Chat log for June 14, 2004, WIP special chat

System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi CM!
camidon: Howdy!
anneliese: I guess at least one person got my reminder?
System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Or, is it because you knew already?
anneliese: Hi Mike!
emptykube: hi all
camidon: Both, I think. Wrote numerous post-it notes!
camidon: Hi Mike
emptykube: how is everyone?
anneliese: Tired today...can't get out of my own way with this TWiki stuff.
camidon: Just banged my knee on the table. <ouch> Other than that. Good
anneliese:
emptykube:
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
camidon: Tomorrow is my weekend, and boy do I need it.
anneliese: Hi Dave!
camidon: Hi dave
davek: HI
emptykube: hi dave
anneliese: One more week till we leave for the conference, so we're nuts.
davek: Scrolling is not working. I'll log off and back in.
System: davek left us (snif).
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
System: davek left us (snif).
camidon: Probably won't get anymore folks, but heck, ya never know
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
emptykube: i've spent the better part of two months researching Heresies and just finished another book on the topic so my head is swimming
anneliese: I say: let's get started.
anneliese: Heresies...way too many of those!
camidon: THough, Bruce did send out a message regrading this project today
anneliese: Is he able to make Mon. nite chats?
camidon: Where do we start tonight?
camidon: no, Bruce can't make Monday chats.
anneliese: One point of business...do you want me to be customizing the Twiki, or do you want to do it?
camidon: I still haven't had the time to thoroughly read all of your responses to the Tech questions, mike.
emptykube: that's okay nietther have I
camidon: I assume that's directed to Dave, as he's the more computer literate.
camidon: Dave? do you want to customize, Twiki, or let Anneliese do it?
anneliese: Just a division of labor, really. I don't mind doing it, but you guys are the editors, so your wish is my command.
davek: I started dumping stuff into the wiki already. Just cut and pasted from the forum and looking for a way to structure it.
anneliese: I'm thinking of setting up a special 'site' just for this project.
camidon: Or you both can tweak it. (I've yet to look at Twiki, also).
davek: All I can work on is the content. Annaliese has to do the hard work of login's and setting up the whole thing.
anneliese: Then, in the future, we can have multiple projects, but easy separation.
anneliese: Yep, I'm gonna get a login working...eventually!
davek: All it is is that one undocumented setting in that unreferenced config file.
anneliese: Nope, I think I understand what the issue is...I just don't like their solution. Looking at the FAQs, neither do others.
davek: Can it be put inside the forum, so that we only need one login?
anneliese: Hmmm....never thought about that. I kind of doubt it, but I'll have to look at the Forum software. However, the reverse might work.
emptykube: sorry... i keep getting pulled away by my rugrats
emptykube: i'm back now, though
davek: OK, pop a new browser window and go to - http://www.acmfox.com/cgi-bin/sfww/twiki/view.cgi/Main/WebHome I did add some content
anneliese: The forum and chat board use real security setups. TWiki uses security that is part of the Apache server (which might not be enabled on my site).
camidon: I was spacing to, MIke
System: emptykube left us (snif).
davek: I looked at some of the login stuff, but since I don't have an installation to refer to it was academic at best.
camidon: I was spacing to, MIke
anneliese: The instructions call for edit to a *supplied* .htaccess file, which I have tried to reconstruct, since none came with the download.
anneliese: I think I can get around the problem by writing a login page...just haven't had time to do that yet.
anneliese: I was impressed that you got your topics in, though. Good job!
davek: It is pretty easy, although formatting is new and different.
anneliese: Well, I'm impressed.
System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Mike...there are two of you!
emptykube: did I loose you guys?
camidon: I lost you for a while, Mike
emptykube: two of me?
anneliese: No longer. Just one now.
davek: I thought that I could contribute some example formatting.
emptykube: be very afraid for the world at large if that's true
anneliese:
camidon: Shall we move on to some "world" discussion?
anneliese: GA
emptykube: sure
davek: CM, have you looked at the Wiki site?
camidon: Not, yet, Dave.
davek: BTW, according to the TV schedule there is a SF movie on now that uses a black hole power source.
camidon: On my list of things to do
emptykube: don't have television, dave...broadcast and cable free household
camidon: In the little I skimmed of MIke's responses to our Tech questions, Mike, you seem big on the "asteroid" idea. Why don't we disucss the "raw materials" needed for the trip, where we get them, (which will relate, potentially, to the asteroid idea).
davek: I'll summarize in the forum and Wiki.
anneliese: I have to admit, the asteroid idea is very attractive to me as well.
davek: It is the obvious source for materials. Well, construction at least. DO we refine the asteroid and weld plates or dig tunnels?
emptykube: I'm not stuck on the asteriod idea, its just that one of the requirements you mentioned early on was current technology and I believe using current drilling/excavation technology modified somewhat an asteriod would be possible as oppossed to building a materila able to last centuries
camidon: Personally, I'm warming up to the idea too, though at first I didn't like it. Now I see it's potential, and its rationale.
emptykube: material
davek: And where does the oxygen come from? Transmutation, comet ice?
camidon: I agree, MIke. Tech wise, it works wonders, and solves all sort of material problems.
anneliese: I think tunneling makes a lot of sense in the beginning, but over the millenia, the original asteroid is likely just a core of a much greater structure.
camidon: And we wouldn't necessarilt HAVE to have a power source, if we just sling it around a few planets.
emptykube: oxygen comes from plants and anerobic bacteria
emptykube: exactly, CM...give it a good nudge and send aim it as close as possible.
anneliese: Can we park in an orbit for a bunch of years to store energy?
emptykube: draw back is how to slow it down at destination?
davek: It originally came from fused hydrogen in stars.
camidon: I agree with the tunneling. They have an initial space-worthy structure, they would just have to tunnel out, and then make sure those tunnels were then space worthy.
emptykube: annelies do you mean build it and place it around a planet to collect solar radiation?
davek: To design the ship we need to know the goals of the mission, resources available, and commitment of the builders.
camidon: I'm not set totally for the idea, yet, either, but I'm seeing less reasons why this option isn't a very, very good one.
anneliese: Yes, I think...Basically, for a project like this to work, it has to be very simple, and, in the long run, very low tech.
anneliese: Rather like a biological system.
emptykube: I agree
emptykube: building near Jupiter might also have obvious advantages as well
camidon: I agree, Dave. But if we know where some of the raw materials for the mission are coming from, i.e., asterouds that may infulence the ship's goals, mission, etc
anneliese: I keep trying to think about how species spread and evolve naturally. I think our ships have to follow a similar patter.
anneliese: pattern.
davek: It is a give and take, but there are some mission goals that must be met or the project is not feasable.
emptykube: I think Dave is right that we need to figure out motivation of the builders. How desperate are they? How rich? Et.
anneliese: Alternatively, there could be different groups, all looking at the same kind of project, but with vastly differing missions.
camidon: At this point I would ask, why shouldn't we use Mike's idea of an asteroid as basis for resources and ship design? What are the negatives?
emptykube: 1st negative...how to stop at destination?
camidon: BTW: I read an article on the NY Times online about private space travel and a challenge to build a private space faring vessel.
camidon: I've since posted the article on the bboard.
anneliese: Thanks for posting that one.
davek: We are talking about 150 years or more in the future. Things change.
anneliese: The asteroid has to be small enough to function as a moon, smaller than earth's moon, though, so it isn't too disruptive to the planet it orbits.
emptykube: dave I think CM's idea calls for 1000's of years. If we were talking a 150 or 200 I'd say build a traditional ship and see how she fares. 1000's of years calls for a kind of durability our current tech can't achieve.
camidon: Would there be a way to navigate the asteroid? Maneverability would probably be impotant. Collision courses with other objects would be bad.
anneliese: If we can get an asteroid to move at all, I'd presume that we can steer it.
davek: I ment the trip starts in 150 years or more, not the duration.
camidon: Rather, Dave, did you mean. the "mission" should start a 150 years in the future?
camidon: ah hah.
camidon: I suppose the ship
emptykube: CM...as I was typing I was thinking that you could use gravity to slow it down, ssort of reverse sling shot. Just slap retro's on the outside of the asteriod .
davek: The ship is started to be built in say - 2150
anneliese: Alternatively, in the lost boat theory...what if a mining operation sets itself adrift?
camidon: oops... I suppose a ship's engineers could rig up some kind of system, air jets or somthing? <space engineering is not my forte> Maybe this could help slow it down to? Given enough time?
camidon: Dave, do you prefer, a more conventional spacecraft?
emptykube: if we postulate the ship building as being 150 to 200 years in the future we then have to extrapolate all sorts of new tech, or explain why the universe we build is so much like the one we live in.
davek: No, whatever we decide to build.
davek: We can't build it now. It has to be built in the future.
davek: Or it is an alien artifaact.
emptykube: example...in 150 years will we find exotic matter? Will a theory of everything be developed? will quantum computers be in existance? et..
camidon: I'd say, we could construct a craft and have it on it's way in 50 years.
davek: When this story takes place is the first question in the Wiki.
camidon: So many facets of this idea. It's startling really.
anneliese: If we knew that earth was facing a catastrophic event in 50 years...could we have colony ships ready?
emptykube: agree with CM...with enough motivation, using current technology slighty modified a slow boat could be built in 50 years. What is the motivation? Religion? Politics? Stupidity?
emptykube: catastrphy is a good motivator.
anneliese: A slower migration would be simply a function of running out of room. A sudden migration needs something more.
davek: I agree with Annaliese, but I can't think of a reason to do this in fifty years.
emptykube: I was envisioning a single initial mission which inspires others at a much later date...sort of like hay...let's do what they did.
camidon: That's probably true, perhaps we should figure out a reason for this trip?
anneliese: Short of environmental or political catastrophe, there aren't too many reasons other than simple curiosity.
emptykube: the reason has to also jive with the cost
camidon: I can envision a new space race, between the EU, and perhaps an eventual AU (Asian Union) with China and Japan leading the way. Then perhaps, 150 years is a good timeframe.
anneliese: In a slower story line, I think folks do this because: they can, they want to see what is 'out there'.
camidon: I also like the idea, of a rich religious sect, teaming up with a wealthy small country or something like that
anneliese: How many people do you envision a ship holding?
emptykube: In an early version of my Personality Conflict story I postulated a religous group dedicated to spreading humanity's seed to the stars. Religion or politics are the only reasons I can see for doing this so soon.
camidon: The search for a truly "religiously free environment" has always been great motivation for tremedous journey. (Puritans, Mormons, just to name a few)
emptykube: In a slower time frame, again, we will need to allow for technologies developed.
emptykube: which is fine with me.
anneliese: How long is it going to take to colonize the moon and the asteroids? I think that has to come first.
camidon: MY feeling was we WERE going for a slower timeframe, having put forth the Tech questions.
camidon: Though I didn't really think about that until now.
davek: Slower timeframe means - slow journey or a few hundred years before departure?
anneliese: Years before departure, I think.
emptykube: if we wait till the Moon and asteriods are colonized FTL might well be developed. The Albiguere drive I posted about only requires the discovery of exotic matter to work.
emptykube: yes...slower time frame to me means hundreds years before departure.
emptykube: brb
anneliese: We might still need a long journey, even if FTL is in place to allow for an evolutionary phase.
camidon: Since, we're working with SCADS of time here, I guess I see no reason the "mission" has to really leave any time soon, anyway
davek: Check the wiki guys, a lot of this is discussed in there.
camidon: No FTL. We did decide that!
camidon: So, we'll use a slower timeframe, but not too slow, so we can readily extrapolate most tech?
davek: As good as any SF writer can do it.
anneliese: I'm looking at your TWiki post. I think we should all consider reviewing it and working from that as our starting point.
camidon: So let's attempt to nail down a "departure date" and a potential reason for the first ship to leave (even if there are more ship9;s to eventually follow)
anneliese: I'm going to sound a little radical here, but I think we need to nail down the scope of the project and some of the working rules.
davek: I would say write your ideas in the Wiki and we'll discuss them there, or the forum, or a chat.
anneliese: I suspect that some of these story issues will be answered by how certain writers want to create stories.
camidon: This is very interesting discussion. The more we discuss, the more we realize we need to know somethins else to make a decision!
davek: It is all inter-related. We discuss one thing and realize that it affects many other parts.
davek: Is it time to go to the AOL chat room?
anneliese: I'm moving over, but you all can continue here if you like.
davek: We should move. If we want to attract new members we should look like an active group.
davek: See you there.
davek: Bye
camidon: Let's let the idea sit for a few weeks. We can do more discussion on the bboard and wiki site once it's all up and running
System: davek left us (snif).
camidon: There goes Dave, doh.
anneliese: That makes sense. If we want another chat date, there should be plenty available.
camidon: Anyway, I'd suggest, chatting in two weeks during the open Monday chat session.
emptykube: back...sorry had to help wife
anneliese: I think that makes sense. I probably won't be able to make it though
camidon: Dave jumped to AOL, Mike, and Anneliese's straddling both, so I think we're wrapping things up.
camidon: No problem, Anneliese.
emptykube: I'll head over to the aol chat, tehn...;et me just scroll back to see what I missed
camidon: As long as you can still get out a chat reminder, though!
anneliese: So far, it's just Dave and me in AOL, so I'm hanging her for a bit longer.
camidon: Can't make the AOL chat, so I'll say gnight to you all then.
camidon: Keep discussing this if you like, and just email me the chat transcript, from the AOL session
camidon: I'm flexible in my opinions, if we actually can reach an opinon.consesun about something!
anneliese: If I neglect to email it, look for it on the forum. I've been pretty good about posting the chat logs of late.
emptykube: I think maybe its time to try to get a story and then see where we go from there.
anneliese: I think so also.
camidon: BTW, Anneliese, the SFWW page, with the crit schedule is kind of weird now, with the dates.
camidon: Maybe we should all try to write a brief, beginning scene, and see what comes out.
anneliese: Probably because I was trying to clean it up, got distracted, and never finished the job. Just keep reminding me.
camidon: We could then see what we have in common. Just another idea.
camidon: I'll post these thought on the bboard, and try to look into WIKI.
camidon: As Dave departed, I think you two should move over permanently to AOL.
anneliese: Have patience with the wiki...I have a bit to clean up withit.
emptykube: cm...I'm gping to sign off, then back in in another browser. Will you be here for a while lioonger?
camidon: Gnight, you two.
anneliese: Yep. I'll be here.
anneliese: Niters, CM. Thanks for everything.
camidon: I think, I'll sign of MIke.
camidon: so no.
camidon: gnight
System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: WB, Mike
emptykube: hi...changed my browser. AOl just doesn't like MSN
anneliese: MSN is a browser? I thought it was a service only.
emptykube: MSN has its own browser as oppossed to regular IE
emptykube: You have to sign in to use it
anneliese: That's just plain silly!
emptykube: well...yes...but the service is free with my dsl and its really pretty on the eyes and I can check my MSN mail and real email at the same time and, well...did I mention its really pretty on the eyes?
anneliese: Well, I like using AOL Communicator for checking email...I can do AOL mail as well as all other email accounts in one fell swoop.
emptykube: see I also have an aversion to AOL, but my wife likes it and we got roots in AOL that go back like 8 years. hard to give that up
anneliese: AOL has its advantages, although they are diminishing. Still it is hard to give up.
emptykube: cm are you still here?
emptykube: if cm is awol teh I might just abandon this for the AOl chat exclusively.
anneliese: I think CM is gone.
emptykube: okay...see you on AOL
anneliese: So, let's cut out of here, I'll capture the log and close it.