Chat log for April 4, 2006

[03/04 20:45] *** acmfox has left the chatbox*** DaveK has left the chatbox
[03/04 20:45] *** acmfox has left the chatbox
[03/04 20:46] *** DaveK has joined the chatbox
[03/04 20:58] *** camidon has joined the chatbox
[03/04 20:59] Evening, Dave
[03/04 21:00] *** acmfox has joined the chatbox
[03/04 21:00] Hi Dave!
[03/04 21:00] Hi CM!
[03/04 21:00] Evening, Anneliese
[03/04 21:01] Dave is :smt015
[03/04 21:01] Did you have a good week?
[03/04 21:01] Hi guys, I was just reading the monthy update
[03/04 21:01] LOL! I like that one Laughing out loud
[03/04 21:02] I already got an email from Juanita.
[03/04 21:03] HI Dave!
[03/04 21:03] Nothing to complain about
[03/04 21:03] Nice update, Anneliese. Yay, at least there was A response.
[03/04 21:03] Hi Chris, how is the business going
[03/04 21:03] I hope that Juanita is staying in the group
[03/04 21:04] That's strange. I wrote the I hope line before the Hi Chris line
[03/04 21:04] Yes Juanita is staying in the group. She's taking a class right now so is too busy to submit anything.
[03/04 21:05] Good, I hope we get a response from Bogwitch too.
[03/04 21:06] The chat room has a time delay to improve server performance.
[03/04 21:06] I thought Bogwitch was totally gone?
[03/04 21:06] She was stellar though.
[03/04 21:06] She's still on the distribution list.
[03/04 21:07] Her son was in an accident and that took a lot of time.
[03/04 21:09] well that's cool, I mean her being on the list, not the accident--seems as there's a lot of that type tragedy hitting those in the group, alas.
[03/04 21:09] I think she wants to participate again when her life is more settled.
[03/04 21:09] and maybe when the group is more active, alas. Hard to keep things going when only a few are scraping.
[03/04 21:10] Yes, with Elizabeth's parents still having trouble.
[03/04 21:11] I'm going to go to some CT writers meetings later this month. Perhaps I'll find a few SF writers who are interested.
[03/04 21:11] And Bob was having a hard time a while back--it's all in his recent submissions...
[03/04 21:12] I did read you story, Chris, I haven't worked on a critique just yet.
[03/04 21:12] Yes, I read it also, but I haven't been able to form much of an opinion yet.
[03/04 21:12] Do you have anything you'd like to ask us about it?
[03/04 21:12] Yay!
[03/04 21:13] I'm sure I can think of a few things.
[03/04 21:13] Bang, bang
[03/04 21:14] :smt090
[03/04 21:15] Um, well, any thoughts of title prefereces, or other title ideas?
[03/04 21:15] Actually, I was just trying to say "shoot!"
[03/04 21:15] lol
[03/04 21:15] I think I prefer Mercury Rising
[03/04 21:16] You asked about the title, Mercury Rising was a movie a few years back.
[03/04 21:16] No wonder I thought it sounded familiar Smiling
[03/04 21:18] Yeah, I knew that. It's too bad.
[03/04 21:18] A bad movie at that
[03/04 21:18] Bob suggested Veneration Gap. Any opinions?
[03/04 21:18] I wouldn't worry about that.
[03/04 21:19] It wasn't bad. About an autistic boy who could crack some code.
[03/04 21:19] How about Bird of Paradise?
[03/04 21:19] Or Birds of Paradise?
[03/04 21:19] WIngs of Mercury
[03/04 21:20] If you used Central Park as more of a metaphore, you could build a title around that.
[03/04 21:20] What I have trouble with is that I know the background of the stroy but I can't decide if you give enough for an unknowing reader.
[03/04 21:21] Really? I thought it had Bruce Willis and was some silly action flick--perhaps I'm confused
[03/04 21:22] Ah, there's the rub, Dave. How much backstory.
[03/04 21:22] I think there could be a bit more backstory, but it also depends on how the story is used.
[03/04 21:22] It was Bruce WIllis, and a bit of action, but the plot was at least reasonable.
[03/04 21:23] I was more bothered by the council story. It seemed to add a lot of bulk, but not much contribution.
[03/04 21:23] How much do I elaborate on the setting? Flesh it out? I tend to cut out any extraneous details if they don't somehow push the story forward. This is not how many scifi writers work, especially the Hard scifi crowd--Kim Stanley Robinson--to whom I say Ucky
[03/04 21:24] Even at 7K, I think there are too many characters.
[03/04 21:24] Okay, good, Anneliese. I was kind of waiting for comments about the 3 POV's.
[03/04 21:24] If this was part of a GenE anthology, I don't think much back story would be necessary.
[03/04 21:25] The council stuff adds bulk no doubt, but that was my attempt to show a little more of the ship functions.
[03/04 21:25] In a SF mag, you might need some introductory notes.
[03/04 21:25] I don't recall you saying that it is ageneration ship anywhere. That one fact provides a lot of back story
[03/04 21:25] The council story was a completely different story; one I'd like to know more about, but probably not in this context.
[03/04 21:25] I'm definitely not a fan of introductory notes. I'm a firm believe a story needs to stand on itself.
[03/04 21:26] It deserves its own short.
[03/04 21:26] That first POV change even with the # caused me a lot of confusion.
[03/04 21:26] I never directly state, this is a generation ship, but I try to imply it by the setting details I do give, and the evolution things.
[03/04 21:27] I kind of agree with Dave, probably not more than a sentence or two would supply enough back information.
[03/04 21:27] Why not say that it is a generation ship?
[03/04 21:27] I think the evolution details are very good. Also, there was the barest hint that the scientific community...
[03/04 21:27] was willing to tell more, but being squashed.
[03/04 21:28] If you want to keep some mystery you can keep the fact that the genetic changes are intended rather then accidental.
[03/04 21:28] I liked that. It promised more conflict than the wing abortions.
[03/04 21:28] My reasoning for not saying it was this: would the every day people on the ship think of their situation frequetnly? Would they think about the fact they are on a generation ship? In the beginning, certainly, but centuries, eons out, i don't think so.
[03/04 21:29] I agree with you, CM. I think all these folks would worry about is their day-to-day existence.
[03/04 21:29] Heck, we could be on a generational ship now and not know it!
[03/04 21:29] But you have to inform the reader.
[03/04 21:29] I suppose in some ways we are.
[03/04 21:30] Unless the point of the story is the discovery of that fact by one of the characters.
[03/04 21:30] True, Dave. Somehow, that setting must be clear, even if I don't want to come out and say it.
[03/04 21:30] New age philosopy would indicate that to some...which may be a way to incorporate some sense of a generational ship into your back story.
[03/04 21:30] and that's not the point of this story.
[03/04 21:31] Plus, that story (of the ship's residents not knowing thier mission) has been done.
[03/04 21:32] Clarke or Asimov and maybe even Star Trek
[03/04 21:32] I'm thinking of another, but can't remember who.
[03/04 21:33] Heinlein??
[03/04 21:33] Maybe Pohl?
[03/04 21:34] I do think for the purpose of this story, most just don't care where they are--they're living there lives--the environment is comfortable enough that they're not confronted too much by the hard realites of space, and when they are, it's like a tornado siren for those in the midwetst.
[03/04 21:34] Although Heinlein, Clark and Asimov all touched upon the subject.
[03/04 21:34] Maybe. Which brings up a question - If someone writes a story before yu are born are you expected to know about it?
[03/04 21:34] I thought that touch was nice. "Everybody to the shelters, now!"
[03/04 21:35] No, Dave. I don't think so. But your story still should contribute some insight that is original, nevertheless.
[03/04 21:35] I got technical on that. How do they know a gamma burst is coming and why isn't the entire ship shielded?
[03/04 21:36] Even if you are writing a story that was treated 20 years ago, we are now in a different place, and our treatment should be different.
[03/04 21:36] Scientific American had an article about shielding a month or two ago.
[03/04 21:37] Would there be such a thing as a gamma burst in deep space, far, far from any star or other energy source?
[03/04 21:37] Those are the nits that i'm glad you point out, Dave.
[03/04 21:38] My thought was: there ship is an asteroid--a large one, too expensive to shield the entire inside complex.
[03/04 21:38] Wouldn't the mass of the asteroid shield the interior?
[03/04 21:38] Either too expensive, or not enough material.
[03/04 21:39] I believe so--they;re radiation waves.
[03/04 21:39] If I remember the SA article the earth's atmosphere and the magnetic field shields us.
[03/04 21:39] Not from gamma radiation, I don't believe Dave.
[03/04 21:39] It goes through almost anything.
[03/04 21:39] I did read up on it a little when I decided to use it.
[03/04 21:40] Here was my thought: "ense materials are needed for shielding from gamma radiation. "
[03/04 21:41] I think most of the problem in the solar system comes from the sun. In intersteller space I don't know if gamma ray bursters would be strong enough to cause problems
[03/04 21:41] that' dense--so why would they shield the entire ship for rare events when they could do it more cost effectively in small areas?
[03/04 21:42] So why don't we have the problem here on earth? The equivenelt mass of rock to the atmosphere can't be very much.
[03/04 21:43] But if they are travelling near a sun that is very active that may explain the problem
[03/04 21:43] From my understanding, if a serious gamma radiation wave, does hit, the Earth will be fried.
[03/04 21:44] But it hasn't happened in the last 65 million years or more so why now?
[03/04 21:45] The only reason I can see for traveling near any solar system other than the destination would be to pick up raw materials.
[03/04 21:45] Have to think in vast time frames--they're very rare events.
[03/04 21:45] Check this out: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/gamma_990930.html
[03/04 21:45] Or a gravity sling shot effect.
[03/04 21:46] For the space ship to have a recognized drill, the event should have a higher probability, IMO.
[03/04 21:48] That, I don't agree with Anneliese. Since it's something that would wipe out an entire ship in one fell swoop, It's something that SHOULD be drilled--may the drills fade as time goes on, but... Also, for this story, the gamma radiation burst warning was a fake anyway.
[03/04 21:49] And Dave, it's not that it has happed, gamma ray bursts haven't happened, they just haven't happened in our little galactic corner.
[03/04 21:49] I agree that the blast would wipe out the ship, but I wonder if it is a statistically significant probable event.
[03/04 21:49] I agree with Chris the probability of a catastrophic accident doesn't have to be high to warrent a drill.
[03/04 21:51] That "in our corner" is a good point.
[03/04 21:51] Here's another interesting article: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/gammaray_bursts_010522-1...
[03/04 21:52] These are things that should go in the WIKI site.
[03/04 21:52] Perhaps eventually.
[03/04 21:52] I rather enjoy talking about stellar destructive tendencies--puts our own petty planetary squabbles a little more in perspective.
[03/04 21:53] At least include the links in our reference section.
[03/04 21:54] Okay, enough about gamma bursts. Do you think I should cut out Larson's Pov, the council pov?
[03/04 21:54] If you have the ship passing a possible gamma ray source that would satisfy my anal objections.
[03/04 21:54] Is the story truly only about Zink and Haven? I debated taking him out early in the writing, but I couldn't convince myself he wasn't necesarry.
[03/04 21:55] I'll have the read the story again with that in mind, but I was confused by the whole thing.
[03/04 21:55] So noted, Dave. And I greatly appreciate those anal objections--those objections are how stories are made better.
[03/04 21:55] He gives an interesting perspective, but is under utilized.
[03/04 21:55] I don't normally use multiple POV's
[03/04 21:56] The story is really about Haven, as I read it.
[03/04 21:56] Oh yeah, Zink, I was confused by that.
[03/04 21:56] I think you could write the entire story from Zinks POV and have a powerful story.
[03/04 21:57] There is true conflict with him. Haven is really just a catalyst.
[03/04 21:57] (although she is the best realized character in the story)
[03/04 21:58] There's an intriquing idea.
[03/04 21:58] BRB
[03/04 21:59] Yes, Haven created this story, but Zink is the main character to undergo a change--one that I don't think is quite believable yet, imo
[03/04 21:59] Haven is a catalyst--now that you put it that way, that makes perfect sense.
[03/04 22:00] I agree. Not quite believable. But you could have real fun with him.
[03/04 22:00] For example, while he's hacking off wings, I get the sense that he's not completely sincere to himself in his beliefs.
[03/04 22:01] The way he looks at the wing bulges of others is almost sexual.
[03/04 22:01] Yeah, Zink's a juicy character--I did have fun writing him--actually, in the first draft, there was much more of him, but it didn't add anything--it was all "revenge" or "protest" planning that got cut.
[03/04 22:01] I rather liked that he set in motion events the details of which even he was not aware.
[03/04 22:02] I think you could draw him as an even more conflicted character.
[03/04 22:02] oh, good, I like that too--if seems very Human
[03/04 22:02] For example, while he is a successful surgeon, he could be the one arrested in the sting operation.
[03/04 22:02] Rather than going for the surgery himself.
[03/04 22:03] It's like ZInk's gay and an evangelical Christian at the same time--that's the model
[03/04 22:03] The fact that he still has wings... that they were not clipped when he was a youth, yea, exactly.
[03/04 22:04] I was going to say a closet homosexual, but rather in reverse.
[03/04 22:04] You don't think he wouldn't eventually submit and try to get his wings cutoff?
[03/04 22:04] I think he likes the idea of taking the wings off others while keeping his own.
[03/04 22:05] I didn't get the point of cutting off the wings.
[03/04 22:05] In my mind, Zink knows he shouldn't hate wings, nearly all people don't, yet he does--thus he's willing to desecrate others, but not himself.
[03/04 22:05] There's a more than a little perversity about him.
[03/04 22:05] It's like they are trying to change themselves but not letting themselves change
[03/04 22:05] Yes, exactly.
[03/04 22:05] What I didn't get was why more folks weren't trying to fly.
[03/04 22:06] It makes him feel powerful in his own small way
[03/04 22:06] He could be picking and choosing his victims.
[03/04 22:06] Yeah, Anneliese, that was a thought--to have a scene with the playground children trying to fly--it probably should be in there, but it got cut for time.
[03/04 22:07] Perhaps I could simply rewrite the playground scene a little.
[03/04 22:08] I can see that children, especially would be resentful and jealous of the difference that allowed Haven's wings to work, while theirs were non-functional.
[03/04 22:08] I didn't want to make him evil--I don't think Zink cuts off wings like a serial killer--he cuts off wings off those who come to him, or whose parents force their kids. I debated the serial killer angle, but decided against it.
[03/04 22:08] Though, now as I recall, I did hint a serial killer running amok in one council scene.
[03/04 22:08] Thar serial killer viewpoint would make more sense to me.
[03/04 22:09] I don't think there has to be any serial killer aspect, although I can see flightless individuals acting that way.
[03/04 22:09] but, imo, that's been done to death, and didn't want to rehash old serial killing plots.
[03/04 22:09] Sort of like the serial killer who hires prostitutes then kills them for being immoral.
[03/04 22:09] I think Zink is just greedy. He got into this business without thinking about it.
[03/04 22:10] Anneliese, I forget, but you can save this chat right?
[03/04 22:10]
[03/04 22:10] WHy would anyone want to cut off their wings?
[03/04 22:10] As he gets older, he begins to see his hypocracy... he has wings, but is savior to the wannabe wingless.
[03/04 22:10] I think I can save this chat.
[03/04 22:11] Why would anyone slash a tongue to make it forked?
[03/04 22:11] (I hope so! It's very lively and useful! Plus I want to save those links I copied and pasted--closed them by accident)
[03/04 22:12] I don't know that answer either.
[03/04 22:12] Why would anyone cut? People always do things that others don't understand
[03/04 22:12] I guess I wandered why folks wore shirts over their wings. That has to be uncomfortable.
[03/04 22:12] I mean wondered.
[03/04 22:12] It's what produces conflict on a global scale
[03/04 22:12] (And cutting makes PERFECT sense)
[03/04 22:13] Hmm.. Yeah, that was a point not really dealt with, Anneliese.
[03/04 22:13] You don't necessarily need to deal with it.
[03/04 22:13] I guess I envisioned them able to furl their wings on their back without creating much difference--it's probably not explained well enough.
[03/04 22:14] Shirts are great equalizers. Hides the puny wings from the full-scale flight version.
[03/04 22:14] Lol!
[03/04 22:14] Now that would certainly exist: Wing envy!
[03/04 22:14] Exactly, LOL!
[03/04 22:14] I wonder if bird have that--plumage does help attract a mate doesn't it!?
[03/04 22:15] It surely does. I was about to ask... are these wings feathered?
[03/04 22:15] Good question
[03/04 22:15] Not in my mind.
[03/04 22:16] Natural extensions of skin and bone
[03/04 22:16] However, over time, its quite possible feathers could develop, as it did in our planets evolutionary history.
[03/04 22:16] Not in mammels
[03/04 22:16] Would make for an interesting follow-up tale many eons in the future.
[03/04 22:17] Is this a natural evolution or genetic engineering?
[03/04 22:18] To beat a supposedly dead horse, maybe they kept the shielding low to facilitate mutaions
[03/04 22:18] Feathers could certainly be developed. I'm not sure, but I think they are important for flight.
[03/04 22:18] Both.
[03/04 22:18] It's a "natural" things that's being shaped very, very slowly over the eons to create desire characteristics, imo.
[03/04 22:19] By changing the environment the people live in, we can indirectly change their evolution over time.
[03/04 22:19] --not that this is stated in the story.
[03/04 22:20] And I don't think you have to state it, explicitely.
[03/04 22:20] In fact, I muddle it in the story--the basic nonscience person doesn't really know whether its natural or engineered--there are people who think both and clash-thus, why I created the Wingless.
[03/04 22:20] I think it has to be engineered in part.
[03/04 22:20] Oh, what a juicy debate.
[03/04 22:20] agreed, Dave
[03/04 22:21] I think the Wingless should be a more openly political group. Rather like skinheads.
[03/04 22:21] It's a life style choice. After all, what good are wings when they don't allow us to fly?
[03/04 22:21] However, though that's what's really happening in this version of the GenE world, it doesn't mean people KNOW that, at least, not anymore. Perhaps at the beginning they did.
[03/04 22:23] This may be too complicated for a short story.
[03/04 22:23] Also, in my view, the wings develop so slowly, over hundreds and hundreds of generations, that there development doesn't overtly cause disgust because the change is so slow--it's only later, when the difference is fully developed are there problems--think skin color as one blatant example.
[03/04 22:23] Ah, yes, Dave, that's what's fried my brain!
[03/04 22:23] One more thing--it is getting late:
[03/04 22:24] Though this story IS set in a GenE world, I don't believe I'm setting up the ultimate rules, ideas, etc. This is just one attempt, like Cutting Time, to produce something in the GenE environment, based on a few of the details we did discuss.
[03/04 22:24] I'm thinking of a recent Niven story about a ship that is trying to get to a particular star but has to detour to another for repairs.
[03/04 22:24] Too true.
[03/04 22:24] It takes place over several generations.
[03/04 22:25] Yes, I would like to get back to the GenE discussions again, and finalize the rules... if we are going to.
[03/04 22:25] What I'm very happy about, is this story DID create fantastic discussion between the 3 of us. That means there is meat here, even if it needs to be cooked a little more!
[03/04 22:26] To do this in a short I think you need a paragraph or two in italics to explain the background
[03/04 22:26] And I am definately going to try to place this chat in the logs.
[03/04 22:26] I'm not certain we will ever fully finalize the rules, but I'm willing to keep banging away.
[03/04 22:27] Perhaps we can set-up another GenE chat, one where an email is sent to the group about it.
[03/04 22:27] I don't think we need to... at least not to get started cooking stories.
[03/04 22:27] You only need rules on earth. After the ships leave they make their own rules.
[03/04 22:27] I want to get a little more work done then try shopping a proposal around.
[03/04 22:27] Very true, Dave.
[03/04 22:27] I think that's a good idea, CM.
[03/04 22:28] You can always just write it, Anneliese! I;m eager to see where others go with this.
[03/04 22:28] Oh, I just might do that. I have some ideas simmering in the back recesses of my brain.
[03/04 22:28] Ijust had a thought as to why these ships have to be so slow. Maybe there is enough matter between stars, even anti matter that fast (near light speed) is impossible.
[03/04 22:29] They're on a very slow simmer, however Sad
[03/04 22:29] Then, it's set, we'll plan another GenE chat, and even if no one else shows the three of us can bang away at this some more--and perhaps that'll be a good time to start reinvesting time in the WIKI.
[03/04 22:29] Do you want to have the chat sooner, like sometime this month, or later?
[03/04 22:30] Add it to the Wiki!
[03/04 22:30] Oh, and Dave, what happened to the Catch 22 discussion?
[03/04 22:30] Sooner is better, especially if no one is in the queue
[03/04 22:30] I was hoping someone else would step in. But I guess not.
[03/04 22:31] Oh, and Dave, what happened with Vurt?
[03/04 22:31] We'll have to address this later, next chat, or on the boards. It's getting late!
[03/04 22:31] I can always send out Chapter 4 of Chrysalis.
[03/04 22:31] I read the first 100 pages then stopped. It was all the same to me.
[03/04 22:31] Go for it, Anneliese. Really. I'd love to read more!
[03/04 22:31] Yes send out more.
[03/04 22:31] Doesn't surprise me. Didn't seem your style at all.
[03/04 22:32] DOes anything happen?
[03/04 22:32] Well, good night for now, guys. It's been great chatting with you!
[03/04 22:32] Now I can finally say some put the book down! Ha. Your the first.
[03/04 22:32] gnight, Anneliese. Thanks for the wonderful discussion.
[03/04 22:32] Bye. Next week.
[03/04 22:33] Yes, it does--but in the beginning, your mostly trapped in this crazy world that makes no sense.
[03/04 22:33] And when things happen, it only makes things more strange.
[03/04 22:33] Maybe I'll try to read the last 100 pages
[03/04 22:33] But in the end, everything does relate perfectly, which is why I love the book so much.
[03/04 22:33] I'm shutting up now.
[03/04 22:33] really.
[03/04 22:33] I'm not typing another word.
[03/04 22:34] *** acmfox has left the chatbox
[03/04 22:34] Bye
[03/04 22:34] Gnight Dave, this was fun.