SFWW Chats

BogWitch64:hi elizabeth

EHardage:hello there Terri!

long time no chat!

how's your son doing?

BogWitch64:Indeed

BogWitch64:He's doing ok, still recovering, believe it or not

BogWitch64:He's in a brace now, the leg is still partially paralyzed but it'll get better, if not completely better.

acmfox:As long as he keeps making progress.

BogWitch64:Yup

BogWitch64:He's a lot better off than this time last year!!! That's for dang sure

EHardage:Wow. I'm glad he's still improving. Long process, though.

DaveK:Anneliese, any way of getting at the joined and left the chat message not to print

BogWitch64:And, while I would NEVER wish his accident on him but I am nonetheless glad I wasn't able to attend Viable Paradise until this year.

acmfox:Dave, I'll have to work on that some other time. ... but definately, it should be eliminated.

acmfox:Because...

EHardage:Terri, do you feel that you weren't ready until this year?

BogWitch64:Definitely

EHardage:Because it does sound like a pretty intense week, and intense competition just to get in.

BogWitch64:And this year, there were two additional instructors

There was a long wait list this year

I saw someone has a Jim Kelly critique??

DaveK:Good palce to start - How does one get in?

EHardage:The more critiquers the merrier, IMHO. As long as they all know what they're doing. :)   :-)   :smile:

BogWitch64:I clicked on the link while browsing last week

EHardage:And in a workshop like that I suspect they all know what they're doing.

BogWitch64:Dave, you have to apply after January first

There is a website. Google Viable Paradise, it'll come up

EHardage:One of our very short-term members posted something about a Jim Kelly crit, but I don't think his post linked to it.

EHardage:I think he was working on a Trek story or something like that.

acmfox:http://www.sff.net/paradise/

BogWitch64:Elizabeth, if a writer gets in, he/she is assured of peers at the same writing level and the instructors are amazing

DaveK:How do they qualify the entrants?

BogWitch64:Ah, I see

BogWitch64:Jim's awesome. He won't be there next year. I am very happy and lucky that he was there this year. He was most helpful

EHardage:what Dave asked...what are they looking for?

BogWitch64:Dave, you send a submission of about 10K words

BogWitch64:Like any submission, you'll get a yes or a no

BogWitch64:But you won't find out until June!!!!

That's the killer

BogWitch64:They looking for talent

They're looking for writers who are serious about writing

That doesn't mean you have to be putting out publishable stuff

BogWitch64:But if they see the potential for it, they'll take you

BogWitch64:One guy, I honestly couldn't tell you how he got in with what he wrote. But the story itself was brilliant

BogWitch64:But the feedback you get...from peers and instructors, is invaluable

EHardage:and they workshop your submission, right?

BogWitch64:You'll have a 'breakout' session with your peers and two instructors wherein your manuscript will be critiqued by all

BogWitch64:Yes, they workshop the submission unless yousend them something different by August 15th

EHardage:sounds interesting. Did most people send novel excerpts? Novellas?

BogWitch64:You also have two scheduled one-on-one sessions with two of the instructors. You can ask for more. I did!! I had four.

Most were novel exerpts, yes

There were a few short stories

BogWitch64:It's a LOT of work during that week--but fun work. And we had a kickass party on Friday night

BogWitch64:It is a great place to make contacts, both personal and professional

EHardage:wow. The contacts would be especially useful.

acmfox:Were most attendees from the area, or from long distances?

BogWitch64:I now know four sci-fi-fantasy authors on a first name basis, two of the editors (pres and vice pres) at Tor publishing and made lots of friends who show lots of promise to also be published.

Looooooong distances

BogWitch64:We had two from London, one from Vancouver, tons fromt he west coast

Actually, there were not all that many east coasters there this time around but we did represent

acmfox:Those do sound like great contacts.

BogWitch64:Teresa Neilsen Hayden (Tor) was actually one of my one-on-one instructors

EHardage:I am chartreuse with envy.

Seriously.

BogWitch64::D   :-D

She asked me if I was finished with my book

When I said no she said, "This is the kind of thing we like to see come across our desks."

acmfox:Have you sent it to her yet?

BogWitch64:Can I tell you how my heart flitter-fluttered???

I will when I'm finished!!!

acmfox:(I'd probably just melt into a pool of mud.)

DaveK:Nice!!! Was it something we've seen in SFWW?

BogWitch64:Hmmm...I think so

BogWitch64:I think I submitted the first chapter waaaay back---though it has changed some since then

EHardage:that's fantastic! Was that the "game" novel you sent us the first chapter of?

BogWitch64:Annelise--they're all so amazingly nice

Yes!!

You remembered

EHardage:good on you!

acmfox:... and we're still waiting to read more!

BogWitch64:It was a thoroughly validating week for me

EHardage:that's terrific.

BogWitch64::D   :-D Annelise

EHardage:Any advice on trying to get in?

EHardage:The length sounds about right. My vacation time's still pretty limited. :)   :-)   :smile:

BogWitch64:I learned so much. There was not one writer there, no matter what the skill level, who did not come away having learned a great deal

It's a nice week, up there in Martha's Vineyard in October

Jim MacDonald will take you out to see the glowing jellyfish one night

And we play games--Mafia and Thing

BogWitch64:We had dinner together nightly and read shakespeare (Hamlet) with beer and pizza one night

Have you ever been on the Absolute Write site?

acmfox:http://www.absolutewrite.com/

Just looked it up.

BogWitch64:yes

Check out the Uncle Jim page

EHardage:haven't been there in a while. I'll have to check it out.

BogWitch64:That's Jim MacDonald. He and his wife, Debra Doyle, have been writing together since 1988

He's a pip. Love him!

EHardage:that sounds like soooo much fun.

BogWitch64:He's a master plotter. He does the first draft, Debra does the second. He's not a polish man and she' definitely IS a polish woman!!!

Elizabeth--it is incredibly fun

I didn't want to come home!!!!

BogWitch64:and I miss everyone terribly--but we have our own room in Absolute Write. MacAlister Stone, the new grande dame of the site, was an attendee of VP this year.

BogWitch64:It's a pretty cool forum. You should check it out

EHardage:excellent! I've always wondered about collaboration. I'm probably way too anti-social, and stubborn, to do it myself. :)   :-)   :smile:

'twill have to peruse it later.

BogWitch64:Tag the VP page and watch for the call for submissions

BogWitch64:Submitting early doesn't guarentee you'll get in but it does help a bit

DaveK:What's Absolute write?

BogWitch64:if it comes down to you and someone else that submitted in April, you'll be the one they pick.

It's a writer's message board kind of thing, Dave

BogWitch64:Jim MacDonald has his own thread.

EHardage:I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for that, then, procrastinator that I am.

BogWitch64:Is anyone familiar with Steven Gould?

EHardage:Need to rewrite the first 10K words of my novel.

BogWitch64:Definitely, Elizabeth!!! You should go!!

EHardage:I've heard the name. Not terribly familiar.

BogWitch64:He wrote Jumper, Wildside, Reflex

He's sci-fi

BogWitch64:Jumper is being made into a movie for release Christmas of next year

EHardage:okay...that sounds more familiar.

BogWitch64:it was very cool to hear him talk about that

BogWitch64:It was just a really cool experience. 1.5 hours of Critique sessions daily followed by a 1.5 hour lecture and every day we got together for a 'collegium' that lasted anywhere from an hour to three hours

DaveK:Hello, am I still online?

acmfox:Yes, Dave, you are.

BogWitch64:The BEST part about being at VP was a whole week of talking writing with other writers within OUR GENRE

As you know from being in this room together, that's a huge plus

DaveK:We're getting a wind storm here. Smetimes that screws up my link

EHardage:Absolutely.

BogWitch64:I can't believe I haven't gotten tossed out of here yet

acmfox:Definately sounds like a valuable experience.

BogWitch64:It was, Annelise. I strongly encourage all of you to apply

acmfox:(We can switch back to the old chatbox... it'll toss you for blinking. :)   :-)   :smile: )

BogWitch64:The cost isn't bad considering it's a whole week

No thanks Annelise!!!

acmfox:... and the fact that it's Martha's Vinyard in October.

BogWitch64:It's definitely an investment

BogWitch64:Many attendees shared a room making it much more affordable

EHardage:MA in October. I can handle that. :)   :-)   :smile:

acmfox:How did the costs work out?

BogWitch64:The whole week, if you share a room, ends up costing about $1500 wen all was said and done

Though I can't say what the travel costs are

acmfox:Did you drive?

BogWitch64:I drove, yes

BogWitch64:The rooms are something like 125 a night--if you share that with two other people, it's substantially less

acmfox:MV can be a bit complicated to get to, but very do-able.

BogWitch64:$825 for the week of instruction, though this year was a 'big' year.

It was less last year. I'm not sure how much it will be next year.

acmfox:"big" due to extra teachers?

BogWitch64:It wasn't bad, Annelise.

Well, it was the tenth anniversary year. There was an extra day involved and yes, two extra teachers

acmfox:Nope, driving isn't bad. Flying from outside of New England adds a lot of extra travel arrangements.

BogWitch64:Cory Docktrow and James Patrick Kelly were added on. Cory says he's coming back next year

Where would you be coming from, Annelise?

acmfox:Hartford.

BogWitch64:oh, wow!!! I forgot we're neighbors!

EHardage:Still, $825 is a bargain, considering the caliber of people they seem to invite (as both moderators and students)

BogWitch64:You're even closer than I am

It really is, Elizabeth

acmfox:Yup. We really ought to meet for coffee sometime.

BogWitch64:We should!!!

BogWitch64:oh, what I must tell you!

Patrick and Teresa Neilsen Hayden are the editors from Tor

They told us a secret

They do read absolutely EVERYTHING that comes to Tor

But 90 percent of what they get is complete crap

EHardage:Sturgeon's Law strikes again!

BogWitch64:By being at VP, we've already made it to that ten percent that gets through to them

EHardage:which gives you an "in" when you decide to submit to Tor, doesn't it?

BogWitch64:The vast majority of the people who submit manuscripts can barely compose a sentence

Elizabeth, definitely

If you can write well enough to get into VP, you can write well enough to get a look at Tor

DaveK:Did they have examples of that crap?

BogWitch64:And Tor happily reads work from unagented writers

Dave, yes they did!!

Hilarious ones, mostly

acmfox:That's good to know about Tor.

EHardage:I'm sure it was pretty painful.

BogWitch64:Teresa told us that she once rejected 26 manuscripts in 25 minutes

EHardage:lol!

BogWitch64:That's how awful some are

DaveK:I never sent them that many

BogWitch64:Hahahahhaaa

They really do know, within the first paragraph, if you're worth reading

DaveK:Did they mention how inportant formatting is?

BogWitch64:well, if your BOOK is worth reading

acmfox:That's almost scarey.

BogWitch64:Very important

EHardage:I'm sure they've read some stinkers. Perhaps even "Eye of Argon" stinkers.

BogWitch64:Especially electronic submissions

ALWAYS send in RTF file

Hard tabs, no italice

italics

DaveK:They'll take e-mail submissions?

BogWitch64:The hard copy just needs to be neat, one inch margins

No italics

EHardage:brb

BogWitch64:Dave, they take email submissions if they request seeing more of the novel.

BogWitch64:Hard copy MUST have a full heading on the first page, shorter heading (name, book title) on all subsequent pages

BogWitch64:Teresa told us about one book that she LOVED but could not get in touch with the author because the contact info was on the cover letter only and that cover letter, of course, got misplaced

DaveK:Hello again, got kicked out

BogWitch64:hello again

EHardage:oh, no!

BogWitch64:She did find him, many years later and Tor did buy the book

And cover letters--short

EHardage:that makes sense.

BogWitch64:Dear so and so, Enclosed find the first three chapters of my manuscript, as stipulated in your guidelines. Thank you for your time and consideration. End of story

DaveK:Everything I read about getting a book published is that it takes years.

BogWitch64:it does, Dave

The submitting and hearing back process can take a year

Then that year's list is already made so you'll be on the following year's list

BogWitch64:the good thing about Tor is they publish 12 science fiction, 12 fantasy and 12 in their new paranormal line yearly

However, do not submit the first book in a series

If it can stand alone, fine--but don't mention there are others

No publisher will comit to more than one book for a first time author

If the first two books do well, then you can try a series. That was pounded into our heads

DaveK:I would hope that they would read it enough to figure out if it can stand alone.

BogWitch64:Dave, if you tell them it's the first in a series, you'll probably get set aside right off the bat

DaveK:In other words, if you have a series and send them the first book they should figure it out.

BogWitch64:They want 80-120K word books

EHardage:Hmmm. I'll have to find a way to make the first book stand alone. Or not wobble too badly. :)   :-)   :smile:

DaveK:What did they say about length?

BogWitch64:The book has to have a firm resolution in the end. There can be a possiblity for more and you can even have the second written (Better still if they liked the first!!) but if the story doesn't end with the first book, send them something else

BogWitch64:80-120K words, Dave

BogWitch64:Elizabeth--I'll tell you, I thought my book was a two to three booker but after workshopping it at VP, I know it can definitely stand alone AND bebetter for it

DaveK:You cut it that much?

Or you had three 50k books?

BogWitch64:That's the hard part about world building--we build these worlds that take up SO much space but in the end result is way more info than the reader needs.

Dave, yup

EHardage:That's an interesting idea, because I've known for a while now that I needed to make sure that the first and second books ended on a more definitive note.

BogWitch64:Very important, E

acmfox:I know that you can do that, Elizabeth

DaveK:Elizabeth, have you ever sent your book out?

BogWitch64:Having a second is a definitely plus--but having that first DEPEND upon that second is bad, bad, bad

BogWitch64:Even the likes of JK Rowling couldn't have sold Harry Potter as a series

EHardage:Realizing that. The tough part is figuring out how to make the first book stand on its own.

BogWitch64:If you read them, you can see that the first couple of books really can stand along. It's not until you get to the fourth that you really HAVE to read on

BogWitch64:It is hard, E. I know

EHardage:True.

BogWitch64:The way I figured it out was by way of Jim Kelly and Jim MacDonald

Before I went to VP, I knew there was something off about the book. I got down to the last few chapters and it just wasn't coming together

I'm telling you, the timing for me to head up there was PERFECT!!!

acmfox:(Another case of the universe working in mysterious ways)

EHardage:serendipitous, you could say.

BogWitch64:Jim Kelly asked me to tell me how I was going to pull off my book. He listened and asked the right questions and by the time we were done talking, I knew exactly what I needed to do

BogWitch64:And then Jim McDonald, who read only fifty pages of my four hundred fifty page manuscript, had the whole thing plotted out right down to the detail

EHardage:Man, that's impressive.

BogWitch64:Just by reading those pages!!! But having him cut through all the bogging down stuff trimmed it up significantly

And now, instead of two books, I will have one and it will be awesome!!

EHardage:That's the other thing, isn't it? Knowing what to cut.

BogWitch64::D   :-D

BogWitch64:Have you a finished draft E?

BogWitch64:Oh, and one more thing--said bookisms...do we know these??

DaveK:Said bookinsm ???

BogWitch64:he said, she said

EHardage:I finished the first draft. Have some ideas about how to rewrite and polish, but I haven't done much of anything on the novel lately.

DaveK:What did they say?

BogWitch64:when you use anything but said or asked, it's a 'bookism

EHardage:When I do write it's mostly short stories.

BogWitch64:That's good too, E! Submit them!

EHardage:Which is weird, because when I started, I couldn't keep a story under 6000 words to save my life.

DaveK:What did bookism say?

BogWitch64:Dave, NEVER use them

never say, he shouted, he laughed, he hissed

Said disappears

BogWitch64:go though a page of dialogue in any book you have and count how many times said is used

you don't even notice it

and NEVER attach an action to a bit of dialogue

"Go west, young man," the old man pointed. Noooo!

DaveK:I usually don't even write said. Just quote the dialog

BogWitch64:"Go west, young man." The old man pointed.

Dave, good

DaveK:Write tight, he said tersely.

EHardage:as in tags? I use a LOT of those.

BogWitch64:The 'said bookism' thing was something just about every one of us at VP had a problem with. We all got our hands smacked!

E, yes, tags

DaveK:But I do think some are needed, such as wispered.

BogWitch64:stick to said, asked, an occasionally cried. The dialogue should be doing the work, not the tags.

BogWitch64:Their biggest pet peeve was using 'hissed or laughed.'

DaveK:How do they want thoughts formatted? Italics or plain text?

BogWitch64:Ugh...those are stock favorites of mine!!!

EHardage:I can understand that. Some insanely popular fantasy novel (which I tried to read and couldn't get through) was peppered with phrases like "Sorry," he apologized.

Ack!

BogWitch64:Ok, I've kept you all on long enough. Unless anyone has anything they want to ask, I'm going to shut up now.

Hahahahaa! E!!!

DaveK:How do they want thoughts formatted? Italics or plain text?

BogWitch64:According to my little box over there, I'm the only one in the room anyway!

DaveK:Ignore the little box

acmfox:(We're each in our own little room...alone!)

BogWitch64::D   :-D

DaveK:Like in - I wonder if I can make it, he thought.

EHardage:thanks for coming, Terri! Lots of good information, and I'm glad we got a chance to catch up!

BogWitch64:I hope that you all apply. You're welcome, E.

EHardage:best of luck w/your book! Sounds like you've made great progress with it.

BogWitch64:Thanks! Same to you, to all of you! Go, go, go to VP!!!

DaveK:Do let us know if it gets bought

EHardage:I plan to!

BogWitch64:Let me know when you get in. XX

EHardage:good night everybody!

acmfox:Yes, thanks so much for being here tonight. It's been wonderful.

DaveK:Bye

acmfox:Nighters, everyone.

BogWitch64:Not a problem, Annelise. You too, go, go, go!!!

Night all.

[14/08 20:59] *** DaveK has joined the chatbox
[14/08 21:00] Hello
[14/08 21:00] *** camidon has joined the chatbox
[14/08 21:01] hello
[14/08 21:01] HI Chris
[14/08 21:02] Thanks for that market reference
[14/08 21:03] np, spent a little time on the web today
[14/08 21:03] So, when I send the story back do I mention that I had sent it in once before?
[14/08 21:04] probably a wise idea, but mention the nice fit this time around?
[14/08 21:05] I will certainly do that.
[14/08 21:05] Have you ever read one of their issues?
[14/08 21:06] no
[14/08 21:06] Neither have I.
[14/08 21:07] I'm working on that GenE stroy but despite starting it twice I don't know where it's going to go.
[14/08 21:07] What's the plot thus far?
[14/08 21:08] Maybe I'll put it aside and polish up Contact one more time
[14/08 21:08] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[14/08 21:08] hello there! Sorry I'm late.
[14/08 21:08] The GE story is far down the voyage, the current generation is very radiation and gravity resistant.
[14/08 21:09] Then they discover some original humans in stasis.
[14/08 21:09] hello
[14/08 21:09] in a walled of section of the asteroid?
[14/08 21:09] To revive them they have to redo radiation shielding and reduce acceleration.
[14/08 21:09] Hi Elizabeth
[14/08 21:10] Yeah, hidden away. I make the old ones a mytical group of ancients and add in some current politics.
[14/08 21:10] that's an interesting idea, Dave.
[14/08 21:11] So then you don't know what to do once they are revived?
[14/08 21:11] So do the mutated humans revere the ancients? See them as throwbacks? Resent the extra work and delay required to keep them alive?
[14/08 21:11] I had planned on a Pollyanna story - all goodness, but I've been turned by the dark side.
[14/08 21:12] Both Elizabeth.
[14/08 21:12] Are there those among the current generation who didn't think the original humans should have been taken out of stasis?
[14/08 21:12] What if they don't make the transition and die off? And of course there's accusations of other plots...
[14/08 21:13] Two political factions, one side has been tricked into pulling the plug on them and giving the a nice ceremony.
[14/08 21:14] and what are they going to do with the original humans at journey's end?
[14/08 21:14] That's the easy part. The journey is long enough that tehy won't survive to the end.
[14/08 21:15] So is there a main character who has to decide if his or her great-grandmother should pass on?
[14/08 21:15] I was thinking a short, then a novella, now I'm wondering if it is a novel.
[14/08 21:16] "pull the plug?" Perhaps sometime of correllary. Just playing
[14/08 21:16] There is the current leader and the leader of the opposition.
[14/08 21:17] The current leader came out for revival and delaying the trip, so the opposition came out against it.
[14/08 21:18] It could be all of those, Dave, depending on how much of the story you want to tell.
[14/08 21:19] I was hoping that once I started writing the ending would come, but no such luck.
[14/08 21:19] Yes, could easily spiral into a big story. That's one of my goals, in my next few short stories, if I get to them... keep them tight, around 4-5k.
[14/08 21:20] I started writing it as a short but it refuses to stay that way.
[14/08 21:20] One problem I'm having is all the back story that is needed if I go the long route.
[14/08 21:21] what's the main conflict?
[14/08 21:21] Keep backstory to a MINNIMUM, imo
[14/08 21:21] Maybe I should write that either for a prologue or just to get it set in my mind
[14/08 21:22] *** acmfox has joined the chatbox
[14/08 21:22] The main conflict is the two political sides struggling for power and these people in stasis as the pawn
[14/08 21:22] Hi Anneliese
[14/08 21:22] Drop the characters in the middle of the conflict. If it fits intos GenE, I don't believe a lot of backstory will be necessary for each story; especially if it's a later story.
[14/08 21:22] Hi Anneliese
[14/08 21:22] hi Anneliese!
[14/08 21:22] Is this one of your phone conference nightes, Anneliese?
[14/08 21:23] Hi Dave!, CM!, Elizabeth! Sorry I'm late.
[14/08 21:23] You can always slip bits of the backstory into the action.
[14/08 21:23] No phone conference tonight, but working late to finish a project before they all arrive here on Thursday.
[14/08 21:23] CM, now that we have a quorum, did you want us to discuss your sub?
[14/08 21:23] Chris, at first I thought "drop" ment remove, instead of put.
[14/08 21:23] sounds like fun, Anneliese. Sticking out tongue
[14/08 21:24] my bad
[14/08 21:24] hey, I finally got a new version of Firefox, and the chatbox isn't booting me any more. Smiling
[14/08 21:24] Hooray!
[14/08 21:25] I do think I need to do the backstory, at least to get it set in my mind and to set the history of these stasis people. That turns out to be important.
[14/08 21:26] setting it in your mind can be very important.
[14/08 21:26] Elizabeth, weather.com used to kill my early version of Firefox. Now it seems to work.
[14/08 21:26] By all means do the backstory...then leave most of it in your notebook. Smiling
[14/08 21:27] Smiling
[14/08 21:28] Anneliese, Elizabeth, Oceans of the Mind is doing a first contact story (Thanks Chris for the pointer) Ihad send my Contact story in a year ago. Question, do I mention that when i send it in again?
[14/08 21:28] Are you resending the same sub to the same place?
[14/08 21:28] If you do, say that you've rewritten it.
[14/08 21:29] Unless, of course, they've changed editors in the meantime. Smiling
[14/08 21:29] That's the plan. WHen they rejected it they said they didn't have a theme issue for it. Now they do.
[14/08 21:29] also mention his conmments
[14/08 21:31] I'd mention the comments... as a way of saying that you're responding directly to this reqest.
[14/08 21:32]
[14/08 21:32] Good, no one says not to try again. Since it's e-mail it won't even cost me anything.
[14/08 21:33] I agree with Anneliese.
[14/08 21:34] Agreement all around.
[14/08 21:36] (Either I'm missing most of the posts, or I killed the chat)
[14/08 21:36] CM, did you want to discuss your sub tonight? Or save it for another time?
[14/08 21:37] Is it my night?
[14/08 21:37] Yup.
[14/08 21:37] If you have feedback, go for it.
[14/08 21:37] (Sorry, it's going to take me a while to get to writing a critique)
[14/08 21:38] I think the story is really coming along.
[14/08 21:38] Pacing seemed good.
[14/08 21:38] Loved the appearance of Tin's grandmother, especially after Tin sees her gravestone on the island.
[14/08 21:38] We now have a real mystery on our hands.
[14/08 21:38] I agree with Elizabeth.
[14/08 21:38] Though...
[14/08 21:39] I would have liked a bit of transition between the two chapters.
[14/08 21:39] I have some major issues with these two chapters, so feel free to let loose.
[14/08 21:40] nodding, very valid criticism, Anneliese. I agree.
[14/08 21:40] OK, letting loose here...
[14/08 21:41] IMO, much of chapter 3 didn't feel germain to the story.
[14/08 21:41] I wondered if you could have set up the situation better...
[14/08 21:41] I didn't need a transition. But I did wonder about Tin's fixation on the gravestone
[14/08 21:42] with stony silence on the ferry home, rather than the school day.
[14/08 21:42] While I like the chitchat between the girls, and between her and her brother, but they seem kind of peripheral to the story.
[14/08 21:42] Ack. Lost my train of thought there.
[14/08 21:43] I think I'd like to hop on that train... sounds like it's going in the same direction I was trying to go. Smiling
[14/08 21:43] There's a lot of narrative in Chapter 3. You do some delving into Tin's thoughts, as she tries to make sense of the camping trip, but I'd like to see more.
[14/08 21:44] Have it interfere with her day-to-day existence, or hint at problems to come.
[14/08 21:44] Does she see dragons under the microscope when she should be observing onion cells?
[14/08 21:45] Or wisps of menacing fog?
[14/08 21:45] Find herself drawing the gravestone when she should be taking notes?
[14/08 21:45] Maybe it gets foggy as she's making her way home.
[14/08 21:46] Doing calculation related to the birth/death dates?
[14/08 21:47] These few scenes have yet to gel for me, so all this is very useful.
[14/08 21:47] ...She was twelve and had her social standing figured out much to her mother's dismay. ...
[14/08 21:47] ... will this figure later in the story?
[14/08 21:47] Anneliese, that line is already deleted.
[14/08 21:48] Never mind, then. Laughing out loud
[14/08 21:48] I like the drawing the gravestone thought.
[14/08 21:48] Yeah, I'd think she'd be trying to figure out the dates, and thinking, "Grandma can't possibly be that old."
[14/08 21:48] Or just repeatedly writing the inscription rather than taking notes.
[14/08 21:50] Will Tin's school buddies be part of the story overall?
[14/08 21:50] Or her siblings?
[14/08 21:51] Ryan and the Grandmother are the two major other characters, as well as, Burfield
[14/08 21:51] I remember you mentioning with your last sub that her brother would play a role.
[14/08 21:51] How much do you have written and/or outlined?
[14/08 21:51] her friends and a few others, sister, parents, play strong supporting rolls.
[14/08 21:51] ...perhaps Chapter 3 needs to focus more on developing the relationship with Ryan than the other girls.
[14/08 21:52] Dave, this was my Nov Nano project. The whole thing is done, and I'm doing major rewrites before I sent each section off.
[14/08 21:52] I think you need some action soon.
[14/08 21:52] If Ryan is the typical older brother, he can be a good foil for Tin and her dragonish visions.
[14/08 21:52] You mentioned that you have issues with this sub... Care to share?
[14/08 21:53] And a good source of tension, if he doesn't believe her/is acting in opposition to her.
[14/08 21:54] Nothing specific, Anneliese--doesn't feel likes its gelled to me, mostly. But I know the transitions between sections is bad. Don't quite feel I've got the dialogue clicking. I feel like I have what I need, but it's not organized well. I'm showing things that aren't really necessary, and forgetting to show one or two things that are necessary.
[14/08 21:56] I think David has a point--you need some out-and-out conflict soon.
[14/08 21:56] We need to see Tin in a dilemna of some sort.
[14/08 21:56] Yes, you might have had an opportunity for some conflict with Tin and the girls... serious peer pressure opportunities there.
[14/08 21:57] Or, she could get detention for bringing a book on dragons rathern than her English text to class.
[14/08 21:59] I think that's another good point. Tin's TOO passive in the early going.
[14/08 22:00] Maybe a dream at the end of chapter two. Sort of a prologue for the battle between the dragons and bears.
[14/08 22:01] Or during school
[14/08 22:02] I'm thinking of putting Burfield into Chapter 2 and not have the parents know or see their meeting; basically have it happen after Tin finds the grave, which I believe is interesting, but not quite interesting enough.
[14/08 22:02] Daydreaming mitodraconia
[14/08 22:02] ANd her grandmother knows about it
[14/08 22:03] Any thoughts?
[14/08 22:03] What is Burfield's role?
[14/08 22:03] I kind of like it where it is... so far.
[14/08 22:03] I think it's a given that her grandmother will know about things like this.
[14/08 22:04] Burfield is the sympathetic villian
[14/08 22:06] I'm not sure about the dynamics of having Burfield encounter Tin without her parents around just yet.
[14/08 22:06] or maybe not so sympathetic. Tin will have something he wants, in order for the Bears to destroy the dragons. Essential plot; Tin must balance the war between the Dragons and Bears...
[14/08 22:07] Burfield on one side, grandmother on the other and Tin in the middle?
[14/08 22:07] is she supposed to keep the two sides from destroying each other?
[14/08 22:07] So... Dragons and Bears must ultimately balance each other, with neither dominating?
[14/08 22:08] What if she contacts Burfield (phone or e-mail if she can't get back to the island right away) to ask about the story, and try to get some more information?
[14/08 22:08] Essentially, Dave, though there is another character, Mugwa.
[14/08 22:08] Especially if her parents won't volunteer any information.
[14/08 22:08] Yes, Elizabeth
[14/08 22:09] Mugwa is the Odawa Bear representative; Tin's Grandmother is the Dragon representative, and Burfield is an accidental perversion of the balance--his ancestor was caught in the Bear and Dragon crossfire, and the Burfield family has taken sides, upsetting the balance.
[14/08 22:10] Tin is then called on to balance out Burfield.
[14/08 22:11] I don't want to keep anyone later than usual tonight. I'll submit a few more chapters soon so we'll discuss this again soon.
[14/08 22:11] Unless Burfield's ancestry is Odawa, does that work?
[14/08 22:11] Huh, Anneliese?
[14/08 22:12] Tin is related to the Dragon through ancestry.
[14/08 22:12] Correct
[14/08 22:12] Is the grandmother grooming Tin to take her role?
[14/08 22:13] So, an imbalance should be corrected either by another neutral party, if Burfield is neutral.
[14/08 22:13] Or the imbalance would be due to an excess of Bear.
[14/08 22:13] so does Mugwa have a present-day representative?
[14/08 22:13] ... to be mathematical correct, that is Eye-wink
[14/08 22:13] Correct, Dave. But Burfield is not neutral. He's firmly on the side of the Bears, thus why I had Tin be on the side of the Dragons.
[14/08 22:14] Does that balance?
[14/08 22:14] Yes, Elizabeth, Mugwa will come in soon.
[14/08 22:15] Don't know... I'll have to read the story!
[14/08 22:15] That should balance things out...
[14/08 22:15] Yeah, it's a little messy. I blame Nano! Smiling
[14/08 22:15] Is the grandmother brining Tin in early to help against Burfield?
[14/08 22:15] lol!
[14/08 22:15] It's much better than i thought, but there's still plenty of kinks to work out.
[14/08 22:16] In a sense, Dave.
[14/08 22:16] Well, I'm certainly looking forward to reading more.
[14/08 22:17] so am I...but I will have to sign off soon. Send more soon!
[14/08 22:18] Do you want this chat saved?
[14/08 22:18] Yes please
[14/08 22:18] Thanks for the feedback all.
[14/08 22:18] Your wish is my command Smiling
[14/08 22:19] Time sure went fast tonight.
[14/08 22:19] Have a good week. Let me know how the GenE story goes, Dave. Look forward to reading it.
[14/08 22:19] Gnight all.
[14/08 22:19] Yes, everyone... have a good night and good week.
[14/08 22:19] It's being slow to come out.
[14/08 22:20] Bye, til next week.
[14/08 22:20] Nighters.
[14/08 22:20] good night all!

[07/08 20:21] *** DaveK has joined the chatbox
[07/08 20:43] Hello
[07/08 20:52] *** Jana has joined the chatbox
[07/08 20:52] HI Jana
[07/08 20:52] WOW I was on time tonight, and where is everybody?
[07/08 20:53] You're a bit early
[07/08 20:53] Oh dear...how early?
[07/08 20:53] Check the time stamp to the left. About 7 minutes
[07/08 20:54] I can never get used to Eastern Time vs. Central
[07/08 20:55] Only one hour
[07/08 20:55] Hang on I need to go get a snack...brb
[07/08 20:55] Bring me one too
[07/08 20:58] *lol* Here ya go. *handing you a bowl of cereal and a spoon*
[07/08 20:59] Eew
[07/08 20:59] Are we picking on your submission tonight?
[07/08 20:59] I have no idea. *wince* Hope not.
[07/08 20:59] *** acmfox has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:00] Don't drip on the keyboard
[07/08 21:00] Hi Dave!
[07/08 21:00] Hi Jana!
[07/08 21:00] I promise my next submission of the book will be enjoyable.
[07/08 21:00] Hi Anneliese
[07/08 21:00] Hey there!
[07/08 21:00] Dave doesn't like my snack of cereal
[07/08 21:01] Cereal is OK... just don't spill the milk Smiling
[07/08 21:02] I want ice cream
[07/08 21:02] Dave, I'll let you have some of my red seedless grapes.
[07/08 21:02] No ice cream here Sad
[07/08 21:02] Hypoglycemic here....cereal better for me
[07/08 21:02] Grape ice cream ??
[07/08 21:02] EWWWWWWW
[07/08 21:03] I've done grape pie, but not grape ice cream... don't know about that.
[07/08 21:03] *** camidon has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:03] *shudder*
[07/08 21:03] Hey cam
[07/08 21:03] Hi Chris
[07/08 21:03] Hi CM!
[07/08 21:03] Evening All
[07/08 21:04] Cam...Chris...I'll get the names straight yet
[07/08 21:04] If we continue down this path we'll be doing another challenge
[07/08 21:04] I answer to just about anything, Jana
[07/08 21:04] Ya know, Dave, I was thinking the same thing Eye-wink
[07/08 21:04] Ah, yes, attack of the hyperglycemic grape ice cream mutants
[07/08 21:04] Ah, yes, attack of the hyperglycemic grape ice cream mutants
[07/08 21:04] Yup... he even answers to CM! Laughing out loud
[07/08 21:05] BTW, I signed up for a fiction writing class at the local senior center
[07/08 21:05] Cool!
[07/08 21:05] Anneliese, the past few weeks I've had to log in twice to the SFWW site in order for the "chat" link to appear on the left side menu. The first time it says I'm logged in, but there's no link, so I log in again, and the "chat" link magically appears. Any thoughts?
[07/08 21:05] Let us know how it goes.
[07/08 21:06] Congrats Dave. I think you'll like it
[07/08 21:06] Same happened to me when I logged in.
[07/08 21:06] hyper? *giggle* I'm more like hypo
[07/08 21:06] Yes, I used to hide behind CM, though it doesn't work to well--I've stuck my pointy nose into too many nooks and SFWW crannies.
[07/08 21:06] Did you have to log in two times in a row in order for the chat link to show up?
[07/08 21:06] It starts in September
[07/08 21:06] Ice cream wouldn't even phase me
[07/08 21:06] I signed up for level two
[07/08 21:06] Yes, Dave, keep us posted, perhaps on the sfww bboard.
[07/08 21:07] Yes, Anneliese, two times in a row,
[07/08 21:07] Well then you have a month polish up your style and amaze the professor
[07/08 21:07] Maybe a blog
[07/08 21:07] DaveK tries to get educated
[07/08 21:07] Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one... it hasn't happened to me....
[07/08 21:07] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:07] *grin*
[07/08 21:07] hi there! Sorry I'm late.
[07/08 21:07] Breaking news: DaveK learns of the comma
[07/08 21:07] What I have noticed, is that it doesn't seem to remember my login as it used to.
[07/08 21:07] Hi Elizabeth!
[07/08 21:07] Evening, Elizabeth.
[07/08 21:08] Hey compared to when I normally get on here, you're early!
[07/08 21:08] Hi Elizabeth
[07/08 21:08] I thought I'd worn the dog out, but I was wrong...
[07/08 21:08] Talk to Greg about the comma, Dave. He likes to nag me about them, so I turn around and nag others!
[07/08 21:08] I still haven't gotten back to install all the new goodies... who knows what I may yet break!
[07/08 21:09] lol!
[07/08 21:09] Has anyone tried the private messaging yet?
[07/08 21:09] Any more semi-retired SFWW'ers get back into your good graces?
[07/08 21:10] Nope... I hope to send out the prunned list this week.
[07/08 21:10] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:11] Also, is anyone going to post some more quotes?
[07/08 21:11] Mary is waiting for you to acknowledge her on the list
[07/08 21:11] Got a random email from "sunwolf". Seems he went camping on South Manitou or something and was interested in looking into the stuff I've recently submitted to the group. Don't know what will come of it.,
[07/08 21:11] Oops... lost Elizabeth
[07/08 21:11] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:11] Not yet. Haven't gotten that bold. Smiling
[07/08 21:11] I haven't gotten anything from Mary yet... Ask her to resend, if you get the chance, please?
[07/08 21:12] I'm on the phone with her right now ...hang on
[07/08 21:12] Sunwolf... haven't heard from him in forever!
[07/08 21:12] Maybe I should prod him a little...
[07/08 21:12] Anneliese, did you get anything from him? Sunwolf (John?)
[07/08 21:12] I started my GenE story. Only about 500 words
[07/08 21:12] She said she'll send you something shortly
[07/08 21:13] Nope. Not to my recollection.
[07/08 21:13] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:13] Great! (goes to both Dave and Jana)
[07/08 21:13] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:13] Bravo, Dave (notice correct comma use). Any amount of words for the GenE project is a good start!
[07/08 21:13] Haven't heard from sunwolf in a while.
[07/08 21:13] *beaming*
[07/08 21:14] I meant I wrote 500 words, not that the story is finished at 500
[07/08 21:14] So, Jana, what are you *beaming*? My receptors aren't fully charged tonight.
[07/08 21:14] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:14] Yes, Dave, that was understood! It's still progress. (again notice correct comma usage and an apostrophe tossed in for good measure!)
[07/08 21:14] That's about 480 words more than me, Dave.
[07/08 21:15] Oh I'm doing far better at getting my book finished.
[07/08 21:15] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:15] so, Jana, did you want us to discuss your sub?
[07/08 21:15] Kind of risky, sending in a intro after yopu've written most of the story
[07/08 21:15] *cringe* Ummm....I dunno. I'm thinking I should delete the Introduction
[07/08 21:16] I couldn't sleep last night, so at 3:00AM i got up and wrote for an hour and a half. Started my Teen caving novel I've been meaning to write for a few years now. Not sfww related at all.
[07/08 21:16] Isn't it SciFi?
[07/08 21:16] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:16] Does that help you get to sleep? If I write late at night, I'm up all night writing.
[07/08 21:17] Yes, Jana, feel free to pick out brains and ask questions if you would like feedback.
[07/08 21:17] Elizabeth... maybe you should try changing your color again?
[07/08 21:17] I finished the first chapter, and when I paused, my exhaustion hit, and I was able to sleep. Maybe I should do that more often.
[07/08 21:17] Actually the introduction doesn't do the book justice. I think after the prologue is read, it would start to make sense
[07/08 21:18] Depends on how you feel when you wake up
[07/08 21:18] Dave, I always feel bad when I wake up, so that aspect doesn't matter!
[07/08 21:18] An introduction... a prologue... then chapter 1?
[07/08 21:18] Yup
[07/08 21:18] Jana, if I may ask, what was your intention with the introduction?
[07/08 21:19] A vague history of what was going on in the alternate reality, so things would make even better sense futher along in the book
[07/08 21:20] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:20] was the intro intended to be a sample query? The sort of thing you would send to a prospective agent or publisher?
[07/08 21:20] Do you never recap this history in the main story?
[07/08 21:20] That was my thought. We should figure out the alternative history as we read the story.
[07/08 21:20] Only vaguely touched upon, from time to time, during the book. I guess the intro could be a sample quety
[07/08 21:21] query
[07/08 21:21] (It appears Elizabeth is having temporal phase problems)
[07/08 21:21] Because the alternate history, however interesting, isn't the main story. And I found it odd that your introduction didn't mention anything about the characters in the story.
[07/08 21:21] I think I've been sucked into a very small wormhole.
[07/08 21:21] (Elizabeth, Is Texas really in a different dimension?)
[07/08 21:22] If the history is not needed why include it?
[07/08 21:22] (I've been suspicious for some time)
[07/08 21:22] If Texas isn't in a different dimension, it ought to be. Safer for the rest of the country.
[07/08 21:22] (It always seems that way when I visit Texas)
[07/08 21:22] A good query is part synopsis and part sales pitch.
[07/08 21:22] I can insert the history as I go along. The prologue introduces Kai, a bit. Then Chapter 1 you see more of her. Chapter 2 and 3 you are introduced to the hero.
[07/08 21:23] (my apologies for digression --randome smiley here: :sm110
[07/08 21:23] How long is the prologue...roughly?
[07/08 21:23] :smt110
[07/08 21:23] It would be best to insert the history as the story unfolds, small pieces at a time.
[07/08 21:23] About a page page and a half? Hang on I'll go do a word count
[07/08 21:24] Have you heard of "narrative lumps"?
[07/08 21:24] Agrees with Elizabeth. Plot history should unhold with character history.
[07/08 21:24] They're large chunks of narrative--background history, description, etc.--without any story action to break them up. They're best avoided.
[07/08 21:24] and the plot history IS interesting, so if the characters are interesting, that's much to look forward to in the book.
[07/08 21:24] AH
[07/08 21:25] The other pitfall SF writers tend to have--because we have to spend much more time developing worlds and histories--is to put all of the background into the book.
[07/08 21:25] 2 pages....1,190 words
[07/08 21:25] Agrees with Elizabeth. Most people skip and semblence of narrative dumps.
[07/08 21:25] Yeah, what Elizabeth said.
[07/08 21:25] All of that historical stuff needs to be in your notes, so that you can work it out, but not all of it will need to go into the story.
[07/08 21:26] And your first chapter is roughly how many pages?
[07/08 21:26] that means authors should too, unless one is writing history books,
[07/08 21:26] *nod* Taking all this to heart, believe me....want it to be a best seller
[07/08 21:27] We want it to be a best seller also Smiling
[07/08 21:27] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:27] Chapter 1 is five pages, 3,373 words.
[07/08 21:27] Just start submitting it to the group. We'll be happy to tell you what to cut.
[07/08 21:27] brb...puppy is demanding attention
[07/08 21:27] Then why don't you send us both the prologue and the first chapter as your next sub.
[07/08 21:27] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:27] If you present the entire alternative history in one big piece, some readers will skip it, while others (the historically obsessed) will start to nitpick it.
[07/08 21:28] agrees with Anneliese
[07/08 21:28] No, no, 3373 words. just wrong. Cut them and start again.
[07/08 21:28] You're so agreeable tonight, CM!
[07/08 21:29] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:29] I'm confused, Dave, what are you asking Jana to cut?
[07/08 21:29] Elizabeth, maybe you should change browsers.
[07/08 21:30] I'm being a smart ass.
[07/08 21:30] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:30] I think the prologue and first chapter would be a good size for a submission.
[07/08 21:30] Was this another comma comment?
[07/08 21:31] I'm in Firefox. Maybe I need to download a newer version. :::sigh:::
[07/08 21:31] Dave, and you're taking a writing class at a Senior Center? If you're really such a smart ass, this could provide many, many writable moments... nothing like setting up your own material to mine.
[07/08 21:31] What version are you using?
[07/08 21:32] Version of Firefox, that is.
[07/08 21:32] I agree. Send off the prologue and first chapter next time around.
[07/08 21:32] Dave, next time and a smiley or six! :smt16, :smt45, smt100
[07/08 21:32] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:33] Yes, I do need to get in the habit of using smileys
[07/08 21:33] Are your smilies not working correctly tonight?
[07/08 21:33] :smt100 :smt100 :smt100
[07/08 21:33] :smt081
[07/08 21:33] Eye-wink
[07/08 21:33] Yes, my random smileys don't seem to work so well.
[07/08 21:33] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:34] good question. Smiling
[07/08 21:34] ;-(
[07/08 21:34] Version 1.0.6.
[07/08 21:35] Pretty ancient, I know.
[07/08 21:35] Anneliese, have you heard from bogwitch
[07/08 21:35] You're way behind. Definitely download a newer version.
[07/08 21:35] No, I haven't heard from bogwitch in a while. Does anyone want to drop her an email?
[07/08 21:35] The newere versions download newer version automatically
[07/08 21:35] I'm back
[07/08 21:36] Current version is 1.5.0.6
[07/08 21:36] I'll poke bogwitch
[07/08 21:36] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:36] Well okay if you think BOTH submissions would be acceptable I'll do so
[07/08 21:36] What kind of puppy?
[07/08 21:36] Anything less than 5K words is usually fine. Around 3K is always good.
[07/08 21:37] Actually he's not a puppy, technically. 2 year old MinPin.
[07/08 21:37] The older dog had to go out too
[07/08 21:37] Although, we've had over 10K, but that's really too much.
[07/08 21:37] Jana, no matter what, keep plugging away.
[07/08 21:37] I'll see what I can do!
[07/08 21:37] Story of my life...keep on plugging away
[07/08 21:38] Awww, you can do it! You're good at that :smt041
[07/08 21:38] SIgh, yes, raising hand tentatively. I've been known to submit the 13k and 10k whoppers. :smt104 I blame sfwwmoder--he started it when I was first with the group, a 16k monster novella!
[07/08 21:39] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:39] :smt16
[07/08 21:39] *LOL* You've been talking to Mary about that , haven't you?!
[07/08 21:39] Yep. He was good for those uber-long subs.
[07/08 21:39] But were they interesting?
[07/08 21:39] (Jana, if you haven't noticed, we're kinda addicted to smilies here)
[07/08 21:39] I've submitted a couple of monsters myself.
[07/08 21:40] Yes, they were all interesting.
[07/08 21:40] I found sfwwmoder's universe very interesting.
[07/08 21:40] And he did a very good job of mixing the personal, historical, and scientific stuff.
[07/08 21:40] ...interesting in some form at least, like doorstops or kindling for christmas fires Smiling
[07/08 21:40] Before my time
[07/08 21:41] Which is how you keep the reader's interest.
[07/08 21:41] geez, that was 8 years ago.
[07/08 21:41] I like smileys as well, but have yet to figure out how to put them here
[07/08 21:41] I've thrown some pretty big chapters at the group.
[07/08 21:41] man, has it been that long already? I feel OLD.
[07/08 21:42] (Check out the Compose Tips link)
[07/08 21:42] Okey dokey!
[07/08 21:42] Jana, if I may ask, who/what are some of the characters in your book? For example, if I was reading the back of the book, what would it say about your characters?
[07/08 21:42] You feel OLD! I AM old!
[07/08 21:43] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:43] :smt074 None of that. You're only old if you type slow.
[07/08 21:43] ACK....mmmm...Kai is half Osage and half Irish, been a loner all her life and is now having to work with a male partner. Michael is her field commander and partner, and is appaled at how backwards she can be at times
[07/08 21:43] :smt015
[07/08 21:43] Then I'm VERY old, as I type slowly
[07/08 21:44] Besides, old ideas are often tweaked into stunning new revelations!
[07/08 21:44] Only kidding about the tpying comment btw, Sticking out tongue
[07/08 21:44] Bang, bang
[07/08 21:45] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:45] (The official SFWW smilie mascot)
[07/08 21:45] Catch, Anneliese! :smt073
[07/08 21:45] :smt019
[07/08 21:45] It was only a matter of time before the smileycide showed up.
[07/08 21:45] No alien mascot? Like the favicon
[07/08 21:45] *lol*
[07/08 21:46] So does anyone do "character sketches"? Physically outline any of their characters on paper or on the computer?
[07/08 21:46] so what is Kai's and Michael's mission? What are they trying to do over the course of the story? What are the obstacles in their way? That's the part of the story that catches the reader's interest.
[07/08 21:46] Actually, the favicon is the default drupal one... I haven't gotten around to making one Sad
[07/08 21:46] I do character sketches for the main characters in novels.
[07/08 21:46] I've never done a character outline
[07/08 21:47] Is so, to what extent?
[07/08 21:47] Smiling
[07/08 21:47] Outlined on paper, so the files don't go poof. Smiling
[07/08 21:47] IF so, that is, to what extent?
[07/08 21:47] Mine are pretty basic: strengths, weaknesses, short history, appearance.
[07/08 21:47] Well done, Elizabeth!
[07/08 21:47] Mission: To rescue the Millenium Bloods from a madman, locate said madman and stop him from trying to take over the world
[07/08 21:47] I have a character database for Chrysalis which contains all my character notes.
[07/08 21:48] What their main goal and main obstacle(s) are, and how they will be changed by the end.
[07/08 21:48] Mostly name, job position, relationship to mc's, stuff like that.
[07/08 21:48] Millenium Bloods. Great name
[07/08 21:48] Jana, that's what you would put on the back cover of the book.
[07/08 21:48] That's the sort of potential conflict that will get a reader's attention.
[07/08 21:48] Agrees with CM.
[07/08 21:49] Changed: Hmmm...Kai will learn to trust men, and actually discover what love truly is. Michael to relax and realize not everything has to be done by the book
[07/08 21:49] Cool to know. I've done some outlining for some works, but not for my recent NaNo novels. I'm still working out what worked the best.
[07/08 21:49] That would definitely catch people's attention, if they read the back flap
[07/08 21:50] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:50] And the more quickly you establish that in your storyline, the better.
[07/08 21:50] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:50] Especially when you're trying to take out madmen. Smiling They don't generally follow accepted rules of engagement.
[07/08 21:50] CM, I'm looking also. I want to actually accomplish NaNo this year.
[07/08 21:51] Anneliese. Looking at what? I missed something.
[07/08 21:51] Yeah especially this madman!
[07/08 21:51] He's a Millenium Blood as well
[07/08 21:52] Looking at an organized methodology... i.e., outline, character sketches, etc, in prep for writing.
[07/08 21:52] Anybody who would want to take over the world has to be crazy, IMHO. Smiling
[07/08 21:52] Oh gods I hate outlines!
[07/08 21:52] So, in addition to ruling the world, he knows what competition he needs to eliminate.
[07/08 21:52] I'm not certain if I'll do Nano this year. I must admit that last years last second success nearly destroyed my personal life--I was not pleasant to be around as I demanded every last second to write, sigh.
[07/08 21:52] And how they operate.
[07/08 21:52] Oh yeah he knows alright!
[07/08 21:52] Yea, but crazy people are so much fun!
[07/08 21:53] Poor Kai, she's so powerful that he wants to kidnap her for his breeding program
[07/08 21:53] Many would profess that writers are crazy...
[07/08 21:53] *giggle* I've had a lot of fun writing the crazy madman
[07/08 21:53] And lots of fun to write about, too. Smiling
[07/08 21:53] It helps to be crazy!
[07/08 21:53] Yea, I sort of figured that out also... you can get away with Nano one year, but most folks don't care to put up with you after that.
[07/08 21:54] However Kai has no idea what all of her powers are
[07/08 21:54] Ah, Breeding Program--that sounds juicy! As if the word was scrawled across people's posteriors! Oh wait, it IS scrawled across their posteriors these days!
[07/08 21:54] *rotflmao*
[07/08 21:54] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:54] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 21:54] So Kai and Michael are targets, even as they think they're targeting this guy. Could have some great cat-and-mouse, double-crossing plotlines here.
[07/08 21:55] *grin* Two of the high tech security guards, that were employed by the madman, defected and are now on the good guys side
[07/08 21:56] It takes Kai's special abilities to even find the madman
[07/08 21:56] Which makes her even more of a target. I suspect that when she tracks him, she reveals her own position.
[07/08 21:56] brb, my puppy is demanding attention.
[07/08 21:56] *grin* well not really....she can communicate with Mother Earth, so a lot of it can be masked that way
[07/08 21:57] oooh more puppies!
[07/08 21:57] Jana, if you need help making someone evil, listen to Elizabeth...
[07/08 21:57] She is the queen of evil and deviousness.
[07/08 21:57] lol
[07/08 21:57] *grin* Oh I am
[07/08 21:57] Thus why she is in charge of sfww!
[07/08 21:58] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 21:58] (Don't tell her, but the only way we can control her is to keep bouncing her in and out of the chatroom)
[07/08 21:58] uh oh, we scared her away!
[07/08 21:58] *giggling*
[07/08 21:59] I think we're all a little devious...
[07/08 21:59] OH OH OH.....y'all have given me an eviiiiiiiiiiiil idea
[07/08 21:59] It's why we write SF, and not some other type of novel...say romance?
[07/08 21:59] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[07/08 22:00] Tell! Tell!
[07/08 22:00] lol!
[07/08 22:00] need to make myself the crown of evil and deviousness. Smiling
[07/08 22:00] She gets captured, and her partner has to blow part of the mission to get her out
[07/08 22:00] shhhh, she's back, quit talking behind our nefarious leader's back! :smt117
[07/08 22:00] I actually feel sorry for the madman, Kai isn't a nice fighter
[07/08 22:01] I am the nefarious leader, and I already know what you've said! Bwahahaha!
[07/08 22:01] :smt059
[07/08 22:01] I don't think that will fool her
[07/08 22:01] Oh well, I should stop chasing chickens. I've got the early shift tomorrow. Jana, I look forward to more. Dave, keep pushing that GenE story.
[07/08 22:01] And part of a good villain is that we should feel some commonality with him or her, no matter how appalling he or she is.
[07/08 22:02] 'Night Chris
[07/08 22:02] Have a pleseant, writing-filled week.
[07/08 22:02] I'm glad you could make it tonight, CM.
[07/08 22:02] Plus it's always fun to see the put-upon, captured heroine get back up and kick some evildoer tail.
[07/08 22:02] *giggle* Kai is just a gal who's done things her own way all her life
[07/08 22:02] gnight all.
[07/08 22:02] 'night CM, it was good talking to you.
[07/08 22:02] Oh she'll kick tail alright
[07/08 22:03] Goodnight....must run myself. SEE what happens when you give me ideas?
[07/08 22:03] *pout* Now I'll be up all night writing
[07/08 22:03] So, Kai might also learn that there is a line one cannot cross and maintain the same sense of self.
[07/08 22:03] *** camidon has left the chatbox
[07/08 22:03] Well, I hope it has been a productive chat for you, Jana.
[07/08 22:04] Yeah
[07/08 22:04] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[07/08 22:04] It has indeed been productive. I thank one and all for the ideas
[07/08 22:04] And our foolishness wasn't off-putting.
[07/08 22:04] night night! *racing from the room, before getting more ideas*
[07/08 22:04] Nighters.
[07/08 22:04] BYe, see you next week.

[05/06 20:56] Hello Roy
[05/06 20:57] How's it going?
[05/06 20:57] *** camidon has joined the chatbox
[05/06 20:57] Is there a meeting tonight?
[05/06 20:57] Evening all
[05/06 20:57] Yes, just starting
[05/06 20:57] Hi Chris
[05/06 20:57] Hi, Cam
[05/06 20:57] Roy, there's a meeting if we say there's a meeting! Smiling
[05/06 20:58] What say you?
[05/06 20:58] Roy, one problem with your chatsettings is that the black text is hidden in the chat log page
[05/06 20:58] ???
[05/06 20:58] Since I spaced the chat last week I went there to see whaat had gone on.
[05/06 20:59] Assuming I don't fall asleep during it :smt015
[05/06 20:59] We'll try to keep you entertained. Chris
[05/06 21:00] Isn't that supposed to be my trick?
[05/06 21:01] Roy, I think I'll chat in smileys tonight. Here's my comments on your story: :smt031 :smt075 :smt043 :smt117 :smt089 (interpret as destired)
[05/06 21:02] You make it too easy
[05/06 21:02] Thanks, Dave
[05/06 21:03] I chose them at random, and no, I don't pla to chat in smileys. I'd do this: :smt068 to myself.
[05/06 21:03] Are we discussing Roy's story tonight?
[05/06 21:03] How's Colorado, Dave
[05/06 21:04] Hot and dry. We had a good snow yeaar but after that it has rained very little.
[05/06 21:04] Quite honestly, I didn't really think that story would work
[05/06 21:04] Dave, I thought so. Aren't Roy's story comments due today, which means its chat night for his story?
[05/06 21:05] The snow sounds good, but the rest sounds typical
[05/06 21:05] My story isy excerpted from a novel
[05/06 21:05] If he wants. I always thought it would be better to have the chat one week after the critiques were due.
[05/06 21:05] Why's that, Dave?
[05/06 21:05] Hotter and dryer then typical.
[05/06 21:05] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[05/06 21:06] hi there!
[05/06 21:06] Hi, eliz
[05/06 21:06] Give the author some time to think about the critiques. Plus, as a group we have been late.
[05/06 21:06] Why do you think it's better to chat a week later?
[05/06 21:06] ah
[05/06 21:06] Hot and dry would be nice. Right now I'm stuck with hot and humid.
[05/06 21:06] Hi Elizabeth.
[05/06 21:06] Evening, Elizabeth
[05/06 21:07] how's everybody doing?
[05/06 21:07] Gives the author time to shake off some of his angry
[05/06 21:07] Right now it's about 68 with a nice gentle breeze
[05/06 21:07] Had two glorious sunsets the past two days
[05/06 21:07] we are 70
[05/06 21:07] I hate you. Eye-wink
[05/06 21:07] It got up to 97 this afternoon.
[05/06 21:07] Why?
[05/06 21:07] *** acmfox has joined the chatbox
[05/06 21:07] We're probably 88 and 10% humidity
[05/06 21:07] You can spam me, Roy, if you feel the need, or toss egg at my Toyota, whichever is easier.
[05/06 21:08] what's wrong with 97?
[05/06 21:08] 97 and humid is pretty wretched, IMO.
[05/06 21:08] I'll try to huff and puff some of the weather down your way, Elizabeth, though that probably means it would snow here in northern MI.
[05/06 21:08] not in Nebraska
[05/06 21:08] lol CM!
[05/06 21:09] I was in Miami once98 and 98.. It was raining lightly ut hard to tell.
[05/06 21:09] I like snow, though, Smiling
[05/06 21:09] My thermostat was set in Minnesota and fine-tuned in Northern California. I don't do hot summers very well.
[05/06 21:09] Hi Everyone!
[05/06 21:09] Hi Anneliese
[05/06 21:09] hi Anneliese!
[05/06 21:09] Evening, Anneliese
[05/06 21:09] I saw 98 / 98 in Texas once
[05/06 21:10] Roy, do you wish to discuss your story tonight, or would you prefer to wait a week, as Dave suggests?
[05/06 21:10] no -- that is a fake -- Annaliese won't be here tonight
[05/06 21:10] I'm here, roy
[05/06 21:11] Just a wee tad tardy.
[05/06 21:11] Anyone have anything important to say about my story?
[05/06 21:11] It's just dawning on me that people who write scifi/fantasy are strange.
[05/06 21:11] I love the ecosystem and the culture you've set up, Roy.
[05/06 21:12] LOL! CM, it took you this long???
[05/06 21:12] It's going to be very hard for you to explain all of that and still keep a story going. Smiling
[05/06 21:12] TYT
[05/06 21:12] Did you say that it was part of a novel?
[05/06 21:12] Although you said this is part of a novel...that would give you enough space to explain everything about this world.
[05/06 21:12] yes
[05/06 21:13] This sub had very much the feel of a first chapter.
[05/06 21:13] Tupoin are wierd
[05/06 21:13] I agree with Elizabeth.
[05/06 21:13] This story is scatterwed out over half the book
[05/06 21:13] I don't know about that, Roy, they seemed pretty normal in your sub.
[05/06 21:14] Way to complicated for a short.
[05/06 21:14] Even if part of a novel, I strongly believe this could easily work as a short story.
[05/06 21:14] Did you extract parts for this sub, then?
[05/06 21:14] The world is complex, but not the plot.
[05/06 21:14] I agree with both Elizabeth and CM
[05/06 21:14] yes -- the story of Ving
[05/06 21:14] I like the Tupoin, but they're a sufficiently alien culture that you will either need to 1) make this a novel to get in all of the exposition or 2) plunge right into action so compelling that the reader will dig on for details of what's going on.
[05/06 21:15] MOst he compplexity of the world is not needed in the story
[05/06 21:15] If the world details are carefully chosen to support the story, the story of Ving would be a winner.
[05/06 21:16] perhaps I can rewrite it deleting much explanation
[05/06 21:16] and let the reader wonder
[05/06 21:17] To make it a short, yes. But it is an intreging ecosystem, keep it around.
[05/06 21:17] I think you can.
[05/06 21:17] Ving's story is compelling, and the outcast-makes-good story is one people can easily relate to.
[05/06 21:17] Even when the protagonist is a marine alien.
[05/06 21:17] It wasn't hard to grasp the basic alien culture you were describing.
[05/06 21:17] two or three minor comments on their world
[05/06 21:19] In the first few paragraphs I knew what was going on, and therefore was waiting for the plot to unfold, waiting, and waiting, and waiting, slowed down by the lush, but unnecessary descriptions.
[05/06 21:19] And there is some excellent dialogue that could be used to imply what their culture is like. Like the one where one of Ving's coworkers asks her how she learned mothers' music and she says, "No, I'm not a mother. I still have my senses."
[05/06 21:20] Then I found the plot, went: "hey, this is interesting," then the detail overload came back and knocked me off my surfboard.
[05/06 21:20] Yes, I agree, Elizabeth.
[05/06 21:20] Or where she reminisces about how her former teacher "gave in" to her hormones, thinks about what a good mind went to waste, and then says to herself, "Well, perhaps some of these calves are hers."
[05/06 21:20] Is this story believable as to its character?
[05/06 21:20] I fully believe, most of the needed detail came come out in the scenes and doesn't need to be "narrated"
[05/06 21:21] The descriptions have some excellent writing, but you've got to spread them a little thinner.
[05/06 21:21] As I said in my critque, was reminded of hal Clement's stories, Mission of Gravity for example.
[05/06 21:21] For me, the story was very believable.
[05/06 21:21] That is #1 for me
[05/06 21:21] It may be a good idea to review that and see how he introduces and alien world.
[05/06 21:22] What do you mean to its "character"?
[05/06 21:22] Do you mean were the characters believable?
[05/06 21:22] A vivid description of the calf roundup--what Ving sees and smells, what the panicked calves do and look like and how Ving and her companions react--would pull the reader right into the story, and go a long way towards explaining the culture.
[05/06 21:22] I with you again, Elizabeth.
[05/06 21:22] Can I grant the mental telepathy without explaining jellies?
[05/06 21:23] characters and story circumstances
[05/06 21:23] I belive Ving's character was absolutely believable. Werlekti's was not so well crafted, more of a "stock" feeling.
[05/06 21:23] I think so. Save the jellies and parasites for the novel.
[05/06 21:24] h, you can give them telepathy without explaining its source
[05/06 21:24] If you could show Ving or Werlekti using the computers, maybe.
[05/06 21:24] I believe Ving's situation was also believable. It was so believable, that I kept skimming, trying to GET to her story.
[05/06 21:25] Or Werlekti, in an insensitive moment, wondering aloud why Ving wasn't converted into computer interface long ago.
[05/06 21:25] And then rwegretting his thought?
[05/06 21:25] I also found Ving very believable, and skimmed other parts of the story to get back to what she was doing.
[05/06 21:26] Yes, you can "grant mental telepathy without explaining jellies" This reeks of novel material. Scifi readres are familar enough with the concept that you don't need a scientific rational, at least, imo, for a short story like this.
[05/06 21:26] Perhaps. Could be an example of Werlekti's bureaucratic and traditional instincts battling with his basic decency/wish to do the best thing for the harvest.
[05/06 21:26] That might help
[05/06 21:27] Because he does strike me as, basically, somebody who wants to do the right thing.
[05/06 21:27] It's just that his view of the right thing is so narrow.
[05/06 21:27] he is
[05/06 21:27] That's a very good character summary, Elizabeth.
[05/06 21:28] It would have taken me twelve sentences to say that.
[05/06 21:28] Werlekti got hung up on Ving being "abnormal"
[05/06 21:28] In my usual hard viewpoint, I'm more interested in the boilogy then the personel problems. Bwith this you can satisfy both types of interest.
[05/06 21:28] which is a very "human" reaction, this why this is good "human" fiction.
[05/06 21:29] si
[05/06 21:29] Exactly. Even though they're aliens, we can relate to them.
[05/06 21:30] all sci-fi wouild fail w/o empathy
[05/06 21:30] I agree with Dave; it's simply a matter of blending the two. Anything sniffing of hard scifi with a sympathetic character WILL sell.
[05/06 21:30] I'm going to leave and try IE to see if it drops my characters. Back soon
[05/06 21:31] I really nmeed a co-writer for some of my work
[05/06 21:31] And you have an extremely sympathetic character in Ving.
[05/06 21:31] I'm hoping that when the next update becomes available, there's an improved chatroom.
[05/06 21:31] Ving is a #1 sweetheart
[05/06 21:32] Why do you feel that you need a co-writer?
[05/06 21:32] more versatility
[05/06 21:33] More than you get from the critique process?
[05/06 21:33] I feel that way sometimes. I need someone to keep me working.
[05/06 21:33] Or more idea generation?
[05/06 21:33] mmmmmmmm -- if used correctly
[05/06 21:34] (I'm trying, Dave!)
[05/06 21:34] I guess we all do... hence our attempt at the collaborative GenE project.
[05/06 21:34] I need someone depending on me to give me a sense of urgency.
[05/06 21:34] I'm too easy on myself.
[05/06 21:35] I agree, Anneliese. Some ideas just dwarf my mind (like GenE) and I need others to bounce ideas
[05/06 21:35] and sometimes even that fails?
[05/06 21:35] I'm guilty of that also, Dave.
[05/06 21:35] I need somebody to say, "The laundry, the kid, and dinner are taken care of. Now WRITE!"
[05/06 21:35] Dave, are you implying you need a "deadline"?
[05/06 21:35] And to roll me out of bed earlier in the morning.
[05/06 21:36] Deadline, sort of,
[05/06 21:36] Gosh, Elizabeth, I can SAY that. It just won't make it true unfortunately.
[05/06 21:36] And to chill an occasional bneer for me
[05/06 21:36] I work best from a list of "to dos" I need to try that in my writing.
[05/06 21:37] Love beer, but I don't find it conducive to writing. Smiling
[05/06 21:38] I installed a new journal program as a means to help me with my writing... hasn't helped yet, though Sad
[05/06 21:38] To do: 1) Write, 2) Edit, 3) Write, 4) Critique, 5) Submit, 6) Read Critiques, 7) Egg Toyota, Cool Grumble, 9) Write. There you go, Dave!
[05/06 21:38] That's one of my problems with having a job. I come home, have a beer and then lack ambition.
[05/06 21:38] Damn, my 8 turned into a smiley!
[05/06 21:38] I need to locate the long lost enthusiasm of my youth
[05/06 21:38] What did you install?
[05/06 21:39] We need to have our in-person workshop.
[05/06 21:39] a lack of enthusiasm
[05/06 21:39] We can do that?
[05/06 21:40] That would be fun. When I sell my first book, I'll use a portion of the proceeds to arrange an SFWW workshop rendezvous.
[05/06 21:40] Maybe once my job is over, it now looks like it will drag into July, I will spend some effort into finding a local writing group.
[05/06 21:40] lol Anneliese...the one thing that absolutely kills my motivation for writing is a journal.
[05/06 21:40] I wrote pages and pages every day in middle school and high school...except when I was assigned to keep a journal.
[05/06 21:40] This is a program that lets you collect your notes and thoughs into one place, sift and sort them.
[05/06 21:40] Then I found it hard to crank out 500 words a day.
[05/06 21:41] I've been considering one of those software programs that lets you write a scene at a time and switch them around.
[05/06 21:41] I thought it would be a good place to trap my hundreds of little "useless information" files and organize them.
[05/06 21:41] Amazing how making something a requirement kills all desire to do it.
[05/06 21:41] The most comfortable writing technique for me, when I was younger and writing a lot more, was to write a given scene, and then figure out how to string all of the scenes together.
[05/06 21:41] Sort of what Lotus Notes is supposed to do, but fails miserably, IMO.
[05/06 21:42] Roy, any other questions on your story, before we stray to far into other subjects/rants/joys?
[05/06 21:42] I've gotten better at stringing scenes together, but terrible about putting the scenes on paper. Or PC.
[05/06 21:42] There is something called ywrter from spacejock that is supposed to be a novel organizer.
[05/06 21:42] I am ok with where my story is
[05/06 21:43] let's stray
[05/06 21:43] I have a crit started, I'll be getting it to you sometime.
[05/06 21:43] great
[05/06 21:44] Need to get several crits out. My apologies.
[05/06 21:44] This chat has helped to crystalize my thoughts into something (I hope) might be coherent.
[05/06 21:44] I'm still mulling over CM's story. I promise a crit one of these days... if you still want it.
[05/06 21:44] Anneliese, (tangent) is the axe falling yet, on (drum roll), the purge?
[05/06 21:45] A chat has done good, then.
[05/06 21:45] Sure, Anneliese. I always enjoy feedback, no matter how early or late or anything else
[05/06 21:45] Yes. It is supposed to. I meant to do the update last week, but work got in the way.
[05/06 21:45] How does that happen?
[05/06 21:46] LOL
[05/06 21:46] I haven't written a lick in two weeks (though I have done some editing, but not on the Folly)
[05/06 21:46] Plus, Boris sent me tons of suggestions on how to promote the group. When we have an open chat night, perhaps we can discuss some of them.
[05/06 21:46] I'm trying to keep up my writing in too many stories at one time
[05/06 21:47] Sure, lets plan to talk about that next
[05/06 21:47] week
[05/06 21:47] You have to get Folly *out there*. An Roy, you have to make Ving's story a novel.
[05/06 21:47] it is a novel
[05/06 21:47] want to buy a copy?
[05/06 21:48] And I have to either get going on my GenE story, or post my thoughts on the wiki.
[05/06 21:48] Have you already published it then?
[05/06 21:48] Boris was a pistol, that's for sure, lots of energy, but frankly all talk and no action... I quell my rioutous tongue
[05/06 21:48] I have my gen E story almost done -- I want to see MORE of them
[05/06 21:49] Boris wrote some nice reviews, though.
[05/06 21:49] IF you want Roy, I can send you my GenE stories, for starter reference.
[05/06 21:49] My novel has been published
[05/06 21:49] I have one started. Just have to finish it. I have a terrible time finishing anything lately.
[05/06 21:49] I was hoping to tlak Boris into writing something about screen plays, formats, how to market, but he came and went too fast.
[05/06 21:50] Published? Where?
[05/06 21:50] E-mail me anything == I love to read almost as much as writing
[05/06 21:51] they both went to the group before you returned to the list
[05/06 21:51] Published in 1997
[05/06 21:51] Let's see: I have trouble finishing projects, getting measurable work done, starting, um, need I go on?
[05/06 21:51] understood
[05/06 21:52] Like a hamster in a wheel, Anneliese? You're great anyway
[05/06 21:52] Who published it?
[05/06 21:52] So, Roy, in creating this short story, were you trying to create something in the vein of the novel?
[05/06 21:52] Title?
[05/06 21:52] Gee, thanks, CM.
[05/06 21:52] Come on man, we need specifics!
[05/06 21:52] I got the last of my tomatoes planted today and my peppers too
[05/06 21:53] Yes, I'll buy a copy.
[05/06 21:53] Tell aRidge Pub Co published my book
[05/06 21:53] We want to lavish you with praise and profits and a little egg yolk.
[05/06 21:53] I own Tell Ridge
[05/06 21:54] Yes! More power to you.
[05/06 21:54] Roy, were you ever around when Bruce Golden was in the group? He did the same thing.
[05/06 21:55] Title is Survival - Roots of the Rose
[05/06 21:55] And I have Bruce's book.
[05/06 21:55] I do not know Bruce
[05/06 21:55] I remember Roots of the Rose.
[05/06 21:55] email me details for ordering... how much and where I send the check.
[05/06 21:55] You have a copy?
[05/06 21:56] Anneliese, to continue the metaphors (what's up with all my stupid analogies lately?) better to spin the wheel than to do nothing at all. We're all in the same wheel.
[05/06 21:56] Now that you say the title, it rings a bell.
[05/06 21:57] I can't find a web site. But www.tomfolio.com has a copy for sale.
[05/06 21:57] To order send $15 (Retail price) to Roy Gugat , PO Box 524, Hickman, NE 68372
[05/06 21:57] ditto, Anneliese's question.
[05/06 21:58] I don't have a copy yet. But I do remember a couple of your submissions from that work.
[05/06 21:58] oops
[05/06 21:59] $15 is the wholesale price
[05/06 22:00] Did I submit chapters?
[05/06 22:00] Dave K == You alwso have a boo0k out?
[05/06 22:01] No, I have done shorts mostly. One try at a novelfor nanowrimo
[05/06 22:01] I love to trade books
[05/06 22:01] lishing
[05/06 22:02] I think you had the intro to the novel, or something like that. It was a long time ago. Smiling
[05/06 22:02] whoops, don't know where "lishing" came from. weird.
[05/06 22:03] A civil war sci-fi story?
[05/06 22:03] I'll say this for SFWW. At least, there are interesting people, with interesting ideas, who can have darn neat discussions.
[05/06 22:04] Amen
[05/06 22:04] with that segue, I'll intone my farewells for the evening.
[05/06 22:04] We did keep you awake Chris
[05/06 22:04] Hubby is stomping on the floor... my signal that it is time for bed.
[05/06 22:04] bye bye
[05/06 22:04] I pester you all to keep writing. And agree with Roy about getting some GenE stories into the SFWW queue.
[05/06 22:04] Very true, Dave. Mucho txs!
[05/06 22:05] okay...nighters all!
[05/06 22:05] Great chat, everyone. Let's all get at least 50 words written by next week Smiling
[05/06 22:05] Have a very gnight and good week, all
[05/06 22:05] Nighters, everyone!
[05/06 22:05] Can't publish a book of short stories without the stories
[05/06 22:05] See you all next week. BTW, I simply spaced last week, forgot it was a Monday.
[05/06 22:06] Got a crit for next week?
[05/06 22:06] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[05/06 22:06] Bye.

[22/05 20:52] Hello
[22/05 21:02] *** acmfox has joined the chatbox
[22/05 21:02] Hi Dave!
[22/05 21:02] Hi Anneliese
[22/05 21:02] *** camidon has joined the chatbox
[22/05 21:02] Hi CM!
[22/05 21:02] Evening all
[22/05 21:03] Hi Chris
[22/05 21:03] *** Roy Gat has joined the chatbox
[22/05 21:03] Jana posted a bunch of things on the GenE site
[22/05 21:04] Phew
[22/05 21:04] Hi Roy!
[22/05 21:04] Hi Roy
[22/05 21:04] I have to go look!
[22/05 21:04] Hi Roy!
[22/05 21:04] for a minute their I didn't think I was going to find my way in
[22/05 21:05] it's a little tricky finding the chatroom...
[22/05 21:05] Hi, Gang
[22/05 21:05] Glad you brought that up. I always spend several minutes finding thelink to the chat room
[22/05 21:06] OK, guys, I'm getting the hint. Where do you want me to move the chat link to?
[22/05 21:06] My living room?
[22/05 21:06] LOL!
[22/05 21:06] lol
[22/05 21:07] a little closer to the top would help make it easieer to see
[22/05 21:07] -e
[22/05 21:08] It's confusing because of the chat link right near the top of the lefthand sidebar
[22/05 21:08] Since I can't describe the current layout 'm a bit at a losso say asomething
[22/05 21:08] You click on it, but it doesn't take you to the chat plcae
[22/05 21:08] Anyone working on a gen ship story?
[22/05 21:08] We should probably get rid of that other link *Online Chats*
[22/05 21:08] (the link that says "online chats"
[22/05 21:09] Or call it something else.
[22/05 21:09] that link would be ok if it led to the chat
[22/05 21:09] I've been thinking of one, but nothing committed to the word processor yet.
[22/05 21:09] (a GenE story)
[22/05 21:09] Roy, not at the moment. I had my yearly output on the GenE project the month before you joined.
[22/05 21:10] I think the plan that you have to log in first then the link shows up. But that doesn't seem to work.
[22/05 21:10] What does GenE mean?
[22/05 21:10] short for: Generation Evolution
[22/05 21:10] Tother thing that really torques me about the site is that it has horizontal scrolling. YECH
[22/05 21:10] Yes, Dave, that is the plan, because otherwise we seem to get lots of unregistered *guests* crashing the chat page.
[22/05 21:10] I suppose it also is gene, by darned if I never even noticed that! Geez I'm an idiot sometimes
[22/05 21:11] would be nice to have all appropriate links at hand right after login
[22/05 21:11] Gag! Horizontal scrolling????? I didn't mean for that to happen!
[22/05 21:12] I bet I can prod Dave into writing a GenE story, can't I? :smt064
[22/05 21:12] You've got such good ideas, Dave!
[22/05 21:12] Right now I'm logged in but it doesn't show that I'm in.
[22/05 21:12] You might need this :smt079
[22/05 21:13] I see that you're logged in.
[22/05 21:13] Perhaps you need to refresh the page?
[22/05 21:13] I keep waiting for the blue guy to blow up and kill the yellow guy
[22/05 21:13] Prod all you want, I'm just not finding the time or energy to write
[22/05 21:14] I see your name up there, Dave
[22/05 21:14] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[22/05 21:14] Now I get the login menu
[22/05 21:14] hi, sorry I'm late.
[22/05 21:14] HI Elizabeth
[22/05 21:14] Yeah, I can't berate you too much, Dave, I know how it goes. The last thing you want to do after work is rack your brains for story writing.
[22/05 21:14] Hi Elizabeth!
[22/05 21:15] I did no writing today either, but I sure got a lot of work done in my garden
[22/05 21:15] lol Roy!
[22/05 21:15] Roy, did your question imply that you are writing sometihg? Eye-wink
[22/05 21:15] Hi Elizabeth
[22/05 21:15] Didn't write or garden today. But I did take the dog on a nice long walk. Smiling
[22/05 21:15] Everyone is invited to a watermelon feed in August
[22/05 21:15] We're just berating one another for not writing! It's a great group, really.
[22/05 21:15] All I did today was chase around broken shopping carts and bad mySQL installs.
[22/05 21:16] Watermellon! Yum!
[22/05 21:16] My people are going to steal a city for making the Gen ship trip
[22/05 21:16] Am I back?
[22/05 21:16] That sounds interesting.
[22/05 21:16] So, instead of berating...should we talk about your story, CM?
[22/05 21:16] Yes, Dave == I see you
[22/05 21:17] Did you leave, Dave?
[22/05 21:17] I wonder if a criminally-minded group could take over a space station or some floating piece of space junk and convert it...
[22/05 21:17] If I was still tromping around NE, I'd zoom on over. Anything for the hint of free food, even if it means spending more on gas to get there than it would to by the watermelon somewher closer.
[22/05 21:17] sorry about the mySQL. Nobody deserves that.
[22/05 21:17] where are you, Roy?
[22/05 21:17] I loged out of the web page, so the chat said I was not authorized. I logged in and found the chat link then I was back
[22/05 21:18] Anneliese, feel free to talk about my story. I'll listen Smiling
[22/05 21:18] My "criminal" is the CEO of the company that built the city
[22/05 21:18] I love it, Roy.
[22/05 21:18] Takes too long to steal and convert. More resonable to steal a completed or nearly completed ship
[22/05 21:18] I'll talk about your story, too, CM, if you'd like.
[22/05 21:19] To the Cave
[22/05 21:19] Bat Cave ?
[22/05 21:20] Thats one spooky cave.
[22/05 21:20] I still don't like the victims becoming the bad guys
[22/05 21:20] Feel free to chatter away, unless you'd like some intro rambling from mwah.
[22/05 21:20] Neither do I. I can see them attacking the cavers, or grabbing onto the cavers, in a desperate attempt to get out themselves...
[22/05 21:21] Who took the very first victim?
[22/05 21:21] which could be even spookier, in a way.
[22/05 21:21] Why?
[22/05 21:21] I wanted to see the force that is really behind the soul-napping.
[22/05 21:21] Perhaps the cavers hear a little girl crying, or a wounded man, and rush to their aid...
[22/05 21:21] That would match up with the first scene better.
[22/05 21:22] In the room that hides?
[22/05 21:22] and then the little girl or Confederate soldier is so desperate to get out, clinging so hard, that they end up wounding one of the cavers.
[22/05 21:22] Why do you want to see "the force" Anneliese?
[22/05 21:23] Or the cave's victims rush the cavers en masse, trying to force these strangers to show them the way out.
[22/05 21:23] *** Jana has joined the chatbox
[22/05 21:23] or maybe they think they can escape by "possessing" someone?
[22/05 21:23] Roy: "in the room that hides"? --I'm confused, not sure what we're talking about.
[22/05 21:23] It's not that I want to *see* it, so much as experience a bit more of what is behind the mystery.
[22/05 21:23] Maybe they think that they can trade--if a new victim stays in the cave, perhaps they, or one of their friends, can finally get out.
[22/05 21:23] Hi Jana!
[22/05 21:24] That huge room that showed up
[22/05 21:24] hi Jana!
[22/05 21:24] Hi hi hi! Ack I almost forgot again!
[22/05 21:24] Hi Jana
[22/05 21:24] That's not a bad idea, having these "ghosts" want out, not attack them. Hmmm
[22/05 21:24] Hi Jana
[22/05 21:24] never been there before
[22/05 21:24] The one that none of the cavers, even the one who's owned the property for years, has never seen, and can't find on a map.
[22/05 21:24] Yeah, that one
[22/05 21:24] If I'd been stuck in a cave that long, I'd do *anything* to get out.
[22/05 21:25] We're discussing CM's sub.
[22/05 21:25] oops, has ever seen.
[22/05 21:25] Ah okay
[22/05 21:25] I don't think I've seen that one!
[22/05 21:25] or maybe the "victims" become victims because they "taste" like outside.
[22/05 21:26] Wilson's Folly
[22/05 21:26] Jana -- the reason you haven't seen the room is because you aren't a victim
[22/05 21:26] yet
[22/05 21:27] lol!
[22/05 21:27] Wilson's Fear?
[22/05 21:27] Maybe whatever's behind the disappearances wants out too. But it can't figure the outside out.
[22/05 21:27] So it keeps luring in outsiders, trying to unlock its own cage.
[22/05 21:28] Trying to figure out what makes these creatures tick.
[22/05 21:28] Yet?
[22/05 21:28] yet
[22/05 21:28] Why does it deposit trash in the first chamber?
[22/05 21:28] your turn is coming
[22/05 21:28] Okay so is this some sort of suprise ambush ongoing story?
[22/05 21:29] Oh goody
[22/05 21:29] So how would you end this thing? What would be the climax and what would be Rich's last action?
[22/05 21:30] Anneliese, to answer that, the cave is confusing them, that's all at the moment.
[22/05 21:30] Perhaps they missed it, perhaps not--I don't really know--it just clicks in Rich's mind because he found that confederate bill as a kid.
[22/05 21:31] In your mind, is it the cave, or an entity within the cave that is responsible?
[22/05 21:31] What if his final action is to go back into the cave, without telling anybody, determined to make a bargain with the cave?
[22/05 21:31] Caves are generally kind of confusing in general, especially if your claustrophobic to any extent. *holding up hand*
[22/05 21:31] cave
[22/05 21:31] Offer himself in exchange for his buddies?
[22/05 21:31] Maybe Rich goes to the cave with the intent of destroying the evil as the end
[22/05 21:31] That is, if there really is something supernatural about this cave.
[22/05 21:31] Caves are also an entity unto themselves. Makes sense to me to have to strike a bargain with one.
[22/05 21:32] Or perhaps he snaps and goes into the cave because of that.
[22/05 21:32] Jana, fyi,"Wilson's Folly" is about a cave and a real set of "cavers", not the schlock you see on TV or in the movies (as many here know, I'm an avid caver myself, exploring and mapping them)
[22/05 21:33] BTW, I really liked the finding of the Confederate bill, and then the PowerBar wrapper. It's like leaving a trail of crackers for the critter you want to catch.
[22/05 21:33] In RL there is a cave by that name.
[22/05 21:33] Or maybe he figures out that shutting down the cave for 6 months is all that's needed
[22/05 21:33] The cave is "alive" is some sense of the word and causes hardcore cavers to experience something crazy.
[22/05 21:33] I've been quite because I'm trying to figure out the story. Now I realize that it is fantasey, so there are no rules.
[22/05 21:33] then the cycle will be over
[22/05 21:34] Which means, Chris, you can do whatever you want.
[22/05 21:34] What's RL?
[22/05 21:34] Or what if the story ends with Rick desperately trying to bar the cave entrance with anything he can find?
[22/05 21:34] *nodding* Certain caves do have that affect on people
[22/05 21:34] rl means real life
[22/05 21:34] And the jerkwad Ozark sheriff finding Rick and thinking he's gone around the bend?
[22/05 21:34] Yep, Dave, it's fantasy, no rules, but any ideas what you would do?
[22/05 21:35] (jerkwad, great word)
[22/05 21:35] Maybe Rick sends the "Ozark Sheriff" into the cave?
[22/05 21:36] pssst....if it were me, I'd put up a heavy steel door sealing the entrance. And lock it tight...even cement the hinges in. So no one could ever go in there again.
[22/05 21:36] *LOL* jerkwad is a real word here in Missouri
[22/05 21:36] I'd like to set charges and implode the cave.
[22/05 21:36] Yeah, I thought about sealing off the cave, bricks, bars, whatever, but that seemed so expected, so contrived, so I've stayed away from it so far
[22/05 21:36] It's only "bad" for a few months every 60 years, right?
[22/05 21:37] Make a huge sinkhole.
[22/05 21:37] I'm confused by the end, the time gap, the loss of memory
[22/05 21:37] Ah, that's right, Jana, you're in Missouri. That's were Wilson's Folly takes place.
[22/05 21:37] Yes, Roy, that's the idea, like a lifecycle hibernating type of thing. The Cave gets what it wants, then goes to sleep for 60 years
[22/05 21:37] Maybe he tries to smoke it out with firewood and a couple of propane tanks. Something that would get the sheriff after him. Smiling
[22/05 21:37] Oh hey! why not just inside the entrace of it...say about 50 feet in have a deep hole barring the way with a sign "Abandon hope all ye who enter here"
[22/05 21:38] What confuses you, Dave?
[22/05 21:38] Maybe he could find that extra room and blow the ceiling down to turn it into a hole in the ground?
[22/05 21:38] uh oh...we're on the same wavelength.
[22/05 21:38] Eeep sounds like a cave system down near Joplin, reputed to be haunted. no one dares go in without several others along. Groups of 10 at least
[22/05 21:39] I don't think I could bring myself to destroy the cave--just not in my blood--they're too easily destroyed as it is now.
[22/05 21:39] Hasn't that "Abandon hope," etc been used?
[22/05 21:39] They're i the cave, then abreak and he's lost two years, doesn't know who is dead. How did that happen
[22/05 21:39] Exorcise it?
[22/05 21:39] Thusly hole in ground with ominous sign, so once they get past the heavy door it should pretty much indicate going in is NOT a good idea!
[22/05 21:40] Ooooh. I have another idea, but it's kind of nasty.
[22/05 21:40] It sounds to me that folks what Rich to have SOME kind of last act against the cave, some small victory.
[22/05 21:40] Exorcise a cave? *giggle* no amount of holy water and sage bundle could cover that much ground!
[22/05 21:40] Send a priest in with a bucket of holy water
[22/05 21:40] Maybe Rick decides to bring the rest of his caving buddies along, to get the cave to, maybe, sleep a little longer.
[22/05 21:40] Hmm, Dave, never meant two years to pass, only two days.
[22/05 21:40] Biiiiig bucket of holy water!
[22/05 21:40] I think there has to be some reason that Rick makes it out, something that separates him from his buds.
[22/05 21:41] And they foil him at the last minute, deciding that he's gone completely nuts.
[22/05 21:41] Have Rich buy a construction company, and whenever he has unused concrete he dums it in the cave.
[22/05 21:41] A priest in kneepads? (clamping my tongue shut on that one)
[22/05 21:41] *giggle*
[22/05 21:41] He's got to find some way to propitiate the cave.
[22/05 21:41] Sealing it up tight would force it to sleep
[22/05 21:41] or give everyone a water pistol full of holy water so they can protect themselves
[22/05 21:41] lol!
[22/05 21:42] I do want Rick to have some small victory. Even a Pyrrhic one.
[22/05 21:42] There are Native American ways to ask for forgiveness. Acknowledge that it's alive and vow to protect it's space by sealing it up.
[22/05 21:42] As I said, I was confused. I'll have to read it again carefully.
[22/05 21:42] :smt043
[22/05 21:43] I was confused also. I couldn't reconcile the second rescue. Did it happen or not?
[22/05 21:43] Hmmm. I like the idea of some kind of Native American way to ask for forgiveness.
[22/05 21:44] Dave, don't spend too much time--I'm definately changing the whole weird ending. There will be no weird time transitions. People won't randomly disappear or be dead--that's too confusing I've found and it takes away from the confusion inside the cave which is the most important.
[22/05 21:44] *jumping up and down* I know of several native methods and pagan methods
[22/05 21:44] Or some way to release the spirits trapped within--including the one that lured the humans in the first place.
[22/05 21:44] The cave needs to ask for forgiveness -- IMHO
[22/05 21:44] If the hero asks for forgiveness of all those that violated it's space, maybe it would give him the ones still alive and release the trapped spirits
[22/05 21:44] Anneliese, that was partly the idea. In my mind, of course the second rescue happened. I'm on Rich's side, the all others are not.
[22/05 21:45] I do like the idea of Rick questioning his own sanity, especially in the mystery room as his friends are disappearing.
[22/05 21:45] No no no....the cave was just defending itself
[22/05 21:45] defending itself against what?
[22/05 21:46] visitors?
[22/05 21:46] Against those that violated it's space
[22/05 21:46] One should always ask for permission from the cave, to enter within. Not many think of that
[22/05 21:46] Hmm.. THat might work. Something like Rich decides not to go in there again, thus losing his caving legs,
[22/05 21:46] It seemed to me that the second rescue should have occurred. I'm not sure making it seem otherwise is necessary.
[22/05 21:46] because he feels the cave was defening itself? Hmmm.
[22/05 21:47] Exactly
[22/05 21:47] Jana -- you right and I bet very few people ask permission of a tree before walking under it
[22/05 21:47] I think Rick losing his ability to cave is fitting. Part of the sacrifice necessary.
[22/05 21:47] I agree, Anneliese. Otherwise, I've created too much confusing. The cave and setting need to create the mystery and confusion, not strange time jumps or questioning whether an event happened.
[22/05 21:47] Fitting sacrifice
[22/05 21:47] Or part of what he left behind in the mystery room.
[22/05 21:47] Just coming to the realization that caves (all of them) are themselves spiritual entities, could be a pretty shocking realization.
[22/05 21:47] Definately agree, Elizabeth.
[22/05 21:48] Now you got it
[22/05 21:48] Do we have a story to crit for next week?
[22/05 21:48] He gets his friends out, but he can no longer bring himself to go into a cave again.
[22/05 21:49] Roy I always ask trees permission or at least apologize
[22/05 21:49] Which would be a considerable sacrifice for him. All of his social network is related to caving.
[22/05 21:49] Jana -- You are one rare individual
[22/05 21:49] I agree...
[22/05 21:49] Or his friends become part of that magnificant flow stone.
[22/05 21:50] Perhaps he loses his will to go caving, but in return he gains the desire to protect the delicate ecological structure of caves by advocating people not going into them
[22/05 21:50] but how would Rich come to that decision? How would he realize his "violation" is part of the cause of this?
[22/05 21:50] *smile* I'm something....
[22/05 21:50] And every time he passes Wilson's Folly, he's struck by two things: an overpowering fear and the devout wish that the cave be satisfied, that it take no more victims.
[22/05 21:50] What good is a cave if you can't spelunk it?
[22/05 21:50] An epiphany that the cave shows him in vivid pictures
[22/05 21:50] Maybe it's a bargain that he strikes with the cave in order to get his friends out.
[22/05 21:50] However, this takes away from the cave being just evil. Nothing but a consciousness of evil dedicated to itself.
[22/05 21:51] Roy, you sound like one of us!
[22/05 21:51] How would you feel if after millions of years on working on gorgeous structures and nurturing cave life...some human comes along and goes tearing through you?
[22/05 21:52] I think of the cave in this draft as more of a predator...it lies dormant, then goes looking for food.
[22/05 21:52] I can't see turning a killer and soul eater into a good guy
[22/05 21:52] It's clever enough to lure these little creatures in and trap them.
[22/05 21:52] Maybe the cave rejects him. He did something as a boy and he is not worthy of being assimilated by the cave. Different story but interesting
[22/05 21:52] Some caves want to show off their creations... others are more interested in gaining other *things*
[22/05 21:52] Good caves, bad caves
[22/05 21:52] No but the man can at least show some respect for it.
[22/05 21:52] You can't convert a predator...you can only learn to avoid it.
[22/05 21:52] Sometimes good caves turn bad when they're exploited
[22/05 21:53] Show it sufficient respect that it doesn't turn on you.
[22/05 21:53] You just have to keep the predator fed.
[22/05 21:53] Or feed your friends to it before you visit
[22/05 21:53] lol roy!
[22/05 21:53] I think the notion that this cave is a predator is a good one to exploit.
[22/05 21:53] There are two types of people who go undergound: "spelunkers" are considered inexperienced lugheads who destroy the fragile environment and go "spelunk" when they fall down a pit. "Cavers" tend to be concerened with protecting the resource, leave nothing but footprints, survey, map, document species, but they don't go into a cave without a reason.
[22/05 21:53] Hey there's areas of forests etc that I will studiously avoid as it feels like a predator. Show respect by not trespassing on their territory and everything is cool
[22/05 21:53] would a jerkwad Ozark sheriff be sufficient chow for the cave? Or would he give it indigestion?
[22/05 21:53] some terminology for you. (I'm done with that now)
[22/05 21:54] Yes, elizabeth, going back to something earlier, a predator, that's what I had in mind
[22/05 21:54] *LOL* Maybe that jerkwad is what the cave wants. Could be a descendent of those who first violated its space
[22/05 21:54] My impression was that these cavers are doing their best to protect their environment.
[22/05 21:54] EH == let's try it and find out
[22/05 21:55] jerkwad Sherif, very sterotypical
[22/05 21:55] Let the Sheriff go "spelunk" and the cave settles down
[22/05 21:55] If the cave's a predator, the question for Rick is, how does he keep it from feeding on his friends? Or other innocent people?
[22/05 21:55] We have a jerkwad deputy in Otoe county
[22/05 21:55] Unfortunately not all caves would see it as the people trying to protect it. If humans would just show respect it would be cool
[22/05 21:56] Of course, if Rich *trades* the sheriff for his buds, that would leave him feeling a bit conflicted after it all, too.
[22/05 21:56] Hmm, not a bad idea. I've easily set-up a means to "sacrifice" the sheriif".. Just bring him along in the cave with Rich et all in that final scene--he does something stupid and destructive, and whamo, he's the cave food
[22/05 21:56] Easy....seal it up...with the sign warning them in a subtle way what might happen to them if they trespass
[22/05 21:56] waves his gun and threatens kids while breaking up parties
[22/05 21:56] cave fodder....hey new term!
[22/05 21:57] What kind of warnings would you post that could keep immortal teens away?
[22/05 21:57] We have an entire department of jerkwads for deputies here in Cass County. Sheriff is the same way
[22/05 21:57] cave fodder is what we call gungho but inexperienced cavers
[22/05 21:57] "Abandon hope all ye who enter here"
[22/05 21:57] lol!
[22/05 21:57] And a cave with this kind of hunger is going to find another entrance.
[22/05 21:57] Lasciate agni speranza, voi che catrate.
[22/05 21:57] ENter here and your sex organs fall off.
[22/05 21:57] Jana, Cass county Nebraska?
[22/05 21:57] it chews you up and spits you out, leaving you aching and bruised for days
[22/05 21:57] Can I be cave fodder?
[22/05 21:58] Tempted to put that as the no trespassing sign for my property
[22/05 21:58] Cass County, Missouri.
[22/05 21:58] True, most teenagers think they're bulletproof.
[22/05 21:58] How about cave mulch?
[22/05 21:58] I'm in Nebraska
[22/05 21:58] Then the hero should make it his quest to find all entrances and seal them up
[22/05 21:59] Yeah, I think I could now see Rich seeling off access to the cave, and the rest of the cavers are pissed! They don't understand why he is doing it.,
[22/05 21:59] Cave mulch... I like that!
[22/05 21:59] Where is Cass county Mo?
[22/05 21:59] South of Jackson County, Missouri
[22/05 21:59] Next county actually
[22/05 21:59] Helps me not
[22/05 21:59] Anneliese, please make sure to save this chat as usual. It's giving me some good ideas
[22/05 21:59] cave mulch....chomp chomp chomp...chew....burp
[22/05 22:00] East or West?
[22/05 22:00] Another ending note: since this feeding cycle is 60 years, Rich will be dead and gone by the next one... Can he do anything to protect?
[22/05 22:00] Okay Roy....do you know where Kansas City is?
[22/05 22:00] Will do, CM.
[22/05 22:00] Do we have a story for next week?
[22/05 22:00] Pass the legacy on to a faithful person....passing the keys so to speak
[22/05 22:00] That I know -- 200 miles from here
[22/05 22:01] Sort of like the monks on Fifth Element.
[22/05 22:01] I don't think so, Roy. I keep meaning to send Elizabeth more Chrysalis chapters, but I've been distracted.
[22/05 22:01] Anneliese, my thought is: there's not much Rich can do. Perhaps that's part of the unresolved mystery, Rich coming to terms with the fact he can't change things after he's gone.
[22/05 22:01] Well Cass County is the next county down from KC, which is in Jackson County
[22/05 22:01] Hey I like that ending!
[22/05 22:01] got it
[22/05 22:02] Rich can realize that life goes full circle, and someone else will have to learn the secret and continue his legacy of protecting
[22/05 22:02] I live in redneck country
[22/05 22:02] I'll have to play with it. This is good though. I've got some solid leads to fix the ending--I did not have that after the last time I submitted this way back when so little of the ending got changed.
[22/05 22:02] Except to try and convince some of his fellow cavers that Wilson's Folly is best left alone.
[22/05 22:03] Which might lead some of them to question his judgment. Wonder if he lost it in the cave and didn't quite recover.
[22/05 22:03] Which is sort of what those monks did on the movie Fifth Element. They protected that distant temple way out in the desert....letting people know it was best left alone
[22/05 22:03] I keep thrashing on my Gen E story, but can't get the friggin' thing to move.
[22/05 22:03] Thanks for all the feedback.
[22/05 22:03] Happy to help
[22/05 22:04] A lively discussion tonight!
[22/05 22:04] Elizabeth, maybe you need to write it while trapped in an asteroid floating through space..
[22/05 22:04] Isn't Gen E about the ship?
[22/05 22:04] you know, write about what you know
[22/05 22:04] EH -- I should have mine done next week -- maybe it will help you
[22/05 22:05] Roy, if the queue's empty and you've got something in a little bit, I'd say send it along, if that's okay with everyone else.
[22/05 22:05] I'm now actively working on Chapter 18 of my book and not happy with the opening paragraphs so I know how you feel
[22/05 22:05] Your time and feedback has been worth many, many critiques.
[22/05 22:05] I have a harvest story that could stand a crit session
[22/05 22:06] Anneliese, any comments on the purge, or new members?
[22/05 22:06] I need to be trapped somewhere with no phones, no e-mail, and full-time child care. Then I might have a shot.
[22/05 22:06] Dave, good luck with work. Save a little time for yourself to write. Please?
[22/05 22:06] Non lately.
[22/05 22:06] if you've got a story, Roy, send it!
[22/05 22:07] That's called Haevean, Elizabeth, or maybe Hell. Hmmm..
[22/05 22:07] will do
[22/05 22:07] Or maybe Wilson's Folly...
[22/05 22:07] Turn off the phones for an hour a day, turn off the computer for that hour....write after the kids are in bed
[22/05 22:07] Thanks again, everyone, much appreciated. Have a good evening and week.
[22/05 22:07] send it to Annaliese?
[22/05 22:07] You're welcome!
[22/05 22:08] Nighters everyone. Great chat tonight!
[22/05 22:08] I'm glad I actually got here in almost time
[22/05 22:08] yeah, great chat! Good night everybody!
[22/05 22:08] G'Night
[22/05 22:08] Night
[22/05 22:08] Send subs to Elizabeth.
[22/05 22:08] Bye
[22/05 22:09] You'll get into the rhythm, Jana! Smiling
[22/05 22:09] *** camidon has left the chatbox
[22/05 22:09] *grin*
[22/05 22:09] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[22/05 22:09] Well I'm off to take dogs outside, and get to my email.
[22/05 22:09] Keep writing!

[17/04 20:59] I looked at some of the gen stuff from 04 since I'd forgotten about most of it
[17/04 20:59] hi
[17/04 20:59] Hi Anneliese
[17/04 20:59] Evening, Anneliese
[17/04 21:00] That's cool, Bob. That's probably more than most have done in a long time
[17/04 21:01] Yeah but it's still a blur. I'm not sure what was actually decided. Does anyone recall?
[17/04 21:01] I have to admit that I haven't looked at it too much since moving it to the new site.
[17/04 21:02] Dave, you see the acrtivity on the post boards, from the new joinee, Boris?
[17/04 21:02] I was just looking at that before the chat.
[17/04 21:02] where is Boris? Is he coming?
[17/04 21:02] Um, as I recall, there really was no decisions. I got busy, it kind of went into hibernation.
[17/04 21:02] Got siodetracked looking at some of the links he posted.
[17/04 21:03] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[17/04 21:03] hi there!
[17/04 21:03] Hmm, generally I think we decided that the spacecraft was an asteroid.
[17/04 21:03] what did you think of them?
[17/04 21:03] HI Elizabeth
[17/04 21:03] hi
[17/04 21:03] Hi Elizabeth!
[17/04 21:03] Evening, Elizabeth.
[17/04 21:03] is the power source also part of the asteroid?
[17/04 21:04] Also, no AI
[17/04 21:04] Bob, that was never specifically decidied
[17/04 21:04] I had suggested a power source based on a mini black hole
[17/04 21:04] no AI no FTL
[17/04 21:04] Yes, no FTL, that's an important one.
[17/04 21:04] isn't a black hole a bit hard to control?
[17/04 21:05] why is no FTL so important?
[17/04 21:05] I remember that, Dave. Also stuff about planetary slingshots.
[17/04 21:05] Just a matter of technology
[17/04 21:05] ok
[17/04 21:05] *** EHardage has left the chatbox
[17/04 21:06] IMO, Bob, if a ship can fly faster than the speed of light, it creates a whole lot of time issues...
[17/04 21:06] No FTL because those with FTL get to the destination before those without
[17/04 21:06] ok
[17/04 21:06] *** EHardage has joined the chatbox
[17/04 21:06] Did we really say no AI?
[17/04 21:06] The point of GenE is generation evolution--to evolve over extended periods of space travel to fit the specific requirements of a new home world.
[17/04 21:06] Took a quick look at the GenE discussion. Some interesting stuff.
[17/04 21:07] I'm pretty sure, Dave. At least at the beginning, would have to scour the wiki stuff to verify though.
[17/04 21:08] That's nice, Elizabeth. Interesting is better than boring! :smt110
[17/04 21:08] Or perhaps the evolution takes a different direction than was planned--space radiation and such. Smiling
[17/04 21:08] I don't see a real resolution to the AI issue.
[17/04 21:09] I think you need some AI. It could be rudimentary
[17/04 21:09] I suspect that by the time you had enough technology to outfit and fly one of these ships, you'd have computing power way beyond our present capacities.
[17/04 21:10] In looking at the WIki, I should update stuff as I've started trying to write some stuff.
[17/04 21:10] Who knows what form it might take.
[17/04 21:10] maybe the AI evolution conflicts with human evolution
[17/04 21:10] Or you could outfit crew members with their own AI and create a hive mind.
[17/04 21:10] I wonder if the decision should be AI, per se, or how much machines/computers control the destiny of the ship?
[17/04 21:10] True, but where does predicting AI cross the line between science fiction and fantasy? Hmmm.. Made it doesn't.
[17/04 21:11] what if the AI is alien
[17/04 21:11] I'm not exactly again AI, but the space ship AI/computer is rather cliche. Anyone want to try and write a story including an AI of some form and see what happens.
[17/04 21:12] (that should be against, not again)
[17/04 21:12] Perhaps by the time the GenE ships are built the human/AI divide has been bridged.
[17/04 21:12] I'm not a fan of AI, so I'd have a problem writing that story, I guess.
[17/04 21:12] Or the entire ship is built of "smart" materials.
[17/04 21:12] so the humans merge with the ship? Or is that too cliche?
[17/04 21:13] It's a degree of interface. If you look at how our interactions with computers have changed since the 1940s,
[17/04 21:13] I'm really all about: "write a story and see what happens". If it breaks are rules so what? It just won't be included in a larger volume that may or (may never) come of this.
[17/04 21:13] If you consider that the ship is the AI, I could probably go with that.
[17/04 21:13] how both the machines and the people have adapted to the interface...
[17/04 21:13] There are four catagories of intelligence: Pure biological, pure mechanical, mechanical downloaded to bio forms and boi inteligence uploaded to hardware.
[17/04 21:14] That might ring of "Hal", however.
[17/04 21:14] so
[17/04 21:14] But one also has to think about how far technologies have gone. Some have advanced far beyond belief--places, space travel, computers, other's have not evolved from ther origins--like the wheel.
[17/04 21:15] I'm thinking that the colonists might be as comfortable talking, or switching biofeedback levers, or whatever interface they come up with, as we are with keyboards and mice.
[17/04 21:15] I don't like Hal plots either.
[17/04 21:15] I agree with that, Elizabeth.
[17/04 21:15] To me, extrapolating from my computer experiences, the danger isn't of a malevolent AI so much as a misprogrammed one.
[17/04 21:16] or one that gets zapped by radiation
[17/04 21:16] I do, think, however, for a multi-millenia project to occur, there has to be some machine intelligence to keep the human population to the mission.
[17/04 21:16] Or one which has, over time, become so complex, such a mishmash of technologies and protocols, that nobody really knows for sure how it works.
[17/04 21:16] that sure does sound like HAL
[17/04 21:16] I haven't been able to come up with a new AI plot, just use the AI as a character.
[17/04 21:16] In my first story attempts, I added neural net connections, some implanted into the body, others outside the body in the form of glasses or gadgets who don't wish to alter their bodies. Admittedly, this is the first whack.
[17/04 21:17] clark used a brain cap in 3001 the same idea as in spock's brain
[17/04 21:17] Or, after long enough, people will no longer be familiar with the protocols used in the original programming.
[17/04 21:17] I don't see why they wouldn't know how it works, as lons as the ship is big enough to train a range of scientists and engineers. In my mind, the ship is plenty big enough.
[17/04 21:18] I'm more inclined to use psychic connections... I don't think humans will have to have mechanical interfaces.
[17/04 21:18] They'll have built subroutines on top of subroutines and increasingly "friendly" interfaces between them.
[17/04 21:18] psychic connections are electro magnetic, aren't they?
[17/04 21:18] They could be.
[17/04 21:18] Heaven help the programmer who has to figure out the core program. Smiling
[17/04 21:18] LOL!
[17/04 21:19] The programmer ia an AI
[17/04 21:19] I love these ideas,even if I don't agree with everything. Write some stories people!
[17/04 21:19] works 4 me
[17/04 21:19] I feel the germ of a tale beginning to fester... Laughing out loud
[17/04 21:19] Could someone explain "psychic connection"?
[17/04 21:20] (need a better smiley, though)
[17/04 21:20] electro magnetic waves
[17/04 21:20] There's already software out there that uses a joystick manipulated by mouth, or eye movements, to control a computer.
[17/04 21:20] There are theories being developed that relate psychic phenomena to quantum mechanics.
[17/04 21:21] You could ostensibly use certain brain waves, or facial movements, as an interface.
[17/04 21:21] let's not get so lost in theory that we lose story
[17/04 21:21] But relating to eye or mouth movement is still based on movement, not brave waves.
[17/04 21:21] Absolutely, Bob!
[17/04 21:22] There are interfaces for amputees that read nerve impulses
[17/04 21:22] The problem a computer would have, I think, would be syncing with the proper time/space.
[17/04 21:22] (I'm not being clear here...if I can get my thoughts together on this, I'll add it to the wiki)
[17/04 21:23] I don't understand that Anneliese
[17/04 21:23] If one is saying, they envision being able to manipulate obects by only "thought" or "brain waves" without some kind of interface, that doesn't fly.--Yes, Davem but that's still based on a physical connection to those nerves
[17/04 21:23] neither do I
[17/04 21:23] In this case, I may just not be imaginative enough.
[17/04 21:24] Not physical, picked up by sensors on the skin.
[17/04 21:24] But this is a minor point. If someone writes a damn good story with psychic connections, I'm really not going to complain! Smiling
[17/04 21:24] Psychic information comes from a non-localized space. Psychic protocols train the observer to be able to focus on the desired time/space information.
[17/04 21:25] But that sensor is still connected to the skin.
[17/04 21:25] As I said, I need more time to express this clearly. ...and I ain't happening tonight.
[17/04 21:25] which is connected to the body.
[17/04 21:25] Perhaps, with enough biofeedback or meditation training, a user could focus on images or commands for the computer.
[17/04 21:25] it need not be. It only needs to be close to the skin
[17/04 21:25] Maybe touching, but in a few years it can be remote. Think of PET scans
[17/04 21:25] That's okay, Anneliese, that's what the WIKI site is for! Create a thread! Please. I'm interested. It's clearly not something i've thought about,
[17/04 21:26] Generate brainwaves at a set frequency.
[17/04 21:26] does any of this remind you of forbidden planet
[17/04 21:26] Biofeedback is a pretty simple interface, easy to train.
[17/04 21:26] Not until you mentioned it.
[17/04 21:27] Just to jump back to the overarching idea behind this GenE: What I love about this basic premise is that it can go a million directions...
[17/04 21:27] I encourage stories to do so, and I don't think any rules we "set" are unbreakable...
[17/04 21:28] Anyone can build their own ship, so whatever you want, just write it.
[17/04 21:28] I suspect that after a few stories are created, a defacto universe will come into being.
[17/04 21:28] However, ideally, I would like to create some kind of linear anthology that starts from the beginning of the GenE world, i.e. leaving Earth, and follow it through until this ship reaches its desination planet.
[17/04 21:28] We should all commit to producing something.
[17/04 21:29] In this anthology, stories would have to follow these basic rules we create about no FTL, etc.
[17/04 21:29] I agree, Dave.
[17/04 21:29] Stories that don't fit this linear anthology are still perfectly good stories.
[17/04 21:29] I agree Anneliese.
[17/04 21:30] wait. Is it one ship, many ships or what?
[17/04 21:30] I don't think we decided that, Bob.
[17/04 21:30] Who would like me to agree with them next? :smt038
[17/04 21:30] LOL!
[17/04 21:30] i do i do
[17/04 21:30] I think putting all the stories in one ship would require a referee so that the storiy lies don't conflict.
[17/04 21:31] Shouls be story lines, but lies works too.
[17/04 21:31] IMO, bob, this "anthology" will have "one ship". But again, stories of different ships are inevitable. I don't think just one ship would ever be sent, if people could make it work.
[17/04 21:31] so it's a group of ships, not a fleet
[17/04 21:31] Exactly, Dave.
[17/04 21:31] I think that we should all create our own ships to begin with. There could be cross-over later on.
[17/04 21:32] Hmmm.. Anneliese, that very well may be a good idea.
[17/04 21:32] I agree w/Anneliese.
[17/04 21:32] That would be much easier to run, especially at the beginnig.
[17/04 21:32] yeah. So do I
[17/04 21:32] It would take considerable refereeing to keep the story line for a single GenE ship straight.
[17/04 21:32] We all had different reasons for creating the ships in the first place...
[17/04 21:32] Perhaps a first exercise would be to create a story/brief outline...
[17/04 21:33] Well, great, we reached some kind of consensus.
[17/04 21:33] of the motivations and groups involved with launching the project.
[17/04 21:33] pirates?
[17/04 21:33] Therefore, all that needs to be created are the "launching" parameters...
[17/04 21:33] Consensus! Wooohooo :smt043
[17/04 21:33] Once a ship is in space, a writer can do anything they see fit--ai, aliens, coups, etc
[17/04 21:34] You could have several reasons for launching: scientific exploration, looking for God, refugees who want to get as far away from Earth as possible, so on...
[17/04 21:34] So, for example, at the launching time, in the near future, a hundred and fifty years or so, there's no AI yet, etc. Those kinds of things. That make any sense?
[17/04 21:34] Not all ships are going to make it. The stories about failures might be very interesting.
[17/04 21:34] corporate greed
[17/04 21:35] Oh, oh, oh! Now I agree with Elizabeth!
[17/04 21:35] failure always seems more interesting
[17/04 21:35] A government's desire to get rid of all of its "undesirables" at one go.
[17/04 21:35] And with Anneliese!
[17/04 21:35] What were the reasons for the settlement/exploration of the Americas? All of those
[17/04 21:35] Propectors hoping to strike it rich in space.
[17/04 21:36] OK, undesireables was Austraila
[17/04 21:36] So, the reasons for a ship launch can be varied. (must make sure to save this chat so we can use it to update wiki site!)
[17/04 21:36] prospectors would require small ships. no?
[17/04 21:36] A lot of the early settlers of the U.S. came from debtor's prisons in England.
[17/04 21:36] America had penal colonies also.
[17/04 21:36] Sure.
[17/04 21:37] Depends on what kind of mining they hoped to do, Bob.
[17/04 21:37] Could be anything from metals to noble gases.
[17/04 21:38] Prospectors are corporate-backed scouts.
[17/04 21:38] Compounds that wouldn't survive very long on Earth.
[17/04 21:38] So, I think we'll create, or try to create a basic introductory Wiki page that sets the basic "unbreakable" rules about the general society before "lift off" That sound okay? For example:
[17/04 21:38] 1) Evolution of ship passengers is a must. 2) No FTl. etc, etc,
[17/04 21:38] Utopian types hoping to create their ideal society and tailor the people in it accrodingly.
[17/04 21:38] Limits on communication w/Earth?
[17/04 21:39] After that, anything can fly?
[17/04 21:39] I agree with CM
[17/04 21:39] yes
[17/04 21:39] artificial gravity?
[17/04 21:39] Elizabeth, I think that is limited by distance.
[17/04 21:39] Utopian types might be all about the journey, and never actually interested in landing anywhere.
[17/04 21:40] Weren't our asteroids massive enough to create some gravity?
[17/04 21:40] The father you go, the longer the communication time. In the beginning, where the ground rules apply, I say of course, after the ship leaves the solar system, anything can happen.
[17/04 21:41] Probably, but I don't think it's a significant gravity field.
[17/04 21:41] Can't create gravity internally, and AG had been thought impossible by current physics. But there have been some new developments.
[17/04 21:41] After a certain point in time, no matter what the distance, our travelers will have so little in common with Earth that communication will be pointless.
[17/04 21:41] I can't think of too many asteroids, even the larger ones like Ceres, that produce a significant gravity field--but I could be wrong.
[17/04 21:41] then don't we have bone loss issues?
[17/04 21:41] Just spin the asteroid.
[17/04 21:42] That would be part of the evolution, I suspect. The humans would either 1) adapt to a low-g existence or 2) have to tweak their ship considerably to get the environment that will facilitiate their evolution.
[17/04 21:42] would there be enough time for them to evolve
[17/04 21:43] No teleportation, ansibles, or anything that allows the crew to break the laws of relativistic physics.
[17/04 21:43] They might be able to exploit some quantum foibles, but those have to be quantum--random and unpredictable.
[17/04 21:43] I agree with Dave. I assumed spinning the asteroid.
[17/04 21:43] what's an ansible?
[17/04 21:43] I agree with Elizabeth.
[17/04 21:43] I've had it up to here with God-like computers that can fling people through spacetime without losing an eyelash.
[17/04 21:44] Ansible: instantaneous communication device, even across vast interstellar distances.
[17/04 21:44] oh
[17/04 21:44] I don't want one of those either
[17/04 21:44] Here's a popular scifi trope--cold sleep? Why don't people just go to sleep for two million years and wake up at their new planet?
[17/04 21:45] I don't want any godish computers
[17/04 21:45] Anneliese, if they become so different that comms are unreasonable why are we expecting to hear from ET's?
[17/04 21:45] I don't like the cold sleep idea at all, even if possible--it destroys the entire concept around using the distance and time it takes to cross space to evolve to fit a destination.
[17/04 21:45] corpcycles...I don't know about that
[17/04 21:46] Good question, Dave.
[17/04 21:46] Dave has a point.
[17/04 21:46] There are a whole lot of questions like cold sleep, terraform the destination that we just have to say no to for some made up reason.
[17/04 21:47] There's a story idea--Have Earth receive a strange transmission, ala contact, only to decipher it's one of their own generation ships in the future
[17/04 21:47] The problem is that somebody's gotta do maintenance, steer the ship, make sure to defrost the other crew members, etc....
[17/04 21:47] I believe my point had more to do with the fact that as a species, the travelers won't have much in common with their earth-bound ancestors.
[17/04 21:47] I like that answer, Dave.
[17/04 21:47] Perhaps cryogenics aren't sufficiently developed at the point in time when our GenE ships take off.
[17/04 21:48] And do you really think there is a technology to preserve organic matter for 2 million years?
[17/04 21:48] need some frog genes
[17/04 21:48] The point of the GenE ship is to evolve to survive at the destination.
[17/04 21:48] genetically engineer treavelers with amphibian genes so their cells won't freeze
[17/04 21:48] Yes, someone has to do it, and if they don't, we're relying on computers to do it for us--which I don't like, and I think is shaky in the long run. If we're talking thousands of years, or millions of years--when the parts breakdown, bye bye humans.
[17/04 21:48] Good point. Even if the crewsicles arrive at their new world, and are successfully thawed, they're completely unprepared.
[17/04 21:49] I can see cold naps, but not an extended sleep.
[17/04 21:49] Yay! I'm glad we're finding easy rationalization for some of these standard scifi tropes.
[17/04 21:50] And keeping people in that state would require a great deal of energy. Energy that could be put to better use.
[17/04 21:51] It's cold sleep because the occupants are frozen, Cold i cheap in space
[17/04 21:52] Okay, so looking at a basic starting block for our ships here are some of the definite "nos" Again, I envision an introductory WIKI page with a list of these basic parameters with links for explanations behind them..
[17/04 21:53] good
[17/04 21:54] :smt023
[17/04 21:54] (no particular order) 1) No Cold Sleep, 2) No Terraforming, 3) No FTL, 4) No grossly breaking standard physics laws) 5) No AI. 6) No alien contact Others? Some of these only apply at the very beginning, and then can be altered by writers once there ships leave the solar system
[17/04 21:54] Cold is cheap, yes. Controlled cold? Might be harder to manage.
[17/04 21:55] no aliens? Yelp
[17/04 21:55] There'd be a fine line between optimum cold sleep and permanent tissue damage.
[17/04 21:55] Arguments?
[17/04 21:55] THoughts?
[17/04 21:55] I like it!
[17/04 21:55] I want aliens
[17/04 21:55] No alien contact at the beginning. Once you're a few thousand light-years along, aliens might just be out there.
[17/04 21:56] Good start, CM.
[17/04 21:56] Bob, only in the very beginning, i.e, as the ships leave Earth. Once in the voids of space, take your ships and evolve them as you see fit. Perhaps we'll meet the Moose people again?
[17/04 21:56] ok
[17/04 21:56] I would say no AI's smarter than humans. It is up to the author to come up with the reason why.
[17/04 21:56] Nothing like a man with demands! Smiling
[17/04 21:57] Sounds reasonable, Dave.
[17/04 21:57] Physical alien contact to radio messages
[17/04 21:57] I'm thinking no Terminator Ai, No Hal, Ai. It can "think", But not "think there for I am"
[17/04 21:57] I ment physical contact or radio contact?
[17/04 21:57] The computer cannot tweak space-time, and you cannot resolve a mechanical crisis by reversing polarity.
[17/04 21:58] LOL!
[17/04 21:58] Can I reverse the phase?
[17/04 21:58] Explain "resolving crisis by reversing polarity"! Is that Star Trek jargon?
[17/04 21:58] scotty's dead
[17/04 21:58] You do know the magnetic polls of Earth shift every few thousand years.
[17/04 21:58] Actually, it's Buck Rogers jargon, isn't it?
[17/04 21:59] It is used in Young Franekstein
[17/04 21:59] What's a couple a thousand years in a generation ship? Reverse them poles!
[17/04 22:00] Reversing the polarity is a cliche from the early days of SF.
[17/04 22:00] Elizabeth, explain "no tweaking space-time". I'm not compltely clear.
[17/04 22:00] time travel?
[17/04 22:01] Bob, are you answering "tweaking space time?
[17/04 22:01] Time travel, not initially, but once in the voids of space, I suppose so
[17/04 22:01] sort of. I'm suggesting no time travel
[17/04 22:01] Time travel violate our no FTL rule
[17/04 22:01] unless that violates "space time"
[17/04 22:02] I've always hated time travel--never could fully wrap my brain around it.
[17/04 22:02] I'm thinking of Jane in the Ender series. By the fourth book she's God-like.
[17/04 22:02] I have: "No FTL" but only a beginning. Do we believe, this rule should apply through all phases of GenE?
[17/04 22:02] She sends people across vast distances just by thinking about it, and never makes a mistake...and then she chucks it all and becomes human so she can become a mommy. Bleargh.
[17/04 22:03] I tink of time travel like Niven - it's fantasy
[17/04 22:03] for all writer creations?
[17/04 22:03] me two, Dave.
[17/04 22:03] it's fact. One direction. One speed.
[17/04 22:03] oops, too
[17/04 22:03] If you're several light-years away from your destination, you can't get there unless you find some way to make a stable wormhole.
[17/04 22:03] That old carrer or family choice.
[17/04 22:03] I think FTL may be explored. Ultimately, however, most of our ships would reject it as not serving their needs.
[17/04 22:04] And keep yourselves from being picked apart molecule by molecule.
[17/04 22:05] Baby sitting a four year old once a week, I would thnk teleportation would be a desired trait.
[17/04 22:05] So, definitely no FTL in beginning--but after tha, let author's play, like with AI potential, and aliens.
[17/04 22:06] Any other definite No's at beginning at least, that i did not mention that anyone can think of?
[17/04 22:06] None here.
[17/04 22:07] (as we wrap this up for the evening?) My gut tells me we should do this again, and soon. This created a nice and productive chat.
[17/04 22:07] I think we've got a good starting list. Good work, everyone!
[17/04 22:07] It was more active than most. Or maybe I'm just more awake todaay.
[17/04 22:08] I agree. A topic for another chat is whether we know at the outset what will be the destination.
[17/04 22:08] Anneliese, Elizabeth, perhaps you can look at the schedule and see when another chat like this might work best, depending on submissions.
[17/04 22:08] Or the destination of each ship is a government secret
[17/04 22:09] Only the government-sponsored ships Smiling
[17/04 22:09] I'll try and reinvest time in Wiki to set up these introductory definite decisions with explanation. Then we can peruse them and make sure everything is kosher at a future chat.
[17/04 22:09] I'll post this chat log in the forum.
[17/04 22:10] Great, Anneliese, Thanks. Any other pressing thoughts?
[17/04 22:10] Sounds good. Good night, everybody, and good chat!

[03/04 20:45] *** acmfox has left the chatbox*** DaveK has left the chatbox
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[03/04 20:59] Evening, Dave
[03/04 21:00] *** acmfox has joined the chatbox
[03/04 21:00] Hi Dave!
[03/04 21:00] Hi CM!
[03/04 21:00] Evening, Anneliese
[03/04 21:01] Dave is :smt015
[03/04 21:01] Did you have a good week?
[03/04 21:01] Hi guys, I was just reading the monthy update
[03/04 21:01] LOL! I like that one Laughing out loud
[03/04 21:02] I already got an email from Juanita.
[03/04 21:03] HI Dave!
[03/04 21:03] Nothing to complain about
[03/04 21:03] Nice update, Anneliese. Yay, at least there was A response.
[03/04 21:03] Hi Chris, how is the business going
[03/04 21:03] I hope that Juanita is staying in the group
[03/04 21:04] That's strange. I wrote the I hope line before the Hi Chris line
[03/04 21:04] Yes Juanita is staying in the group. She's taking a class right now so is too busy to submit anything.
[03/04 21:05] Good, I hope we get a response from Bogwitch too.
[03/04 21:06] The chat room has a time delay to improve server performance.
[03/04 21:06] I thought Bogwitch was totally gone?
[03/04 21:06] She was stellar though.
[03/04 21:06] She's still on the distribution list.
[03/04 21:07] Her son was in an accident and that took a lot of time.
[03/04 21:09] well that's cool, I mean her being on the list, not the accident--seems as there's a lot of that type tragedy hitting those in the group, alas.
[03/04 21:09] I think she wants to participate again when her life is more settled.
[03/04 21:09] and maybe when the group is more active, alas. Hard to keep things going when only a few are scraping.
[03/04 21:10] Yes, with Elizabeth's parents still having trouble.
[03/04 21:11] I'm going to go to some CT writers meetings later this month. Perhaps I'll find a few SF writers who are interested.
[03/04 21:11] And Bob was having a hard time a while back--it's all in his recent submissions...
[03/04 21:12] I did read you story, Chris, I haven't worked on a critique just yet.
[03/04 21:12] Yes, I read it also, but I haven't been able to form much of an opinion yet.
[03/04 21:12] Do you have anything you'd like to ask us about it?
[03/04 21:12] Yay!
[03/04 21:13] I'm sure I can think of a few things.
[03/04 21:13] Bang, bang
[03/04 21:14] :smt090
[03/04 21:15] Um, well, any thoughts of title prefereces, or other title ideas?
[03/04 21:15] Actually, I was just trying to say "shoot!"
[03/04 21:15] lol
[03/04 21:15] I think I prefer Mercury Rising
[03/04 21:16] You asked about the title, Mercury Rising was a movie a few years back.
[03/04 21:16] No wonder I thought it sounded familiar Smiling
[03/04 21:18] Yeah, I knew that. It's too bad.
[03/04 21:18] A bad movie at that
[03/04 21:18] Bob suggested Veneration Gap. Any opinions?
[03/04 21:18] I wouldn't worry about that.
[03/04 21:19] It wasn't bad. About an autistic boy who could crack some code.
[03/04 21:19] How about Bird of Paradise?
[03/04 21:19] Or Birds of Paradise?
[03/04 21:19] WIngs of Mercury
[03/04 21:20] If you used Central Park as more of a metaphore, you could build a title around that.
[03/04 21:20] What I have trouble with is that I know the background of the stroy but I can't decide if you give enough for an unknowing reader.
[03/04 21:21] Really? I thought it had Bruce Willis and was some silly action flick--perhaps I'm confused
[03/04 21:22] Ah, there's the rub, Dave. How much backstory.
[03/04 21:22] I think there could be a bit more backstory, but it also depends on how the story is used.
[03/04 21:22] It was Bruce WIllis, and a bit of action, but the plot was at least reasonable.
[03/04 21:23] I was more bothered by the council story. It seemed to add a lot of bulk, but not much contribution.
[03/04 21:23] How much do I elaborate on the setting? Flesh it out? I tend to cut out any extraneous details if they don't somehow push the story forward. This is not how many scifi writers work, especially the Hard scifi crowd--Kim Stanley Robinson--to whom I say Ucky
[03/04 21:24] Even at 7K, I think there are too many characters.
[03/04 21:24] Okay, good, Anneliese. I was kind of waiting for comments about the 3 POV's.
[03/04 21:24] If this was part of a GenE anthology, I don't think much back story would be necessary.
[03/04 21:25] The council stuff adds bulk no doubt, but that was my attempt to show a little more of the ship functions.
[03/04 21:25] In a SF mag, you might need some introductory notes.
[03/04 21:25] I don't recall you saying that it is ageneration ship anywhere. That one fact provides a lot of back story
[03/04 21:25] The council story was a completely different story; one I'd like to know more about, but probably not in this context.
[03/04 21:25] I'm definitely not a fan of introductory notes. I'm a firm believe a story needs to stand on itself.
[03/04 21:26] It deserves its own short.
[03/04 21:26] That first POV change even with the # caused me a lot of confusion.
[03/04 21:26] I never directly state, this is a generation ship, but I try to imply it by the setting details I do give, and the evolution things.
[03/04 21:27] I kind of agree with Dave, probably not more than a sentence or two would supply enough back information.
[03/04 21:27] Why not say that it is a generation ship?
[03/04 21:27] I think the evolution details are very good. Also, there was the barest hint that the scientific community...
[03/04 21:27] was willing to tell more, but being squashed.
[03/04 21:28] If you want to keep some mystery you can keep the fact that the genetic changes are intended rather then accidental.
[03/04 21:28] I liked that. It promised more conflict than the wing abortions.
[03/04 21:28] My reasoning for not saying it was this: would the every day people on the ship think of their situation frequetnly? Would they think about the fact they are on a generation ship? In the beginning, certainly, but centuries, eons out, i don't think so.
[03/04 21:29] I agree with you, CM. I think all these folks would worry about is their day-to-day existence.
[03/04 21:29] Heck, we could be on a generational ship now and not know it!
[03/04 21:29] But you have to inform the reader.
[03/04 21:29] I suppose in some ways we are.
[03/04 21:30] Unless the point of the story is the discovery of that fact by one of the characters.
[03/04 21:30] True, Dave. Somehow, that setting must be clear, even if I don't want to come out and say it.
[03/04 21:30] New age philosopy would indicate that to some...which may be a way to incorporate some sense of a generational ship into your back story.
[03/04 21:30] and that's not the point of this story.
[03/04 21:31] Plus, that story (of the ship's residents not knowing thier mission) has been done.
[03/04 21:32] Clarke or Asimov and maybe even Star Trek
[03/04 21:32] I'm thinking of another, but can't remember who.
[03/04 21:33] Heinlein??
[03/04 21:33] Maybe Pohl?
[03/04 21:34] I do think for the purpose of this story, most just don't care where they are--they're living there lives--the environment is comfortable enough that they're not confronted too much by the hard realites of space, and when they are, it's like a tornado siren for those in the midwetst.
[03/04 21:34] Although Heinlein, Clark and Asimov all touched upon the subject.
[03/04 21:34] Maybe. Which brings up a question - If someone writes a story before yu are born are you expected to know about it?
[03/04 21:34] I thought that touch was nice. "Everybody to the shelters, now!"
[03/04 21:35] No, Dave. I don't think so. But your story still should contribute some insight that is original, nevertheless.
[03/04 21:35] I got technical on that. How do they know a gamma burst is coming and why isn't the entire ship shielded?
[03/04 21:36] Even if you are writing a story that was treated 20 years ago, we are now in a different place, and our treatment should be different.
[03/04 21:36] Scientific American had an article about shielding a month or two ago.
[03/04 21:37] Would there be such a thing as a gamma burst in deep space, far, far from any star or other energy source?
[03/04 21:37] Those are the nits that i'm glad you point out, Dave.
[03/04 21:38] My thought was: there ship is an asteroid--a large one, too expensive to shield the entire inside complex.
[03/04 21:38] Wouldn't the mass of the asteroid shield the interior?
[03/04 21:38] Either too expensive, or not enough material.
[03/04 21:39] I believe so--they;re radiation waves.
[03/04 21:39] If I remember the SA article the earth's atmosphere and the magnetic field shields us.
[03/04 21:39] Not from gamma radiation, I don't believe Dave.
[03/04 21:39] It goes through almost anything.
[03/04 21:39] I did read up on it a little when I decided to use it.
[03/04 21:40] Here was my thought: "ense materials are needed for shielding from gamma radiation. "
[03/04 21:41] I think most of the problem in the solar system comes from the sun. In intersteller space I don't know if gamma ray bursters would be strong enough to cause problems
[03/04 21:41] that' dense--so why would they shield the entire ship for rare events when they could do it more cost effectively in small areas?
[03/04 21:42] So why don't we have the problem here on earth? The equivenelt mass of rock to the atmosphere can't be very much.
[03/04 21:43] But if they are travelling near a sun that is very active that may explain the problem
[03/04 21:43] From my understanding, if a serious gamma radiation wave, does hit, the Earth will be fried.
[03/04 21:44] But it hasn't happened in the last 65 million years or more so why now?
[03/04 21:45] The only reason I can see for traveling near any solar system other than the destination would be to pick up raw materials.
[03/04 21:45] Have to think in vast time frames--they're very rare events.
[03/04 21:45] Check this out: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/gamma_990930.html
[03/04 21:45] Or a gravity sling shot effect.
[03/04 21:46] For the space ship to have a recognized drill, the event should have a higher probability, IMO.
[03/04 21:48] That, I don't agree with Anneliese. Since it's something that would wipe out an entire ship in one fell swoop, It's something that SHOULD be drilled--may the drills fade as time goes on, but... Also, for this story, the gamma radiation burst warning was a fake anyway.
[03/04 21:49] And Dave, it's not that it has happed, gamma ray bursts haven't happened, they just haven't happened in our little galactic corner.
[03/04 21:49] I agree that the blast would wipe out the ship, but I wonder if it is a statistically significant probable event.
[03/04 21:49] I agree with Chris the probability of a catastrophic accident doesn't have to be high to warrent a drill.
[03/04 21:51] That "in our corner" is a good point.
[03/04 21:51] Here's another interesting article: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/gammaray_bursts_010522-…
[03/04 21:52] These are things that should go in the WIKI site.
[03/04 21:52] Perhaps eventually.
[03/04 21:52] I rather enjoy talking about stellar destructive tendencies--puts our own petty planetary squabbles a little more in perspective.
[03/04 21:53] At least include the links in our reference section.
[03/04 21:54] Okay, enough about gamma bursts. Do you think I should cut out Larson's Pov, the council pov?
[03/04 21:54] If you have the ship passing a possible gamma ray source that would satisfy my anal objections.
[03/04 21:54] Is the story truly only about Zink and Haven? I debated taking him out early in the writing, but I couldn't convince myself he wasn't necesarry.
[03/04 21:55] I'll have the read the story again with that in mind, but I was confused by the whole thing.
[03/04 21:55] So noted, Dave. And I greatly appreciate those anal objections--those objections are how stories are made better.
[03/04 21:55] He gives an interesting perspective, but is under utilized.
[03/04 21:55] I don't normally use multiple POV's
[03/04 21:56] The story is really about Haven, as I read it.
[03/04 21:56] Oh yeah, Zink, I was confused by that.
[03/04 21:56] I think you could write the entire story from Zinks POV and have a powerful story.
[03/04 21:57] There is true conflict with him. Haven is really just a catalyst.
[03/04 21:57] (although she is the best realized character in the story)
[03/04 21:58] There's an intriquing idea.
[03/04 21:58] BRB
[03/04 21:59] Yes, Haven created this story, but Zink is the main character to undergo a change--one that I don't think is quite believable yet, imo
[03/04 21:59] Haven is a catalyst--now that you put it that way, that makes perfect sense.
[03/04 22:00] I agree. Not quite believable. But you could have real fun with him.
[03/04 22:00] For example, while he's hacking off wings, I get the sense that he's not completely sincere to himself in his beliefs.
[03/04 22:01] The way he looks at the wing bulges of others is almost sexual.
[03/04 22:01] Yeah, Zink's a juicy character--I did have fun writing him--actually, in the first draft, there was much more of him, but it didn't add anything--it was all "revenge" or "protest" planning that got cut.
[03/04 22:01] I rather liked that he set in motion events the details of which even he was not aware.
[03/04 22:02] I think you could draw him as an even more conflicted character.
[03/04 22:02] oh, good, I like that too--if seems very Human
[03/04 22:02] For example, while he is a successful surgeon, he could be the one arrested in the sting operation.
[03/04 22:02] Rather than going for the surgery himself.
[03/04 22:03] It's like ZInk's gay and an evangelical Christian at the same time--that's the model
[03/04 22:03] The fact that he still has wings... that they were not clipped when he was a youth, yea, exactly.
[03/04 22:04] I was going to say a closet homosexual, but rather in reverse.
[03/04 22:04] You don't think he wouldn't eventually submit and try to get his wings cutoff?
[03/04 22:04] I think he likes the idea of taking the wings off others while keeping his own.
[03/04 22:05] I didn't get the point of cutting off the wings.
[03/04 22:05] In my mind, Zink knows he shouldn't hate wings, nearly all people don't, yet he does--thus he's willing to desecrate others, but not himself.
[03/04 22:05] There's a more than a little perversity about him.
[03/04 22:05] It's like they are trying to change themselves but not letting themselves change
[03/04 22:05] Yes, exactly.
[03/04 22:05] What I didn't get was why more folks weren't trying to fly.
[03/04 22:06] It makes him feel powerful in his own small way
[03/04 22:06] He could be picking and choosing his victims.
[03/04 22:06] Yeah, Anneliese, that was a thought--to have a scene with the playground children trying to fly--it probably should be in there, but it got cut for time.
[03/04 22:07] Perhaps I could simply rewrite the playground scene a little.
[03/04 22:08] I can see that children, especially would be resentful and jealous of the difference that allowed Haven's wings to work, while theirs were non-functional.
[03/04 22:08] I didn't want to make him evil--I don't think Zink cuts off wings like a serial killer--he cuts off wings off those who come to him, or whose parents force their kids. I debated the serial killer angle, but decided against it.
[03/04 22:08] Though, now as I recall, I did hint a serial killer running amok in one council scene.
[03/04 22:08] Thar serial killer viewpoint would make more sense to me.
[03/04 22:09] I don't think there has to be any serial killer aspect, although I can see flightless individuals acting that way.
[03/04 22:09] but, imo, that's been done to death, and didn't want to rehash old serial killing plots.
[03/04 22:09] Sort of like the serial killer who hires prostitutes then kills them for being immoral.
[03/04 22:09] I think Zink is just greedy. He got into this business without thinking about it.
[03/04 22:10] Anneliese, I forget, but you can save this chat right?
[03/04 22:10]
[03/04 22:10] WHy would anyone want to cut off their wings?
[03/04 22:10] As he gets older, he begins to see his hypocracy... he has wings, but is savior to the wannabe wingless.
[03/04 22:10] I think I can save this chat.
[03/04 22:11] Why would anyone slash a tongue to make it forked?
[03/04 22:11] (I hope so! It's very lively and useful! Plus I want to save those links I copied and pasted--closed them by accident)
[03/04 22:12] I don't know that answer either.
[03/04 22:12] Why would anyone cut? People always do things that others don't understand
[03/04 22:12] I guess I wandered why folks wore shirts over their wings. That has to be uncomfortable.
[03/04 22:12] I mean wondered.
[03/04 22:12] It's what produces conflict on a global scale
[03/04 22:12] (And cutting makes PERFECT sense)
[03/04 22:13] Hmm.. Yeah, that was a point not really dealt with, Anneliese.
[03/04 22:13] You don't necessarily need to deal with it.
[03/04 22:13] I guess I envisioned them able to furl their wings on their back without creating much difference--it's probably not explained well enough.
[03/04 22:14] Shirts are great equalizers. Hides the puny wings from the full-scale flight version.
[03/04 22:14] Lol!
[03/04 22:14] Now that would certainly exist: Wing envy!
[03/04 22:14] Exactly, LOL!
[03/04 22:14] I wonder if bird have that--plumage does help attract a mate doesn't it!?
[03/04 22:15] It surely does. I was about to ask... are these wings feathered?
[03/04 22:15] Good question
[03/04 22:15] Not in my mind.
[03/04 22:16] Natural extensions of skin and bone
[03/04 22:16] However, over time, its quite possible feathers could develop, as it did in our planets evolutionary history.
[03/04 22:16] Not in mammels
[03/04 22:16] Would make for an interesting follow-up tale many eons in the future.
[03/04 22:17] Is this a natural evolution or genetic engineering?
[03/04 22:18] To beat a supposedly dead horse, maybe they kept the shielding low to facilitate mutaions
[03/04 22:18] Feathers could certainly be developed. I'm not sure, but I think they are important for flight.
[03/04 22:18] Both.
[03/04 22:18] It's a "natural" things that's being shaped very, very slowly over the eons to create desire characteristics, imo.
[03/04 22:19] By changing the environment the people live in, we can indirectly change their evolution over time.
[03/04 22:19] --not that this is stated in the story.
[03/04 22:20] And I don't think you have to state it, explicitely.
[03/04 22:20] In fact, I muddle it in the story--the basic nonscience person doesn't really know whether its natural or engineered--there are people who think both and clash-thus, why I created the Wingless.
[03/04 22:20] I think it has to be engineered in part.
[03/04 22:20] Oh, what a juicy debate.
[03/04 22:20] agreed, Dave
[03/04 22:21] I think the Wingless should be a more openly political group. Rather like skinheads.
[03/04 22:21] It's a life style choice. After all, what good are wings when they don't allow us to fly?
[03/04 22:21] However, though that's what's really happening in this version of the GenE world, it doesn't mean people KNOW that, at least, not anymore. Perhaps at the beginning they did.
[03/04 22:23] This may be too complicated for a short story.
[03/04 22:23] Also, in my view, the wings develop so slowly, over hundreds and hundreds of generations, that there development doesn't overtly cause disgust because the change is so slow--it's only later, when the difference is fully developed are there problems--think skin color as one blatant example.
[03/04 22:23] Ah, yes, Dave, that's what's fried my brain!
[03/04 22:23] One more thing--it is getting late:
[03/04 22:24] Though this story IS set in a GenE world, I don't believe I'm setting up the ultimate rules, ideas, etc. This is just one attempt, like Cutting Time, to produce something in the GenE environment, based on a few of the details we did discuss.
[03/04 22:24] I'm thinking of a recent Niven story about a ship that is trying to get to a particular star but has to detour to another for repairs.
[03/04 22:24] Too true.
[03/04 22:24] It takes place over several generations.
[03/04 22:25] Yes, I would like to get back to the GenE discussions again, and finalize the rules... if we are going to.
[03/04 22:25] What I'm very happy about, is this story DID create fantastic discussion between the 3 of us. That means there is meat here, even if it needs to be cooked a little more!
[03/04 22:26] To do this in a short I think you need a paragraph or two in italics to explain the background
[03/04 22:26] And I am definately going to try to place this chat in the logs.
[03/04 22:26] I'm not certain we will ever fully finalize the rules, but I'm willing to keep banging away.
[03/04 22:27] Perhaps we can set-up another GenE chat, one where an email is sent to the group about it.
[03/04 22:27] I don't think we need to... at least not to get started cooking stories.
[03/04 22:27] You only need rules on earth. After the ships leave they make their own rules.
[03/04 22:27] I want to get a little more work done then try shopping a proposal around.
[03/04 22:27] Very true, Dave.
[03/04 22:27] I think that's a good idea, CM.
[03/04 22:28] You can always just write it, Anneliese! I;m eager to see where others go with this.
[03/04 22:28] Oh, I just might do that. I have some ideas simmering in the back recesses of my brain.
[03/04 22:28] Ijust had a thought as to why these ships have to be so slow. Maybe there is enough matter between stars, even anti matter that fast (near light speed) is impossible.
[03/04 22:29] They're on a very slow simmer, however Sad
[03/04 22:29] Then, it's set, we'll plan another GenE chat, and even if no one else shows the three of us can bang away at this some more--and perhaps that'll be a good time to start reinvesting time in the WIKI.
[03/04 22:29] Do you want to have the chat sooner, like sometime this month, or later?
[03/04 22:30] Add it to the Wiki!
[03/04 22:30] Oh, and Dave, what happened to the Catch 22 discussion?
[03/04 22:30] Sooner is better, especially if no one is in the queue
[03/04 22:30] I was hoping someone else would step in. But I guess not.
[03/04 22:31] Oh, and Dave, what happened with Vurt?
[03/04 22:31] We'll have to address this later, next chat, or on the boards. It's getting late!
[03/04 22:31] I can always send out Chapter 4 of Chrysalis.
[03/04 22:31] I read the first 100 pages then stopped. It was all the same to me.
[03/04 22:31] Go for it, Anneliese. Really. I'd love to read more!
[03/04 22:31] Yes send out more.
[03/04 22:31] Doesn't surprise me. Didn't seem your style at all.
[03/04 22:32] DOes anything happen?
[03/04 22:32] Well, good night for now, guys. It's been great chatting with you!
[03/04 22:32] Now I can finally say some put the book down! Ha. Your the first.
[03/04 22:32] gnight, Anneliese. Thanks for the wonderful discussion.
[03/04 22:32] Bye. Next week.
[03/04 22:33] Yes, it does--but in the beginning, your mostly trapped in this crazy world that makes no sense.
[03/04 22:33] And when things happen, it only makes things more strange.
[03/04 22:33] Maybe I'll try to read the last 100 pages
[03/04 22:33] But in the end, everything does relate perfectly, which is why I love the book so much.
[03/04 22:33] I'm shutting up now.
[03/04 22:33] really.
[03/04 22:33] I'm not typing another word.
[03/04 22:34] *** acmfox has left the chatbox
[03/04 22:34] Bye
[03/04 22:34] Gnight Dave, this was fun.

acmfox enters this room

>[acmfox] Welcome to our chat. Please obey the net etiquette while chatting: try to be pleasant and polite.

DaveK enters this room

[DaveK] Hi Anneliese.

[acmfox] Hi Dave!

[DaveK] How's the chat room working today?

[acmfox] Still have to fix the colors, I see.

[acmfox] Otherwise, I think it's ok.

[acmfox] How was your week?

[DaveK] I'm just coming off a five day cold. Sat. I spent on my back moaning.

[DaveK] And yours?

[acmfox] I'm sorry to hear that. I just got back from San Diego this morning. So I'm tired.

[DaveK] Oh yeah, a board meeting. How did that go?

[acmfox] It went very well. The strategic plan is nearing completion.

[DaveK] You have a plan? Doesn't sound like any company I've worked for in the last five years.

[acmfox] Not quite. But it should be finished in a few months. It's been a many-year process getting to this point.

[acmfox] It is critical to a non-profit's ability to raise funding.

[DaveK] Have you had a business plan?

[DaveK] It's critical to any busineses ability to raise money.

[acmfox] Not really, and that has been part of the problem.

[DaveK] Unless you get a business person in the company no one wants to write it.

camidon enters this room

[acmfox] That's true. I'm trying to do one for my company and it isn't getting done.

[DaveK] HI Chris.

[acmfox] Hey CM!

[camidon] Evening "chat crew"

[DaveK] There are several books out there. Check your library. That's where I found my references.

[acmfox] Guess what? I got to go in a sea cave yesterday in La Jolla.

[camidon] Hey, cool!

Elizabeth enters this room

[DaveK] You can't see in a cave. it's dark.

[Elizabeth] hi there!

[DaveK] Hi Elizabeth

[Elizabeth] how was San Diego?

[acmfox] I even have one, I think. And my pal, the executive director of the chamber of commerce is helping me.

[camidon] I got to talk about tarantulas in caves to my coworkers today. Fun.

[camidon] Hi Elizabeth,

[acmfox] Hi Elizabeth!

[Elizabeth] lol CM!

[acmfox] San Diego was good. But I'm exhausted now.

[Elizabeth] I can sympathize. I'm wiped.

[acmfox] LOL Dave!

[acmfox] How was the visit with your folks, Elizabeth?

[Elizabeth] Good, but hard in some ways.

[Elizabeth] My dad's made a lot of progress, but he still has a ways to go.

[acmfox] Has he gotten any vision back?

[camidon] test

[Elizabeth] They finally took the trach and feeding tubes out, and he's talking, but no eyesight.

[acmfox] Bummer.

[acmfox] But talking is good.

[DaveK] Chris, good work on all those critiques. You're making me feel some pressure.

[Elizabeth] Talking is good, and this time Colin got to see him. I think having Colin there did Dad a lot of good.

[Elizabeth] same here. I just wish my work schedule would settle down.

[acmfox] I'm sure that it did.

[DaveK] Do they expect him to regain some sight?

[camidon] Way to keep going, Elizabeth. Stay positive.

[acmfox] Yep, I'm feeling the pressure too. And I have to requests to join in my email tonight.

[camidon] Dave, finally had some time to myself, so that helped.

[camidon] Anneliese, I'd like to request a critique spot (I'll email you too), I want to write another GenE story. I've fot the nugget of a story...

[Elizabeth] I don't think they expect him to regain his eyesight, Dave. Not at this stage.

[camidon] that's "got" not "fot"

[DaveK] That's too bad.

[acmfox] So far as I know, Chris, the queue is wide open. When I can get other aspects of my life settled, I think I'll submit something also.

[Elizabeth] how's the new workshop coming, Anneliese?

[camidon] Sounds good. I'll look at the calendar and suggest a date in my email, Anneliese.

[acmfox] It's coming along well. This past weekend while I was out, Jim installed his emergency exit,

[acmfox] so all that is left of the build-out is for me to finish the walls...one more coat of joint compound and then paint.

[camidon] Perhaps we can suggest another writing challenge, this one based around GenE?? Perhaps this might renew interest in the Wiki? <I haven't been to it in a while, but it's such a good resource.>

[acmfox] He'll be tweaking the space for months, but it's a useable workshop now.

[Elizabeth] good for him! I still need to run fire drills w/Colin. Cub Scout requirement.

[Elizabeth] Good for you. How's his eyesight been?

[acmfox] I think that's a great idea, Chris.

[acmfox] We have a check-up Wednesday, but I don't think there has been any change.

[acmfox] Outside of the writing challenge, what else can we do to get ourselves using the wiki again?

[camidon] Send a reminder to the group? Offer a Wiki instructional chat?

[camidon] Perhaps send these after the "new" members are added to the list.

[acmfox] That's not a bad idea.

[DaveK] Give the new members critique credits if they use the wiki.

[acmfox] I need, as a minimum, to get back to sending around a monthly newsletter again.

[camidon] I love the WIKI, also the postbooard, but when I'm busy, those are the things that drop off my radar screen first. Thus, why I haven't been to them in a long while..

[DaveK] Both need constant new entries to be interesting enough to visit.

[camidon] I agree, Dave.

[Elizabeth] I know I haven't been by there in a loooong time.

[acmfox] It's been ages since I've checked on the wiki. And I have an update or two to install there.

[camidon] That would help, Anneliese, especially for new members, Anneliese. If we keep hitting the group over the head with the postboard and WIKI site, if a couple of us make a few new posts, that might generate some interest.

[acmfox] Well, I'm beginning to see some free time opening up, so this group is definately going to see more of my attention.

[Elizabeth] I'm going to be working 7 days/week for at least the next month and a half, unfortunately.

[camidon] We need to fill the critique spots up too. Doesn't look so good to new members when the old members aren't submitting stories.

[acmfox] Yikes, Elizabeth! That's awful.

[DaveK] That sucks Elizabeth. I complain about 4 days a week.

[camidon] Anneliese, you mentioned Wordcrafter (I think) was interested in returning? Is that true?

[camidon] Elizabeth, is there anything we can do to help?

[acmfox] Yep. He sent me a note asking to be added to the distribution.

[Elizabeth] I should be okay to send out stories each week, but that'll be about all until late March or early April.

[camidon] As soon as he's added, send out a message to the group welcoming him back! That might reinvigorate a few of the "oldie" members.

[Elizabeth] I'm on the project with too little design and construction time, too few resources, and a psychotic manager.

[acmfox] Sounds like a plan, Chris.

[acmfox] You have my sympathies, Elizabeth. Don't let it make you crazy.

[acmfox] Also, I was thinking of putting together a bunch of old junk of mine. If there is nothing for the queue, Elizabeth, you can subject the group to that.

[DaveK] That sounds a bit like my project. Today we got some feedback that the designs they had us using for months were wrong.

[Elizabeth] For a while things were going badly enough that I was worried for my job. Luckily, my managers are understanding.

[camidon] We certainley understand, Elizabeth. You've got mucho mucho stuff going on. We're here to help with the group!

[Elizabeth] I appreciate it, guys. :)

[camidon] "Junk" Is that a literary term? Give yourself some credit, Anneliese! Many of us love reading you and Elizabeth's work.

[DaveK] Junk is what the literati use for my work

[camidon] Dave, let's to try to "freshen" up the bboard and Wiki sites with some new posts. Then, when a message goes out to the group, at least it will look like some recent activity, which might spark some others to participate. Maybe not, but all we can do is try.

[Elizabeth] You don't give yourself enough credit, Anneliese.

[DaveK] Elizabeth, did you see the Dilbet two Sunday's ago? About writing the software to write the requirements.

[DaveK] OK Chris. I'll at least match your posts.

[Elizabeth] Yes, I did. Laughed my head off. One of my co-workers posted it outside of his office.

[acmfox] One think I was thinking of using the wiki for was a personal journal or blog. Could we all commit time to make that kind of post from time to time?

[DaveK] Dilbert to just too close to reality sometimes.

[acmfox] It might only say, "I didn't have any time to write today," but that would be just fine.

[Elizabeth] I might be able to dredge a story idea out of this, eventually...a way for managers to get programmers working 24-7.

[DaveK] I should start one about how to get off your butt and sit on your buut and write.

[DaveK] I don't know the answer but I can start it.

[camidon] I'd be willing to try, Anneliese. I've never been good with journals though

[camidon] It might be cool if a bunch of us do it.

[acmfox] Neither am I. In fact, I'm absolutely terrible with journals.

[DaveK] Do we need a blog section?

[Elizabeth] I haven't been much good at journals either, but I could give it a shot.

[camidon] If we set up a whole section dedicated to this. I could see some others in the group interested.

[camidon] and if there were lots of email reminders about it, that would help too... Just like the chats every Monday too.

[acmfox] If you want to set it up as a blog rather than through the wiki, that is not a problem.

[DaveK] If you do that monthly newsletter you can comment on some of the better entries.

[acmfox] I've gotten pretty good with that kind of software. It might be time to upgrade the site overall.

[camidon] Anneliese, There's seems to be a problem with the bboard... Tried to access it, but couldn't.

[acmfox] Or at least praise the folks that makes entries.

[camidon] Error message: phpBB : Critical Error Could not get theme data for themes_id [2]

[acmfox] What theme were you using? When I upgraded the board, it blew away the themes. I reinstalled Chronicals, but might have missed something.

[DaveK] I'm using chronicles, it works for me.

[acmfox] I see you and dave on the board right now.

[camidon] Nope, not getting through. Don't have the chronicles theme. That error pops up when I do most anything, try to log in, sometimes when I just open the bboard.

[acmfox] I'm checking into it right now.

[camidon] Now I'm only getting that error.

[Elizabeth] I can't get into the bboard either. Says it doesn't recognize my name or password.

[acmfox] Try it again. I just installed the other theme.

[camidon] nope

[camidon] same error

[DaveK] I'll try getting off oan then on again.

[acmfox] Do you remember what your id was, Elizabeth?

[camidon] Anneliese, just another thing to poke around with during the week if you have time.

[DaveK] Still works for me.

[Elizabeth] I thought it was HOST WRTR SFWW. Is the bboard case-sensitive?

[camidon] Anyone want to email the chat to the group? See if it sparks anything?

[acmfox] it's HOST WPLC SFWW

[camidon] I've got to move along this evening to a warm and cozy locality--my bed.

[acmfox] Would you like to?

[Elizabeth] whoops. Shows how long it's been since I logged on. :)

[DaveK] There is a name like that Elizabeth

[Elizabeth] It logged me in, sort of. I got the following error: phpBB : Critical Error

[Elizabeth] same error message CM got.

[DaveK] Anneliese, can you set everyone to the chronicles look

[camidon] On another note, the WIKI seems to be fine--I can log into that. :)

[acmfox] When I look up the user profiles for you, they indicate Chronicles, which should be fine (it's what Dave and I are using).

[acmfox] But... there have been some nasties out there crashing things. (They trashed the chat room last week).

[acmfox] It's possible that the forum is also crippled.

[DaveK] I tried to do a post and ot failed. An SQL error : 1016 Can't open file: 'phpbb_search_wordlist.MYI' (errno: 144)

[camidon] Have a goodnight all. Elizabeth, my thoughts are with you and your family. Anneliese, submit something to the group! Dave, Write, damn you write, don't waste your talent!

[camidon] It's been fun, as it always is.

[DaveK] Bye Chris

[Elizabeth] good night, everybody! I'm going to try and get some sleep.

camidon exits from this room

Elizabeth exits from this room

[DaveK] Bye Elizabeth. ANd you too Anneliese see you next week.

[DaveK] Do you want me to stay on for debugging reasons?

[acmfox] I'm having some problems with the chat room.

[acmfox] I just reset Chris & Elizabeth's themes to subSilver, which is default.

[acmfox] That might fix the forum for them.

[acmfox] I don't know that we can do any more since they have gone.

[DaveK] Do you want me to try that? Can you post?

[acmfox] I'm going to try posting this chat.

DaveK enters this room

[anneliese] Hi Dave!

[DaveK] Hi guys

Elizabeth enters this room

[aweiss] I think it will be.

[Elizabeth] hello there!

[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!

[aweiss] Hi Dave, Elizabeth.

[anneliese] Wow! What punctuality!

[anneliese] Did everyone have a good holiday?

[Elizabeth] lol! That's what happens when I actually get a day off. :)

[aweiss] It was good.

[Elizabeth] Had an excellent holiday.

[Elizabeth] But I'm more than ready for kiddo to go back to school.

[anneliese] I hope it was a nice day off. We spent today packing. The move is tomorrow.

[DaveK] Very good

[Elizabeth] good luck with that, Anneliese.

[anneliese] He has 7 buddies to help with the move, so it should go well enough. The only problem for me is going to pick up the truck at 6:30

[Elizabeth] bleah! I hate early morning manual labor!

[Elizabeth] Early morning computer work is bad enough.

[anneliese] Manual labor is a bit easier for me. There is no way the brain will work at that hour!

[DaveK] My body wakes up before my mind

[anneliese] Same with me, Dave.

[Elizabeth] so are we about ready to begin chatting about the submission?

[anneliese] I'm ready

[aweiss] I'm ready

[Elizabeth] before we begin, Andrea, do you have any questions or comments for the group?

[aweiss] Nothing that i can think of right now.

[aweiss] Just that, how does one log the chat?

[Elizabeth] copy and paste is the only way I know of. Anneliese may know of something else.

[anneliese] There's no logger, per se. But you can save the chat to an HTML page.

[aweiss] Okay, I'll do that.

[anneliese] Just show all the lines (I do something like /show 300), then save.

[aweiss] Got it set up.

[aweiss] Actually, that works better.

[Elizabeth] I found the basic idea of this submission intriguing, Andrea, and I do like a lot of the details you've put in about this world.

[Elizabeth] You've obviously put a lot of thought into the world and the characters.

[Elizabeth] The trick now is to figure out where in the story to put all of these bits you've created.

[aweiss] Thanks. It's been ten years inthe making, this novel

[Elizabeth] There's a lot of backstory, historical explanations, flashbacks, etc., which slow the story down, and most of which we won't need until later in the story.

[Elizabeth] And there are so many characters introduced in this first chapter that, frankly, I had some trouble keeping track of all of them.

[Elizabeth] The function of the first chapter is to introduce the main character, their setting, and their problem, and to make all three of those compelling enough that the reader will want to keep reading.

[aweiss] Okay. All of the backstory and the other things were there beucase others felt they were needed. I'd felt that people would get it without that. But I decided at one point that some should be there.

[anneliese] The backstory probably needs to be somewhere... but figuring out the best place is the hard part.

[aweiss] Yes. I'd felt that with the other charcters, it was important not to show Jo being alone, that she had friends and family, a girlfriend.

[aweiss] And the conflict.

[Elizabeth] I like Jo as a character, and I can sort of sympathize with her relationship with Louise...she's a teen in her first serious relationship, and her girlfriend is planning to leave.

[anneliese] The folks that suggested more backstory... how much had they read?

[aweiss] The first three chapters, and they felt the story would be improved with an explnation of how reproduction happens on a gay and lesbian planet, for instance.

[Elizabeth] But even the dialogue between Jo and Louise doesn't show that much conflict. Louise ends up reassuring Jo, and kissing her, and making Jo feel like everything will work out. The chapter ends without any real conflict, any suspense to hook the reader into the next chapter.

[Elizabeth] And at this point I don't believe her feelings for Curt at all. There's a paragraph in there about her "sexual frustration", but she spends far more time and energy worrying about what will happen between her and Louise.

[aweiss] It want the suspecnce to be very quiet and ordinary. But with a twist.People think things will be okay. but their not.

[aweiss] She wants Curt to be in the back ground

[aweiss] But in the second chapter, Curt steps onto the stage. And Jo almost gets beaten by a mob that Louise sets after Jo.

[anneliese] Think about this. If Curt was never mentioned but for the poster, what would that do for the flow?

[aweiss] Not sure what you mean by the poster.

[Elizabeth] the poster of the rock star?

[anneliese] (I almost wondered if Louise was the Differo)

[Elizabeth] No offense, but if everything seems to work out by the end of the first chapter, IMO, people will stop reading.

[aweiss] Okay. I could do that, it might improve things.

[Elizabeth] And I'm not sure an explanation of the reproductive technology is needed right away.

[Elizabeth] The mere mention of Jo

[aweiss] I wanted everything to seem to be okay. But it really isn't.

[aweiss] I could take out the reproductive explnation

[Elizabeth] of Jo's two moms, and an off-hand remark about her dads, would imply to most readers how families are set up on Jo's world.

[aweiss] Yes it would. Familes are mostly composed of two moms and dads.

[DaveK] I apologize that I haven't been doing any critiqueing since nanowromo. I did a quick scan of this chapter and I agree with the two sentiments expressed so far. oo much info dump9ng and not enough conflict.

[Elizabeth] Likewise the conversation Jo has with Mama Beth (which was one of my favorite parts of the chapter, BTW). Shows the way relationships work on their world, and also shows the loving, caring relationship between Jo and her birth mother.

[Elizabeth] Something, I'm sure, that Jo couldn't bear to lose.

[DaveK] Although I'm not sure what markent you're going for so I'm not sure how much conflicy is needed at this point.

[Elizabeth] Hearing Mama Beth talk about something that Jo has fantasized about, or experienced lately,

[aweiss] The reason there isn't much conflict at first isthat I wanted it low key at first, otherwise things would get dark way too fast.

[Elizabeth] and condemn it, or show her own bigotry towards differosexuals, would be a tremendous source of conflict for Jo.

[aweiss] Thanks Elizabeth

[Elizabeth] She loves and respects her mothers, wouldn't do anything to hurt them,

[Elizabeth] but is drawn to do and feel things that they find repugnant.

[aweiss] I'm going for more of a mainstream market then hardcore SF.

[DaveK] It doesn't have to be the major conflict of the story, it can be some side issue that grwos into the major point.

[aweiss] That's exactly what happens Dave, that the issues put forth in the first grow into more conflict.

[Elizabeth] Maybe have Jo and Louise, instead of a kiss-and-make up discussion, have a full-fledged fight.

[aweiss] As for her moms, That isse of not hurting them comes out in a later chapter, when she comes out as difero to them.

[Elizabeth] Or have one of Jo's friends make a snide remark about how much time she spent with Curt after lessons.

[anneliese] I actually like the kiss and make up discussion, but I wonder about hinting that Louise is not fully honest.

[aweiss] They reject her at first.

[DaveK] Issues aren't conflict.

[DaveK] At least to my male brain.

[Elizabeth] lol Dave!

[aweiss] I think for Jo and Louise to have a big fight would be too childish for them.

[Elizabeth] But there can be conflict in the sense that, if these people knew what Jo was really feeling and thinking, she would be in some sort of danger.

[aweiss] But the issures do in later chapters

[Elizabeth] Or if she struggles to maintain her "normal" life--school, girlfriend, etc.--and go against her real feelings.

[aweiss] Exactly. In later chapter, people do, and she nearly gets beaten. And raped.

[anneliese] IMO, there oughtn't be much of a hint that Jo is a Differo in the first chapter...

[Elizabeth] I guess the reason that the danger doesn't come through right now is that you tell about differophobia, instead of showing it.

[aweiss] But that's the conflict I wanted to get into straight away.

[anneliese] ...unless you want to start the story with the gang attack in Chapter 2.

[aweiss] Hmm, showing it. A differophobic music video then maybe.

[Elizabeth] Stuff like, "I'd seen articles with differophobic viewpoints in Mama Beth's office". Do Jo's mothers read this stuff? Quote it?

[Elizabeth] Make offhand remarks about differos?

[aweiss] To start the story with the gang attack would be too negative.

[aweiss] I could do that with the aritcles and her moms.

[anneliese] I agree. Which is why we might want to only have the conflict of the relationship in Chapter 1, and the inklings of being differo later.

[aweiss] or off hand remarks.

[Elizabeth] "Another one of those women was in the shop today. Three children, a fourth on the way, trying to herd her little beasts on her own before her *man* came home. No sense of self-respect, no self-control..."

[Elizabeth] "How can you expect to raise children with just two parents, for goodness' sake?"

[anneliese] I like that, Elizabeth!

[aweiss] I could. But the point I want to get across right now, is that to show someone with internal conflict, it exactly what a gay person goes through on earth.

[aweiss] I could do that Elizabeth.

[DaveK] What you want is to keep the reader reading past the first chapter.

[Elizabeth] Or have one of Jo's dads tell her about his younger, more experimental days, and how he almost made a horrible, horrible mistake with a differo girl.

[aweiss] See, I want to tell stright people that if they had to come out, they wouldn't be so homophobic.

[anneliese] You have so many other things confusing this poor girl! Should she break up with her girlfriend... peer pressure with the clique... etc.

[Elizabeth] Which will come out, I think, if you tell your story well.

[aweiss] I do. But not in awhiz bang, screaming and yelling sort of way. More real life and ordnary.

[Elizabeth] If you try to hammer the point into the reader's heads, you will lose most of them.

[aweiss] I do. And those conflicts carry over into the next chapter.

[Elizabeth] If, on the other hand, you give them a character they come to like and care about, and show her struggling with these problems...they may sympathize with her, and begin to see things differently.

[aweiss] The clique, for example, is very differophobic

[aweiss] That's exactly what i want to do Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth] Maybe the first place you should show Jo is with the clique. She's uncomfortable enough with them as it is.

[Elizabeth] What if they start telling differo jokes or something like that, while she's right next to Curt?

[aweiss] I could expand on the clique a bit, show a scene, maybe from the second chapter.

[aweiss] They do.

[DaveK] Are the schools sexually segregated?

[Elizabeth] Is her main problem with Louise really that Louise is going to a different school next year, or has Jo started to drift apart from Louise in terms of her interests and beliefs?

[aweiss] No, their not Dave.

[aweiss] Both Elizabeth. Only Jo Doesn't realize that yet. She will though.

[anneliese] Even if Jo doesn't realize it, you can certainly show your readers.

[aweiss] I could

[anneliese] A scene with the clique will do that, as can the homework date.

[aweiss] Okay

[anneliese] Or even the phone call with her other friend.

[aweiss] All right

[Elizabeth] Although, IMO, you should probably cut down on the number of people you introduce us to in the first chapter.

[Elizabeth] Maybe just Jo, Louise, and their mothers.

[aweiss] I could, but I'm not sure who i could cut, and keep the story together. I was thinking of Nell. But I also wanted to show Jo and her friends.

[Elizabeth] A side mention of Curt, maybe. You don't want to introduce so many characters that the reader has trouble keeping track of them all.

[aweiss] Okay. I hadn't realized so many would be confusing.

[Elizabeth] You can show Jo's friends (the good friends and not-so-good ones) through a scene with the clique.

[anneliese] Curt can certainly be introduced later. You could use Nell as counterpoint to the clique... esp if she isn't in it.

[Elizabeth] We don't need to see all of Jo's life at once.

[aweiss] I could. maybe by taking the scene with the clique from the second chapter and expanding on it.

[aweiss] I wanted people to ge the full picture of Jo's life, is why I did that.

[Elizabeth] Yeah, I like Nell as a character. She seems to be a real friend to Jo.

[anneliese] If you could tell Jo's full story in one chapter... it would be a short story :D

[aweiss] She is.

[anneliese] Nell is so different than Louise... you can use that to advantage.

[aweiss] LOL, Anneliese

[aweiss] I could

[DaveK] Maybe you're trying to cram too much intothe first chapter. 7000 words is a bit long. Maybe cut it down and focus on one or two points.

[aweiss] All of this has given me a lot to think about

[aweiss] I could Dave

[Elizabeth] I agree with Dave. The first chapter is pretty long.

[anneliese] Just remember... it's YOUR story, not ours.

[aweiss] It is, but it's the intro

[aweiss] I know Anneliese. It's just that there is alot riding on this. A writer friend offered me an intro to her agent if she liked the MS.

[DaveK] The first third of the book is the intro.

[anneliese] And we all want to help you.

[aweiss] That and this book has been work over a lot too. I've been editing it with a freelance editor.

[aweiss] It is Dave.

[Elizabeth] The advise I got once, in a novel-writing class, was that you have about 1000 words to get your reader interested in the story.

[aweiss] I know you do.

[Elizabeth] And agents and editors are pickier readers than most.

[aweiss] I can do a lot with one thousand

[Elizabeth] You want to have the whole MS ready, in case they do like it and want more, but those first chapters have to be really polished.

[aweiss] I do. I've been working on the first four chapters the most.

[aweiss] But especially the first

[Elizabeth] My main advice for the first chapters would be to tell less and show more.

[aweiss] Okay

[Elizabeth] There's a lot of narrative and explanations where you could have action, or dialogue, that would do a better job of informing the reader.

[aweiss] That's always been on of my problems, showing vs telling. But I'm wiorking on that.

[aweiss] I could

[DaveK] Go through the ms and higlight all the telling parts. Then rewrite them.

[aweiss] All right

[Elizabeth] Or figure out which explanations can wait until later in the story.

[aweiss] As I say, there is a lot to think about here

[aweiss] I just felt that all the explnations just were part of the set up.

[Elizabeth] I hope our comments have been helpful. I like the idea and the characters.

[Elizabeth] What you need to work on is showing vs. telling, and keeping the narrative flowing.

[DaveK] I remember one writing book I read. In it the author gives a short story and then tells how he wrote it. One think about showing vs telling is a scene where he does a flashback in order to give the history as a scene instead of a info dump.

[aweiss] They have been very helpful. Thanks

[aweiss] I do.

[Elizabeth] Remember that flashbacks can be very useful, but they can also slow down a narrative.

[Elizabeth] But they're always better than info dumps.

[aweiss] I knww. I'd just been warned off flashbacks form eariler crits

[DaveK] Info dump acceptablility depends on the genre. It is more acceptable in SF and less in mainstream.

[aweiss] Of prior versions.

[aweiss] Okay, that's good to know.

[Elizabeth] Also remember that the reader doesn't need to know everything right away...as long as they have a basic idea of who this person is, and what their problems are,

[Elizabeth] a little mystery or uncertainly will only increase the reader's interest.

[aweiss] Okay. I'll remember that.

[DaveK] I second that point.

[aweiss] Okay

[Elizabeth] They'll want to find out more about this person if 1) you can get them to care about the character and 2) you don't deluge them with information in the beginning.

[Elizabeth] I hope we haven't been too rough on you.

[aweiss] I know. No, no one has.

[anneliese] As Elizabeth said, you've got the makings of a good story here.

[aweiss] Just that it's alot to take in.

[aweiss] Thanks

[DaveK] We may be rough but we're (I hope this comes across) not mean.

[aweiss] Cool.

[aweiss] Not mean at all.

[DaveK] I don't know how much SF is acceptable in mainstream. Myabe you should find a book like that and see how it handles telling the back story.
[aweiss] Okay

[DaveK] ANyone, do you know of a SF book that madfe it big in mainstream?

[aweiss] The Left Hand of Darkness

[anneliese] Dune

[Elizabeth] 2001: A Space Odyssey

[Elizabeth] Or try Margaret Atwood's books. Especially Handmaid's Tale or The Blind Assassin.

[aweiss] Okay.

[Elizabeth] Or Oryx and Crake. She writes speculative fiction, but because she's a mainstream novelist, it doesn't get lumped into the category of SF.
[aweiss] I'll mkae a note of her.

[Elizabeth] Plus she does a wonderful job of handling backstory and character.
[aweiss] Okay.

[DaveK] I thnk Orsen Card just wrote a fantasey book targeted for the mainstream. Forget the name.

[Elizabeth] It's been a good chat...I'm glad you were able to show up, Andrea. Any last words before I sign off for the evening?

[Elizabeth] Dave, was that Magic Street?
[DaveK] Right, Magic Street.

[aweiss] It has. So am I. I just wanted to say, that i had a great time, and a lot to think about.

[Elizabeth] Good night, everybody!

Elizabeth exits from this room

[aweiss] Night everyone

[DaveK] Good night E.

[anneliese] Nighters everyone. Good chat!

[anneliese] Hi CM!

[camidon] Howdy!!

[camidon] How's it going tonight? What's the topic?

[DaveK] Hi guys.

[anneliese] I believe it's your sub tonight???

[camidon] Hey Dave

[anneliese] I'm in Williamsburg VA at the moment :)

[anneliese] Hi Dave!

[DaveK] Hi Chris, Anneliese

[anneliese] (This hotel has internet access)

[DaveK] My wife is in Hickery NC today

[DaveK] Business or pleasure?

[camidon] Really? Couldn't remember what's going on. Haven't been paying as much attention to the group as usual.

[anneliese] Where abouts in NC is that?

[anneliese] Business for the past week. Today we played.

[camidon] That's kind of cool Anneliese. Work trip?

[DaveK] Far west in NC. a bit east of Ashville

[anneliese] We had our annual IANDS conference in VA beach this past weekend.

[DaveK] Just in time to miss Ophilia (sp)

[anneliese] Had a gorgeous hotel room with balcony overlooking the beach...but at $10/day for internet...not!

[camidon] That's what I was thinking, Dave

[anneliese] Yep. I can't believe that there have been so many named storms this year.

[camidon] How's your writing going, dave

[DaveK] Seen the movie "Cave" yet? We went to see Stelth in the $2 theater. Not sure it was worth that.

[camidon] Haven't seen any movies lately in the theater. too busy.

[DaveK] I'm trying to get my energy up. I found a book - A Writer's Time. It has a good quote, "Talent is not rare. Dedication is."

[anneliese] Haven't seen either.

[camidon] don't know Stealth

[anneliese] I like that quote!

[DaveK] Best to keep it that way Chris.

[DaveK] I'm working on my dedication. I'm trying to write a few hours each day. Hard though.

[camidon] funny, Dave. That is a good quote. But how long does it take bashing your head against a wall before 1) getting published or 2) squishiing your brains out your ears?

[DaveK] I'm thinking of taping it to my monitor.

[camidon] That's good, Dave

[DaveK] You asked for it. Another posting on my monitor is the number of times books were submitted before accepted.

[camidon] lol, dave. go ahead

[DaveK] Hunt for Red October 12 times, A Time to Kill 12 times, The Fountainhead 12 times.

[anneliese] Sounds like a magic number.

[DaveK] How many times have you submitted your story Chris?

[camidon] which story?

[DaveK] I think I'm up to 4 or 5 for some of mine.

[DaveK] The book, Elevator at the End of the World

[anneliese] I was talking to someone last night (over a very nice glass of cab) who suggested that you should not finish the novel before shopping your idea.

[anneliese] I thought that was true for non-fiction, but didn't know that it applies to fiction as well.

[camidon] 8 queries, 1 agent, 2 contests.

[DaveK] I would finish it, wspecially a first one.

[camidon] that makes 11. Hmmm...

[DaveK] One short Chris.

[anneliese] She suggested doing the query, synopsis, sample chapter(s) and taking it to a convention.

[DaveK] I think I'll write - Hunt for a Fountain to Kill. That should only take 3 submissions.

[camidon] Most of my short stories I've submitted 8-12 times too.

[anneliese] LOL

[camidon] I suppose that tactic depends on if you write for the sake of writing or write to simply be published.

[camidon] Lol, Dave

[anneliese] I got my first emails from the CT nano coordinator this week.

[camidon] THat can be your Nano project.

[anneliese] True, CM. I think it was a tactic for selling books, not writin.

[anneliese] writing.

[DaveK] Actually I'm thinking of expanding one of my shorts. It could be in the Clancey family.

[DaveK] It would start with my Out of the Box story, where Jack falls out of the plane with a computer that thinks he is the enemy.

[camidon] Meaning in the Clancy Style?

[anneliese] So, CM, did you want to say something about your sink hole sub?

[camidon] I could see you writing really well in that style.

[anneliese] I'd love to see more with your Out of the Box story.

[DaveK] Clancey in the sense of a tecno thriller. Set in the future a bit more though.

[DaveK] Last about me - I have written more and plan on typing it in soon. Then I'll send to the group. Now Chris your tome.

[Elizabeth] hello there!

[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!

[DaveK] Hi Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth] sorry I'm late. Had a prior commitment.

[camidon] I think you should run with it. That's good stuff. NANO here you come (come on Anneliese, we'll drag Dave into by his virtual ear lobes! <scrape, drag, scrape, clatter--Dave now sprawled on the floor>

[camidon] Evening, Elizabeth.

[anneliese] You pull, I'll push!

[DaveK] It will be my first attempt at a novel length. I will have to outline.

[camidon] My Tome, maybe that's what I should name my first short story collection where each story is over 10k.

[camidon] It's a deal, Anneliese.

[Elizabeth] lol!

[anneliese] I think I've decide what I'm going to write about, but I have a lot of work to do to get things set up.

[DaveK] I hope to join in the nanowrmo (/) this time. Already told my wife not to talk to me in November.

[Elizabeth] What do you think? Should I go for NaNoWriMo this year and try for 0 out of 4? ;)

[camidon] From now on, all my submission over 10k will have a (T) in the title for; TOME

[anneliese] Yea, go for it!

[DaveK] Maybe we should do a forum or wiki support group for that.

[anneliese] LOL, CM!

[camidon] Absolutely, Elizabeth, keep up that record. Who knows? Maybe you'll break it!

[anneliese] If CM has anything to do with it, you'll break it for sure :)

[camidon] That's a good idea, Dave. or Both. Perhapa a chat in October specifically for NANO.

[DaveK] So Chris, what have you decided to cut.

[camidon] I can be very presistent with my demanding emails, Elizabeth (or is that annoying?)

[camidon] Dave, I like your idea about cutting the whole ChemLawn angle, chop out that subplot, chop out a lot of sections.

[anneliese] It might have been a Tome, but it was still a fast read...I'm not sure what you could cut.

[DaveK] As I said I was confused by the sulphric acid and canisters.

[camidon] Also, take one third of the complexity out of the "devices" which I do want to research and explain in a scietifically plausible and accurate way.

[camidon] That confusion, Dave, doesn't surprise.

[DaveK] Usually not a good idea unless you want a real "techy" story.

[anneliese] On the other hand...my environmental side just loved that ChemLawn was involved.

[camidon] Really, Anneliese? Did you skip every other paragraph or something ;)

[DaveK] Amazing how that creeps in. I have a review from my wife on one story which is a big question mark in one paragrapg.

[anneliese] (Wasn't too worried about the scientific plausibility and/or lack of explanation)

[DaveK] LOL Chris

[camidon] My environmental side did too, that's why it slippied into the story

[Elizabeth] I did like the ChemLawn angle.

[anneliese] I hope I didn't skip every other chapter...took a bit under an hour to read.

[anneliese] I mean paragraph.

[DaveK] We haven't got a single review for the three Sinkhole stories we put out.

[anneliese] (Still really exhausted from the conference)

[anneliese] Did you do a sinkhole chat last week?

[Elizabeth] I was wondering if those "fertilizer" spikes could be stuffed with explosives...but that's just my inner criminal coming out.

[camidon] That's good to know, Anneliesse, that you weren't too worried about the plausibility. IT's really NOT suppose to be that plausible.

[Elizabeth] Dave, I think I got a critique from Bob. Do you want me to forward it to you?

[DaveK] No. Just Elizabeth and I. We just gabbed.

[Elizabeth] What Dave said.

[camidon] Lol, Anneliese, thanks for spending that time. Actually, thank you all of you, as I know this was a, in Dave's words, a TOME.

[DaveK] Yes please send it E.

[DaveK] Maybe expand it to a novella

[camidon] It's on my list if things to do, Dave.

[camidon] I did read all of them, though I was rather obsessed with my own sinkhole creation at the time.

[anneliese] When you have the Africa angle, how much farther *out* is the ChemLawn angle anyway?

[Elizabeth] Just forwarded it to Dave and Anneliese.

[anneliese] Thanks.

[Elizabeth] I did like the idea of returning Florida to Morocco. It's so deranged.

[Elizabeth] Scientifically accurate, perhaps, but so deranged in every other aspect.

[camidon] Not that far out really, Anneliese. But I just got to cut something, don't I?

[DaveK] But if it is "out there" then you have to make it humorous or it doesn't work.

[anneliese] Seriously, I can see this story being a bit longer.

[camidon] Well said, Elizabeth. Oh, were you talking about my story? I though you might have meant me...

[anneliese] True, Elizabeth. I'm partial to *deranged*

[Elizabeth] the story, CM, of course. :)

[camidon] ;)

[Elizabeth] And Rene, obviously, has had a rather nasty divorce from reality.

[camidon] How so, longer?

[DaveK] I wouldn't use the word "serious" for any of these stories.

[anneliese] I think you could play up the threats, the suspense.

[camidon] Returning Florida to Africa just makes me laugh. Damn those geologic punchlines.

[Elizabeth] Maybe if we had more of Rene's backstory. What on earth made him decide to sink the whole state of Florida?

[DaveK] Are there any stories in the que? Terri or Juanita?

[camidon] Hmm.. That's a good questions, Elizabeth. Being deranged comes to mind, but that doesn't really explain anything.

[Elizabeth] I have a chapter each from Terri and Juanita...Anneliese, who's next in the queue?

[anneliese] I wanted to see Rene and Rosevelt doing more...or at least worrying and plotting...as they realize the cavers are on to them.

[Elizabeth] Yeah, the whole relationship between Rene and Roosevelt could be amplified.

[camidon] I definitely could envision a scene with Rene experiencing some weird trauma that causes this derangement. What that scene would be, I don't yet have an idea. So, any ideas?

[Elizabeth] And their anxiety over bringing their scheme to fruition.

[DaveK] OK Chris, it's your nanowrimo idea

[anneliese] Sorry. Until I get back home, I'm not sure who is in the queue right now.

[Elizabeth] If you could let me know tomorrow, Anneliese, I'd appreciate it. Lately my short-term memory is shot.

[anneliese] He could have an epiphiny when pumping is *natural spring water* causes a sinkhole.

[camidon] <tangent> oh, and Anneliese, do add my name for another. I've got a honest to goodness GenE story coming out, and by golly this one is serious and killer to write.

[anneliese] I probably won't get back before Wednesday...let me see what's in my email archives.

[camidon] Huh, Dave? What's my nanowrimo idea?

[DaveK] Expanding Sinkhole to a novel.

[Elizabeth] Perhaps a traumatic Disney or Universal Studios experience. :::evil grin:::

[anneliese] All I can remember right now, is that Juanita has been getting one spot/month, usually the 3rd or 4th week.

[anneliese] LOL Elizabeth!

[camidon] Nooooo... I don't think I have the stomach for expanding this into a novel. It's just too damn silly and absurd.

[anneliese] I think 12-15K might be a good length.

[camidon] That's interesting, Elizabeth. I suppose I can take another potshot at a big corporation! :)

[DaveK] By my records Terri had 8-15 and Juanita had 8-22

[Elizabeth] There are all sorts of things not to like about Florida...

[Elizabeth] which one would set Rene off?

[camidon] I suppose I could try a couple versions of this, one longer, on drastically cut. That might be an interesting idea.

[camidon] Just thought of a better mechanism for sinkhole creation

[camidon] ...drain down the undergound aquifers with Rene's bottle water industry. As groundwater levels lower, rocks lose their bouyancy support and come crashing down. Hmmm. That would cut out all the capsule crap... though insert something else.

[anneliese] Well????

[anneliese] It sort of makes more sense. Otherwise, I'd make Rene a lawn care mogul.

[anneliese] Who hates grass.

[camidon] Lol

[Elizabeth] or a lover of native, uh, weeds.

[anneliese] I like the capsules...gives everyone a reason to go caving.

[camidon] I bet Rene likes African Violets, maybe I should put some in his bottled water plant.

[anneliese] I KNOW he does :D

[DaveK] I sugested nanotechnology or bioengineered rock living bacteria.

[Elizabeth] I like the bottled water idea too...he's trying to do something profitable and "natural", and causes even more damage.

[camidon] Mmmm. Caving.

[Elizabeth] or what if he and Roosevelt are trying to create more "lakes" for, say, real estate development?

[camidon] Yeah, i thought about that, Dave. I just can't decide how far, or whether I should, take this more scifi.

[Elizabeth] Turn boring marshes and aquifers into more tourist attractions?

[Elizabeth] Or react against the people who do such things?

[camidon] Rock eating bacteria certainly exists.

[DaveK] Gene engineer the bacteria to create the bottled water sources

[camidon] ...and probably could be bioengineered for actually rock destruction. Hmmm.

[camidon] Lots to think about.

[camidon] One more question for y'all. Characters: Too many? Were some of them funny?

[DaveK] A bit too many for a standard short.

[camidon] Were the caver scenes funny? (okay, two questions)

[anneliese] The Rene/Rosevelt relationship was my favorite, but I mostly enjoyed Julie's *sizing* everyone up.

[camidon] because by golly most of that strangeness really exists.

[camidon] Good to know, Anneliese.

[Elizabeth] I loved the caver scenes. Some very funny stuff, but for a short you might have to lose a character or two.

[anneliese] The caver scenes felt very realistic to me.

[camidon] Okay, good thoughts, good thoughts.

[camidon] Thanks again for reading this beast. I enjoyed the feedback, especially since I hadn't remembered this was my chat.