Chat log for June 07, 2004

davek: HI guys.
anneliese: Hi Dave!
anneliese: Hi CM!
anneliese: Thanks for all the stuff you guys have been sending.
davek: No problem.
anneliese: Sorry that I haven't gotten to do much with it, though, it's been a crazy week.
anneliese: I'm behind on everything.
davek: Did i kick CM off again?
camidon: Nope, I'm here, I finally downloaded a new web browser---I just got back from work, some I'm making dinner
camidon: Now I don't crash anymore! Yay!
davek: We had buffalo burgers.
anneliese: Yay! CM....Pizza here. Too tired for anything requiring more work.
camidon: I was going to email you, Anneliese, about tonight's chat, and how Dave and I were going to waylay my chat, for another topic--SFWW world building.
anneliese: Cool. Whatever you guys want is good with me.
camidon: but I got busy. I'm being lazy tonight too. Just a frozen pizza with some extra mushrooms.
anneliese: Extra mushrooms...too much work. Straight out of the box and into the oven for me!
camidon: I don't think my story will draw too many tonight. However, Mike Marsh said he would be here to talk about the world building. Hopefully he'll show if he can.
anneliese: We can give folks a few more minutes...or start right away, if you want.
camidon: Lol, Anneliese.
anneliese: Do I take your smiley to indicate that you aren't too satisfied with your sub?
camidon: The mushrooms sure add a lot of heavy lifing to the job of constructing dinner!
anneliese: lol
Elizabeth: Hi everybody!
camidon: It's not that, Anneliese, but I figured 1) It's fairly long, and 2) rather dark and depressing, and 3) The main character is none to likable. THe group tends to shy away from these and find them rather tasteless.
davek: OK scrolling is working for me now. Don't know why I had to logoff and back in.
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth! Topic is going to be worldbuilding tonight.
camidon: Hi Elizabeth
anneliese: I'm jealous, Dave. Scrolling and history worked for me last week, but no one was here.
davek: About CM's e ship universe in particular.
davek: The long weekend made me forget what day it was.
emptykube: hello everyone
Elizabeth: hi Mike!
anneliese: No problem. I was too braindead to do any meaningful chatting.
davek: We have had some discussion in the forum about it. It seems to be moving along.
camidon: Yah (and if anyone does want to toss in a comment about my story too, then that's fine too :hehe:)
anneliese: Hi Mike!
camidon: Hi, Mike
anneliese: I'm going to have to check out the forum...haven't looked at the posts for at least a week.
emptykube: hello annelies, hello elizabeth, hello dame, hello cm
Elizabeth: Same here. This week's been nutso. Kiddo has pinkeye.
anneliese: Bummer. Pinkeye is such a pain.
camidon: ugh, Pink Eye. Yikes. no fun
Elizabeth: He wasn't supposed to go out this weekend, since he was still contagious, but he was soooo bored and restless...little gas molecule.
Elizabeth: Ionized gas molecule at that.
emptykube: kids and pink eye are like opposie magnetic poles we went through a couple of months last year of rotating pink eye around the family.
Elizabeth: ouch! My condolences, Mike.
anneliese: Well, Does anyone want to start the worldbuilding conversation?
camidon: But yes, the discussion about the E ship universe have been progressing. We're up to a 2nd page on the bboard! (Yay, me, Mike, and Dave)
davek: Is Eddy going to join us?
camidon: Don't know.
Elizabeth: Don't know for sure, Dave. I haven't heard anything from him.
camidon: I'll say a few things, Anneliese , bring you and E up to date
anneliese: Thanks. GA, CM
emptykube: hmmm..."start the worldbuilding conversation"??? "And then there was light....and this was good.."
camidon: Dave and I chatted a little bit last night, as well as with MIke on the bboard...
emptykube: missed last nights caught up in playing daddy and forgot about it
camidon: We want to start a communal SFWW world-building project, based on my E-ship idea, which was briefly stated in my story "Time Enough, Never Enough TIme"
davek: I'm always looking for ways to intice new mwmbers. I'm hoping we can promote this worldbuilding as a lure for new members.
Elizabeth: A shared universe, something like Thieves World or Star Wars?
camidon: Anyone in the group who is interested, can contribute to the project. The project will be a collection of short stories...
anneliese: This sounds like fun!
Elizabeth: <=== agrees w/Anneliese
davek: I'm thinking of a sort of "open source" universe.
Elizabeth: Something more original, in other words.
camidon: Focusing around a colonization theme: Evolving to fit the specifics of a planet, with a ship taking millions of years to cross the cosmos. That's the nugget of the idea, and Dave, Mike, and my bantering has started spiraling in many directions.
emptykube: cm's idea is using a generation ship to promte evolution of the "crew" to meet the conditions of the planet destination instead of terraforming the planet. Ship would travel for exceptionally long time spans.
Elizabeth: Where you have some basic parameters, but each writer contributes something to the overall universe.
camidon: We would get together for chats (hopeful) and outline the specifics of the world, then go off and write short stories.
davek: I'm thinking that with genitic engineering the times can be shortened by a lot.
camidon: So: 2 things...
camidon: 1) Dave would like to talk about WIKI, (right Dave?), software that will aide in the outline and creation of this communal world, and 2) I'd like to send out an email to the group later this week about this, see if we can't get one or two more people interested, and as Dave mentioned, put it on our website as a possible means to interest new memebers.
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
davek: If we build this future history thenthere can be any number of ships and even stories of those left behind.
camidon: <catching breath> I think that's the basics
emptykube: dave: genetic engineering might be a better tool, or at least "guided" development because relying on evolution to randomoly select for certain traits might not go exactly as hoped.
anneliese: It sounds great to me.
camidon: Ahh, I think that's right, "guided" development is really more what I'm think of than true "evolution"
anneliese: Sign me up, and publish your ideas to the group...mention the forum.
camidon: Their is an end point of the evolution we want.
davek: Of course there might be members of some religion who want to do it naturally.
anneliese: But 'natural' is selective breeding anyway?
davek: That would be another shi.
camidon: But there are a hundred (if not more) possible stories about the "evolution" and the everchanging generations onboard the ship (or multiple ships)
anneliese: We could use this chat to begin with, but another slot would be better in the long run, I think.
emptykube: cm...I'd like to get the whole group involved if possible, including our hosts. This is the kind of project that could be a real fun learning experience. We can even circulate the individual stories, critique them, but instead of offering random thoughts, we'd be working toward getting them right for the "anthology".
anneliese: Sounds like a great plan, Mike.
anneliese: Dave, what is the purpose of this software?
camidon: I agree, Mike... and before we get too much further into this, Dave, would you like to discuss what this "WIKI" is and how it would aid this project?
anneliese: <==hands mike over to Dave
camidon: <gosh, thinking way too much alike, Anneliese, (pizza, the timing of our comments.) Strange
anneliese: Scary, CM
davek: Wiki is a web technology that lets anyone edit a page on the web. The idea is that instead of chats or forums where the content is not kept the page is edited and is always around.
anneliese: Must be because we both live in states beginning with the letter ';C'
davek: I posted some links on the forum. In particular the wikiopedia (sp?) is done this way.
anneliese: I installed a piece of software like that recently. I could put it up on my server, if you want to check it out also.
davek: check out -
camidon: lol. Anneliese
davek: There are a lot of versions. Wiki refers to the idea not a particular package. Some are based on perl and others php.
anneliese: I think the one we were playing with was PHP...gotta look up the name of it!
camidon: In this way, we can all, always see the current story idea outline, and also, perhaps, then post written stories there too, for critique and comments
anneliese: Wikipedia is currently offline as a result of some database troubles.
Elizabeth: That would be helpful.
anneliese: If we want to take things totally private, I also have a file server running in my office.
emptykube: we could also keep "bible" up as well.
camidon: We can also, always edit the pages as needed. And if I recall, it will always note changes and keep prior page versions
anneliese: And post comments to pages, I suspect.
anneliese: As well as keeping dictionaries, etc.
emptykube: try this site
davek: I'm not sure how much protection you can give to pages or parts of pages.
camidon: "'d like to get the whole group involved if possible" This would be the ultimate goal, however I think most of the members on the email list have crumbled into dust. I hold out hope though.
emptykube: wiki seems to center around the concept of free exchange of ideas...may not respond well to "privatization"
anneliese: Some of the collaboration software that I have been exploring has that feature.
emptykube: boy my spelling sucks tonight
camidon: Also, the way I see it, is that Mike, Dave, and I can spear head the project, so you 2 don't take on any added responsibilities, save for maybe participating in the idea itself.
emptykube: yes...project requires anneliese and elizabeth to be participants at producing fiction!
camidon: We can be the contacts (or 1 or 2 of us can) and kind of "lead" the idea in a way
Elizabeth: I would like to least on the writing end.
anneliese: lol
anneliese: Yes, I prefer to participate as a writer. However, I will see to getting the software installed, if we choose to go that way.
camidon: Then, looking into the future as all scifi authors do, this world-building come become a staple of SFWW. WHo knows, eventually the group could be creating multiple worlds.
anneliese: This could be a really interesting long-term occupation.
davek: Let's take it one universe at a time.
emptykube: some of waht we have so far is 1) CM's idea, and 2) Dave has brought up the idea of a miniblackhole power source. 3) I suggested instead of building ships hollowing out asteriods and using them as ships.
anneliese: Or pre-occupation.
camidon: I don't mind kind of "leading the way"/being the contact, though Dave and MIke, you 2 certainly can "be in charge" too.
davek: Maybe there are two factions, one using asteroids and the other all hand built.
emptykube: we aslo were debating the merits of including AI's
anneliese: Likely, this is going to be something that requires at least 2 of you to honcho...depending on how you divvy responsibilities.
camidon: With a couple of us "leading the way" I think things would flow smoother. My original idea has blossomed so much with the two of you giving so many ideas to it.
emptykube: I will try to handle some responsibilities as work and family life allow
camidon: So, now to some of the details, I take it?
emptykube: I think once the writing starts to come through the group, others will become interested.
anneliese: Go for it!
camidon: I wish I had sat down and outlined the most crucial points about this e-ship idea. Darn work.
davek: I think we build a universe that has as few restraints as possible. Like asteroid ships or not.
camidon: Me and my outlining...
davek: But some things have to be constrained so the universe is consistant, like AI's.
anneliese: Start with the most basic principles from which no one is allowed to stray.
emptykube: yes...dave. we all have very different writing ways, so as few restrictions as possible would be great.
camidon: Yes, and timeframe hundreds of years vs thousands, vs millions.
davek: And aliens. Do they exist or not?
anneliese: I.e., generational ships, modifying colonists to fit new worlds.
camidon: So restraints needed are 1) Do AI's exist, 2) Timeframe. 3) Aliens. what else.
emptykube: Aliens and AI's should exist, to offer balance otherwise the story becomes to human centric.
anneliese: From there, each writer is going to answer the questions he/she discovers.
emptykube: agrees with anneliese
davek: The big question is: Why do they change themselves? Humans have changed the environment to suit us. Why change now?
davek: The big question is: Why do they change themselves? Humans have changed the environment to suit us. Why change now?
camidon: ah yes the ultimate basic idea: that should guide all of our decisions, so first we need to agree on the basic idea.
anneliese: For me, AI's probably don't exist, although computers do.
emptykube: if not AI's how about virtual personalities?
anneliese: Good question, Dave, also good germ for a story.
emptykube: Yes dave...that's a good question to takle as part of a story.
davek: Another big question is why go at all? Why go to the star? Either some physical property, such as the star shows evidance of being a wormhole to another star or "dimension" or there is evidence of life, either intelligent or not. Or is the population or political pressure in the Sol system too great? Is pure exploration good enough? If so why not send probes?
camidon: Well, here, let me give you the basis for my original idea.
anneliese: GA, CM
camidon: For millions of years, humans have evolved, and they have expanded across the the world. From the first people in Africa, humans spread into the mid-East, from there into Europe, China, Australia, and eventually from the Americas, all the while evolving, and all the while taking vast amounts of time to move and evolove...
camidon: So, now that we've colonized all the continents (land) as the human population continues to expand, it will look to the skies. Space is just the next extension of our evolution...
camidon: For so long, the distances of space have probited serious discussion of colonization, however, when we look at our past, it has taken us millions of years to evolve to where we are today. Therefore the time it would take to cross the cosmos, is know different than the time it took for Humans to evolve into its present form.
Elizabeth: After a few thousand years on colony ships, you could have an interesting argument about whether the colonists, or their descendants, are still human.
camidon: In our modern world, we've begun hyper sensitive to time, and we count every second. Perhaps this is our mistake, and therefore, in order to cross the cosmos, we have to think in vast amounts of time. Therefore, a we cross the voids, year after year, generation after generation, we need to continue to evolve, otherwise we have stopped growing as a species.
emptykube: exactly Elizabeth...the idea leaves room for some amazing topics and stories
camidon: Whew <out of breath again> I think that's it. How badly have I confused everyone?
anneliese: Great observation, CM. So all that is stopping this migration now, is adequate technology, which, as in the Polynesian migrations, can be relatively primitive.
davek: BUt they had a very benign environment.
anneliese: All clear to me (or I'm too dense to know otherwise)
camidon: Exactly! There canoes are our current spaceships.
emptykube: yes anneleise, which is why I thought of using an asteriod. With a ship you have too many parts you have to have technology to make last a long time. But on the inside of an asteriod you can build cities, parks, have a whole confined ecosystem using technology not very much more sophisticated then today's.
anneliese: Dave, it doesn't matter whether you think of the environment as benign or hostile. Colonization is still bound to take place.
Elizabeth: People have colonized some pretty hostile environments on Earth.
camidon: Not totally, Dave. Look at where people have settled: The Arctic eskimos. The Desert Aztecs. The Mountainous INcas. We've settled almost every environment on the planet (the notable exception being underwater)
emptykube: set the thing spinning, give it a nudge in the right direction, let it slow cruise into interstellar space.
anneliese: Exactly, Elizabeth.
camidon: Who knows what we are capable of adapting to next?
anneliese: On the other hand, just building ships to get to the asteroids, and developing from there works too.
camidon: We are constrained only by the limits of our imagination (and sadly money and political agendas)
anneliese: The more private use of space, the cheaper and less political it becomes.
emptykube: I also like the idea of asteriods because it invokes the whole image of humanity living inside caves.
anneliese: Who's to say that the Catholic Church doesn't need to go off world?
camidon: I've been daunted by this idea for a few years now, but this forum, this SFWW collection of writers may be just what this e-gen idea needs to floursih in the million directions it can potential go
Elizabeth: Back to our beginnings, as it were.
emptykube: well...with the child abuse scandal maybe they need to go on the lamb:)
Elizabeth: There are any number of directions it could go.
Elizabeth: lol Mike and Anneliese!
camidon: lol
Elizabeth: Not what Heinlein had in mind when he created the Church of All Worlds, but...Eye-wink
anneliese: maybe not...
emptykube: udes??used
anneliese: So, guys, what would you like to take away from tonight's chat?
davek: It's getting late. What are our next steps? I'm got a few pages of notes to put on the forum.
camidon: Tomorrow (writing a note) I'll email the group about this idea. Dave/Anneliese can you 2 figure out the WIki/software angle?
anneliese: (I should be able to post this log tomorrow.)
camidon: What will work best online, for this communal idea?
emptykube: another thing to consider is that not all humans will participate. some will stay home and follow a differnt path. Do they debvelop FTL and meet the colony ships?
emptykube: develop.sheesh..
anneliese: I'm looking at the WIKI site. Also, I'll see if I can restart that other collaboration software for you all to take a look at.
davek: That will have to be one of the constrints of the universe - no FTL>
camidon: Before we scatter tonight, we should also discuss the possibilites of more chats... The next one will REALLY focus on ironing out the basics of the idea, and what every story needs to have in common.
emptykube: FTL
anneliese: I think the 6/28 time is an open chat...unless you want to schedule something sooner.
davek: I think we need to step back and decide the mechanics of of the owrldbuilding.
Elizabeth: No ansible, either.
camidon: I agree with Dave. That's pure science fiction (as of now), and I think this universe could be thoroughly based in science of today
emptykube: can we communicate back and forth by email for a bit also? I might not get to too many chats. Of course the forum is good too. Retail makes chatting difficult sometimes.
anneliese: Unfortunately, I am going to be in Chicago from 6/21-6/29.
Elizabeth: Having people on opposite ends of the galaxy communicate instantaneously (and without seriously warping spacetime) is an SF device that annoys the **** out of me.
camidon: Yes, Dave, this is what I mean by setting up another chat, so we can "ecide the mechanics of of the world buildign"
emptykube: Based on today, but science will continue to "evolve" also. We need to be mindful of possibilities or risk appearing niave.
camidon: True, True, Mike
davek: Nano is a big question too.
davek: Nano is a big question too.
camidon: Anneliese, let's grab that 6/28 slot at the very least.
Elizabeth: One thing I've thought about previously, but never been able to put into a story, is a quantum communication device.
anneliese: I'll pencil that in.
emptykube: nano is a yes...its already being devloped in real do you pretend it doesn't grow up?
camidon: I'll inquire about extra (potential) chats in the email tomorrow.
anneliese: Quantum communication devices are probably close to reality.
Elizabeth: It can communicate certain portions of a message at FTL, but only certain parts. And you can't predict next parts.
camidon: I think once we establish the basics of the world, the unbreakable rules (as few as possilbe) then we would need to have chats hardly at all.
anneliese: Then, chats would be basic story critique based.
emptykube: like the idea of using quantum entanglement
davek: Elizabeth, invent it, describe it and put it in the timeline somewhere.
Elizabeth: I even have a title..."The Quantum Oracle"...just no plot.
camidon: However, chats are the best way to iron out the laws of the world, initially.
camidon: Lol, Elizabeth. love that smilet
emptykube: Elizabeth..sometimes a good title inspires a good story
davek: OR maybe the wiki.
Elizabeth: <=== agrees w/CM, just wondering what evenings will be free.
Elizabeth: Thanks, CM, it seemed appropriate.
davek: Talking about humans spreading all over the world gave me the title - Weed Species.
camidon: Dave and I are relatively free, so we can be the mainstays.
camidon: Perhaps we can have a few random chats between now and the 28th to start ironing out details...
davek: OK by me.
anneliese: I don't have too many standing evening commitments (other than SFWW) at this time.
camidon: with Dave and I as the base, we'll set up times, then email you Anneliese, and also the group. Does that work?
camidon: about random chats I mean
Elizabeth: Sounds good to me, CM & Dave.
anneliese: Works for me.
camidon: whoever shows, shows. If some people can make it, great. We'll use their input as much as possible.
anneliese: I'm excited about this.
emptykube: those that can't make it can follow logs?
camidon: I'll try to save chats, Mike, and send them to you, as your one of the "instigators" in this little "plot"
emptykube: ahhh coconspiritors of the world unite!
Elizabeth: bwahahahah!
camidon: Perhaps we'll make a new topic on the bboard, a special place to put the chats about this worlding building "Event"
Elizabeth: good idea, CM.
anneliese: Between logs and the forum, many folks should be able to participate.
emptykube: what do we call the work in progress?
Elizabeth: That way people who follow the boards might get interested.
anneliese: Life Cycles?
emptykube: ohhh Life Cycles is niice
Elizabeth: Life/Cycles.
anneliese: I liked "weed species" a lot
Elizabeth: Just so I don't have the image of those nasty exercise bikes in my head.
camidon: My working title was: "Generation E" (evolution)
Elizabeth: Any of those titles works for me.
emptykube: how about sfww WIP until we can fine tune one?
anneliese: That works also, CM. Why not continue using it?
davek: World In Process?
camidon: well fiddle sticks, I crashed. So much for saving this chat for myself. <Anneliese, please post this!> I thought my new browzer would fix that. Oh well.
emptykube: world, work..either way
Elizabeth: World in Progress. Wet Paint.
anneliese: So many great titles!
emptykube: LOL
camidon: (must have been the borg smiley)
anneliese: SFWW Wet Paint
emptykube: yes CM...don't you know borg don't smile? of course it crashed!
camidon: How about this: GenE WIP.
emptykube: ooohhh sounds kinky
camidon: That way we know what the WIP is in brief (thinking ahead to future WIPs after this one... Gosh I'm optimistic)
anneliese: Anything you choose to call it, should be fine for now.
davek: That can't hurt attendence.
camidon: lol, mike
Elizabeth: BTW, CM, I love the Borg smiley.
Elizabeth: brb
anneliese: I think this has been a great chat.
davek: CM, are you going to mail the group?
emptykube: hey! I gotta hit the apologies...early day in the am
davek: Bye Mike.
anneliese: Glad you could make it, Mike.
camidon: yep, I'll do it tomorrow (really writing myself the note this time)
camidon: Bye, Mike, thanks for coming and sharing your idea
anneliese: And I have the log captured.
emptykube: me too. I'm excited about this also. could be a fun.
davek: I have a lot of ideas/questions to post to the forum.
emptykube: anneliese you should see a doctor about that and on that note...bye!
anneliese: I hope I have enough time to catch up on the posts already there!
anneliese: Niters, Mike
camidon: I'll try to organize main world issues, so that we can proceed through a next chat with some organization, and make some specific decisions about world issues.
davek: Anneliese, how is updating th elinks going?
anneliese: Slowly. I have notified about half on the list, but received little now I will have to revisit those links and see which are changed.
anneliese: I hope to finish off my list of notifications this week, then go on to the other changes/enhancements you and CM have suggested.
davek: Any contacts from youe AOL journal?
anneliese: None yet, but I have created an aol home page that sorts adjacent to the old one on AOL searches.
Elizabeth: Haven't updated it lately. I'll take a look tonight.
anneliese: I made the AOL home page under my acmfox account. I'm going to duplicate it under the HOST account.
camidon: I think we've made good progress. The group is still quiet, but the renewed energy from the core goup (those of us here tonight plus a few others) bold well for the future (and after all this group IS concerned about the future)
Elizabeth: I need to turn in or I'll be a crispy critter tomorrow. Got an 8:30 a.m. appointment at kiddo's school.
anneliese: Also, we get a few email forwarding accounts with the new domain name. Should I set some up?
Elizabeth: Have to convince the school that he's ready for first grade.
davek: Bye, Elizabeth.
camidon: Gnight, Elizabeth,
Elizabeth: Sounds like a good idea, Anneliese.
Elizabeth: Good night, everyone!
anneliese: We can chat/ email later about it.
anneliese: Niters, then, Elizabeth.
anneliese: Glad you could make it.
davek: CM, I'm going to post a bunch of ideas tonight.
camidon: Dave, do you want to try and set-up a near-future chat time? One I could put in the email tomrrow?
anneliese: You guys on MTN time...I'm jealous!
davek: Sure, not Friday but otehrwise OK.
camidon: Ah, yes, if ever I move back east, I will miss the early time zone
camidon: I can do Wed or Sat (booked up a lot this week in the evening--teaching people the "wild cave tour" route through wind cave.
camidon: Either of those work for you?
davek: Wed should be OK. I would think Saturday could be busy. But is Wed too soon?
davek: Let's go for Wed.
anneliese: Either is good. I'll have an easier time remembering Wed, though, since I rarely check email over the weekend.
camidon: Probably, but if you and I can meet, and I get the email out tomorrow, why not?
camidon: Wednesday, then. Same time?
davek: OK.
anneliese: Sounds good.
camidon: If you can show up, Anneliese, that would be great!
anneliese: Boy are we spoiled having our own chat room!
camidon: Boy do I love it though!
anneliese: I'll try...someone's gotta log afterall
davek: That and a wiki should be a good selling point for new members.
camidon: Sounds good.
davek: See you Wed.
anneliese: And now, I really gotta crash. See you all Wednesday!
camidon: I'll take my leave <furiosuly scribbling post-it-notes so I remember all this stuff
camidon: Gnight, you two.
davek: Bye.