. Thanks!
anneliese: Yep, Dave
anneliese: CM, you will look for other sites to post links
joeg: what's Mike D's Screenname?
camidon: As to the website: the new format (experiment, whatever), I'm liking the new colors for fonts and backgrounds.
anneliese: Losing the clouds of stars for a plain background OK with you all?
camidon: I also like the streamlined left-side menu-bar
Elizabeth: Joe, I'll handle Mike D. He had his ID hijacked a week or so ago,
Elizabeth: and he may be a bit touchy about me giving his screenname out.
joeg: nice
Elizabeth: Yeah, if somebody was spamming under my ID, I'd be ticked too.
davek: I think the chat schedule page should have a link to the critique schedule for the details of each week.
anneliese: I think it does. Perhaps it could be worded better, though.
camidon: when you reach what you think you want, Anneliese, should we vote or something? Agree we like it? Majority has to like it to keep it? Just brainstorming?
davek: Duh, you're right Annelise.
anneliese: Don't know. Since I am kind of unilaterally making changes,
camidon: when you reach what you think you want, Anneliese, should we vote or something? Agree we like it? Majority has to like it to keep it? Just brainstorming?
anneliese: and it is on my site, where it sort of appears as a portfolio item for me,
anneliese: I think I want to have the last word. However, I am very open to suggestions.
davek: Only thing missing is a cover letters page.
davek: Oh, and a Your Hosts.
anneliese: Cover letters, hosts, which I couldn't find, so has to be redone,
anneliese: and I'd like to improve the resources information.
anneliese: We could expand the hosts section to member profiles, if you all wanted something like that instead.
camidon: I do think we should rework the "links" page so that we break it into sections: Writing craft, publishing links, conventions, etc, and then in each subsection, have a little blurb about what the use of the link is for
anneliese: And I thought the 'wall of fame' suggestion was a good one too.
davek: All I need is the fame.
anneliese: I agree, CM, and incorporate some of the info that has been posted to the message board.
Elizabeth: lol Dave! Me too!
camidon: lol
anneliese: However, links pages are ones that are notoriously out of date, so, again, I'll need some helpers to keep it current.
davek: OK
camidon: certainly, can help there. Don't my checking the links every so often
anneliese: Good, because you've all noticed that I abhore checking links.
anneliese:
camidon: That's also why I think we should scrap the publishers's page if favor of links to those who already keep track of publishers (ralans, spicy green, etc) Then we just have to keep the one link updated
anneliese: Absolutely!
Elizabeth: Thanks for setting this up, Anneliese, and thanks to all of you for your suggestions.
davek: OK by me.
anneliese: Consider the publisher page scrapped.
joeg: I like that...you also won't have to worry about adding new links
anneliese: I also scrapped the FAQ & Cons page. I think some of the material was good, but made better message board material.
camidon: But, that's also why a brief description of the link itself is useful: So we know what to expect. IE, what ralans offers, what spicy green offers, etc, on down the list of links
davek: Good, because it has a mailto to SFWWmoder.
camidon: That's good too. FAQ seems perfect for the message board
anneliese: Yep, CM, I definately prefer links that include some description.
camidon: we might be able to help you with that too.
davek: A few pages still have "How it works" instead of "How SFWW works".
anneliese: Really, all the true FAQ material is incorporated in other pages: SFWW description, how to Critique, etc.
camidon: IT doesn't take much to write up a two sentence blurb about a link. However, that's in the future: Updating the external links is the most important thing
anneliese: Yep, Dave, I am still working on dropping the new TOC links in all the pages.
anneliese: <==agrees with CM
Elizabeth: Well, I need to sign off...thanks to all of you.
davek: BYe.
anneliese: Glad you could make it.
Elizabeth: I will work on AOL messages, bulk mailings, etc.
camidon: bye, Elizabeth, have a good night
Elizabeth: good night everybody!
anneliese: Niters
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
anneliese: Any other thoughts about website changes before we close?
camidon: I like the format direction you're taking, colors, etc
anneliese: That's good to hear.
davek: The goal of the web site should be to get members to join. We should review it in thet perspective.
camidon: WHen I compare it to the old black, starry and green format, it's better already
camidon: I agree, 100% Dave
camidon: Well, maybe 99%, the website should be a resource for ourselves too
anneliese: I agree, Dave. But it also serves as a place to keep relatively static reference information for our members.
anneliese: on the same wavelength, CM, again.
camidon: But we desperatley need some new blood.
anneliese: Yes. I feel like I should be wearing a sandwich board out somewhere.
davek: What do you think would be on the web site that you wouldn't maintain on your own?
camidon: We had some communication via email, Anneliese, those thoughts still stand too
anneliese: yep
davek: I still like my promotional - Do only 2 critiques and get your story critiqued.
anneliese: I don't understand your question, Dave.
anneliese: I don't have a problem with the promotional, per se, only where to advertise it.
davek: It was to Camidion. What resourses on the SFWW site that you would not keep yourself.
camidon: I say, put the idea to the group, Dave, and let's have a vote (once the external links are updated). This might show just how many people are still active, a vote that is
davek: The forum has a voting system.
camidon: Ah, Dave, there could be dozens of links on the SFWW page, instead of in my favorites section
camidon: Then they are also there for new members too
davek: That is a good way to share links.
camidon: Links that I might use once a year instead of common enough to bookmark
camidon: But you do have a point, about it is pretty easy to click and bookmark pages
camidon: Also, sfww, as a group would be responsible for keeping the links active, instead of just myself. <a few thoughts about your question>\
camidon: Also, sfww, as a group would be responsible for keeping the links active, instead of just myself. <a few thoughts about your question>
davek: It is good for new members.
camidon: But, not everyone uses the forum, <sadly> so a vote should got through email, at least at this stage.
camidon: I envision, in a few years, if I'm still active with SFWW, that the SFWW links page could be a major resource for writers, and it would be in our own "backyard".
camidon: Okay, halting my yammering...
davek: That would be nice. Especially if it is kept current.
anneliese: lol, but Iike yammering
davek: Maybe we need a chat on how to get new members.
camidon: lol
davek: Spam ;-) the group and we can hunt for ideas.
camidon: That's a good topic for a topicless chat night, Dave
anneliese: I think we need to think about how we each found SFWW and use that as a basis for gaining members.
davek: And we should promote it to the group. Not just one emailing but two or three.
davek: May 31 is open. Should we grab it?
anneliese: Fine by me.
joeg: we need to get a little higher in the google rankings
camidon: Yes, let's reiterate the chats to the group. If we can even pull one sleeping member into a chat, it would be worth it.
anneliese: Unless, it gets filled with a story....but will the holiday interfere?
camidon: And if we don't, we've only wasted virtual space.
anneliese: good point
camidon: ah, good point, let's not do that on Memorial day
camidon: less chance to get folks.
davek: May 24 is "Our ties with AOL" Can we hitch on that?
anneliese: If Monday nights are take, how do you feel about alternate days/times?
anneliese: I know that Juanita wanted to come tonight, but she's working.
davek: Fine by me. It depends on the particular day.
anneliese: I'm sure that we can hitch on that nite.
camidon: same thought as Dave
davek: We should notify Bruce that we're stealing his day.
anneliese: So expand the topic to include: Our ties with AOL, and ...
anneliese: Bruce is OK with it, he is unable to make the chat.
camidon: sounds fine with me.
camidon: If we wind up talking for an hour on one subject or the other, we can always bump the other topic if necessary.
anneliese: True.
davek: Maybe we need a regular, bimonthly (?) SFWW organization chat.
anneliese: Well, I think this has been a very productive meeting.
anneliese: That might be a good idea, Dave, at least in the short term.
camidon: Good thought, Dave,
camidon: maybe not too often, but it would be useful.
davek: Quarter;y?
anneliese: After we get more of our immediate plans in place, a once monthly meeting, or less would work.
camidon: I'd say let's not add anymore chats than the weekly ones, Monday.
camidon: Most likely one Monday a month would be free for that type of chat
anneliese: Yes, we need time to write, after all.
camidon: and if not, we can rethink it when it comes up.
davek: Until we get so many members we need story chats every week.
camidon: good point, Anneliese!
camidon: everyone's full of good points
davek: Everyone always says that I'm full of it.
anneliese: Another alternative might be to meet half an hour early, once in a while, as necessary.
anneliese: lol Dave
camidon: I say lets leave some of these thoughts to the next chat (looking at time, have to rung)
camidon: rung? run...
anneliese: Same here, way past my bed time.
camidon: though I like that idea Anneliese.
anneliese: Again, a good chat.
camidon: I do need to go, tonight, but as always, this has been productive.
davek: See you all next week.
anneliese: Niters, all.
camidon: Once crits pick up... things will be down right rosy in SFWWland again...
camidon: gnight all

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