SFWW Chats

[DaveK] Is anyone familiar with Niven's Magic universe?

[anneliese] Sorry, no.

[Elizabeth] Slightly. I haven't read any of it in a long time.

[anneliese] At least I don't think so.

[DaveK] "The Magic Goes Away" was the major book.

[camidon] not ready it, but somewhat familiar

[DaveK] It was back in the early 80s and done as a comment on declining resources. Magic is based on mana and it is a non renewable resource, like oil.

[camidon] ugh. that should be "read"

[DaveK] I decided to see if I could come up with another explination for the decline. And I parodied a bucnh of scientific ideas.

[anneliese] I liked your handling of the *paper*...did wish you included the proper citations though :)

[DaveK] It's not really a story, no characters or such.

[camidon] Here's my quick thoughts for you: 1) It's funny. 2) the structure was intriguing, though I would have preferred a scientific journal type format rather than a "talk", 3) The Q and A at the end was very awkward.

[DaveK] By citations do you mean Niven's books?

[Elizabeth] Were you intending a parody of, say, ID, with the serious and scholarly discussion of something that's really pretty ridiculous (the notion that our solar system is the entire universe)?

[anneliese] No. I would have made up citations.

[DaveK] I did it as a talk because I didn't think they would have publications back then.

[DaveK] Yeah, the Q&A is poor, I'll probably cut that.

[Elizabeth] The sort of footnotes you find all over, say, a Scientific American article or something in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

[camidon] Back when? I don't recall any time reference given.

[DaveK] I could make up footnotes. Could be fun. I'll have to see if I come up with good ones.

[DaveK] Back then, is back in the age of magic.

[DaveK] E, what is "ID"?

[Elizabeth] Intelligent Design. Stealth creationism, if you ask me.

[camidon] I like the idea of footnotes, as it's more "paper" like. I thought this very well could be taking place "today" or around this time, perhaps in a different dimension/parralel universe/etc

[DaveK] Oh, Intelligent Design.

[DaveK] No, I started this before that came up.

[Elizabeth] I got the impression of a very sophisticated, modern group of researchers seriously discussing a downright medieval idea, and taking that way too seriously.

[Elizabeth] Not even considering the alternative explanations.

[camidon] And this "age of magic" is from Niven, or are you referring to the Dark Ages?

[anneliese] When I read the Questions at the end, it looked to me like a proposal submission (need objectives, test questions, etc for CEU)

[camidon] If it's Niven, why couldn't there be schorlarly papers?

[anneliese] That would be another route.

[DaveK] From Niven. I thnk he postulates 10,000 years ago.

[camidon] Who is to say there wasn't a "Journal of Sorcery" Or a "Scientific Sorcerer"?

[Elizabeth] Reminded me of some of the alchemists' discussions, or the Dark Ages clerics trying to find out the age of the earth.

[Elizabeth] "Modern Magician?"

[DaveK] The questions were supposed to be - we're open minded and think the previous people don't consider new ideas. ANd by the way, we won't consider these other ideas.

[anneliese] Annals of the Arcane Society

[Elizabeth] Popular Alchemy.

[camidon] I think you could easily incorporate those QandA's into a "paper" format.

[Elizabeth] The Thaumaturgical Journals.

[DaveK] Paper's don't usually have Q&A.

[DaveK] Sometimes a rebuttal from the contrary author.

[DaveK] And wou't it be cool if Niven rebutted by story.

[DaveK] my story

[camidon] My last thought would be to make this even more scietifc paper-like. Go for the exact layout of a scientific journal today with the abstract, introduction, methodoloy, results, discussion, and finally the conclusion.

[camidon] About the QandA, I meant include that material in a somewher in a "scientific paper" layout, not as a QandA section--that info should be easy to incorporate into another "paper" form.

[Elizabeth] The more similar this is to a scholarly scientific paper, the funnier it will be.

[anneliese] As a scientific paper, the body is pretty short, plenty of room to expand, and incorporate your questions into the methodology.

[camidon] Yes, exctly, Anneliese. Thanks for clarifying my jumble of text.

[anneliese] (actually, I liked your jumble) :)

[DaveK] Move the questions to the body, good idea.

[camidon] Unfortunately, I can't stick around tonight. Dave, I'll get you a critique eventually

[camidon] Thanks, Anneliese. :) Glad someone does!

[DaveK] Thanks CM

[camidon] Have a good week all.

[Elizabeth] thanks CM, and have a good night!

[anneliese] Glad you could make it.

[DaveK] I rewrote my stock broker story as more of a story. Even my wife understood it , until the end.

[Elizabeth] lol Dave! My husband refuses to read my writing.

[Elizabeth] Says he doesn't think I'd take criticism properly, coming from him.

[anneliese] Same here. I've used up all local resources long ago.

[DaveK] I use her for punctuation and spelling mostly.

[Elizabeth] He has given copies of my stuff to his friends...they all seem to enjoy it.

[DaveK] I wrote a horror story, which she called cute.

[DaveK] The concenses is to make it more scientific paper like.

[Elizabeth] I think that will highlight the irony, to make it "read" like a scientific paper.

[anneliese] Especially if you work a methodology into it.

[anneliese] Of course, that could be challenging.

[DaveK] What do you mean by - methodology?

[anneliese] Well, if you are going to prove something, or disprove it, you have to follow a methodology to make your point.

[anneliese] A way to disprove the existing thesis, or support your own.

[Elizabeth] Perhaps there's a magical method, like the scientific method.

[DaveK] I pointed out one or two problems with the old theory - killing people creates mana

[Elizabeth] Which I liked.

[DaveK] And mana decreasing in areas where it is not used by people.

[Elizabeth] Might also be interesting to follow the thread of "the gods were once closer to us..."

[anneliese] You actually noted several ways of creating mana, worship being another.

[DaveK] How to prove my own theory -- how to do that?

[anneliese] ...which is another place for a citation. Someone must have proved/documented this in another paper.

[DaveK] This was supposed to be applying the scientific method to magic.

[DaveK] I cite that as "well known" information.

[Elizabeth] Or your author could summarize the "well-known" proof by a famous sorceror.

[anneliese] (Looking at your paper again.)

[Elizabeth] Kind of like a physics prof summarizing Newton's Laws as a lead-in to his discussion.

[Elizabeth] Yeah, I know, bad example...physics wasn't my best subject. ;)

[DaveK] Thought I did that. A susual I was probably too brief.

[anneliese] I think, also, that your conclusion isn't truely the conclusion, but more of your hypothesis.

[anneliese] It seems to throw out new ideas not previously discussed in the paper.

[DaveK] Right, more of a proposal for further work.

[Elizabeth] <--agrees w/Anneliese. I would have liked a firmer conclusion.

[Elizabeth] Even more controversy attached to it.

[DaveK] ANd this is why we have critiques.

[anneliese] In essence, you seem to say that by leaving the earth and living on other planets, mana can be created.

[DaveK] Thanks for all the input.

[anneliese] Which is really great!

[anneliese] I think you should run with this one some more. It has potential.

[DaveK] I don't have a good source for new mana. I'll need that.

[DaveK] I'm thinking of the sun, an obvious source of energy of all kinds.

[Elizabeth] A good idea. Can light (sunlight, moonlight) be harnessed?

[Elizabeth] Or harvested by a sufficiently intrepid mage?

[anneliese] I'm thinking of more subtle energies.

[DaveK] Sun worship, I can work with that.

[anneliese] Tons of magicks are based on moon beams. Perhaps the moon serves a lens for collecting and focusing solar magic rays.

[DaveK] Or the current vogue - dark energy- only comes out at night.

[Elizabeth] Tidal magic, too.

[anneliese] Which might relate to why it was necessary to try to bring the moon closer.

[Elizabeth] I hope this is helpful, Dave..I like the idea, and your presentation.

[DaveK] I had thought of orbiting mana collectors.

[anneliese] Did your researchers look into mana levels around monasteries?

[Elizabeth] (I'm going to have to sign off soon...restless doggy)

[Elizabeth] Oooh. I like the orbiting mana collector idea.

[Elizabeth] What about large public gatherings? Concerts and such?

[anneliese] I may miss the next two Mondays. I'll be in Virginia Beach for the conference.

[DaveK] Did you like the reference to our ancestors digging in the ground for energy.

[Elizabeth] People might not worship in large numbers any more, but a large gathering of people for a single purpose might still be a decent source of mana.

[anneliese] Yes. Very much so.

[Elizabeth] Caught that reference, and got a chuckle out of it.

[Elizabeth] what conference, Anneliese?

[anneliese] IANDS. The association I manage.

[Elizabeth] Good luck with that. Hope you have fun!

[Elizabeth] Virginia Beach should be nice.

[anneliese] It's on the beach. That has to count for something!

[DaveK] Thanks for your help. Pray for no hurricanes.

[Elizabeth] We aren't going anywhere for Labor Day, so I should be around for the chat (unless I forget).

[Elizabeth] Yes. No more hurricanes!

[anneliese] Yep. Don't need hurricanes.

[anneliese] We'll be driving to VA on Labor Day.

[DaveK] I'll be here. Wife is going out of town to visit relatives.

[Elizabeth] it was great talking to both of you...good night!

[anneliese] Nighters!

[DaveK] Thanks again, Anneliese, are you going to post this?

[anneliese] I was just about to.

[DaveK] Good, I'll have to review it for pointers.

[DaveK] Bye.

[anneliese] Hi CM!

[camidon] good evening

[anneliese] Is your summer winding down?

[anneliese] Hi Dave!

[DaveK] Hi guys

[camidon] still going strong here in MI

[Elizabeth] hi guys!

[camidon] I miss Mountain Time

[DaveK] Hi Elizabeth

[Elizabeth] summer's going way too strong here. 101 degrees this afternoon.

[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!

[camidon] Evening, dave, Elizabeth

[anneliese] Yuck! We were able to turn off the ac tonight.

[DaveK] We hit about 84 her in FC

[Elizabeth] We might be able to do that in November.

[anneliese] I think my body wants to live on mountain time, CM, but taint happenin.

[Elizabeth] lol!

[camidon] lol

[camidon] It was only in the 60s here.

[Elizabeth] now I'm *really* jealous.

[anneliese] 80s here. Going to 60 tonight.

[camidon] Very pleasant--we'll see how I feel in January though

[anneliese] Hi Juanita!

[Juanita] Hi everyone

[Elizabeth] Mid-80s will probably be our low, Anneliese. Too humid for the temp to go down much.

[DaveK] Hi Juanita

[Elizabeth] hi Juanita!

[camidon] Hello

[anneliese] Hi Bob!

[bobfri] hi

[camidon] Evening Bob

[DaveK] Hi Bob, Now we've got a,b,c,d,e, and j. Juanita has to change her name to Fred.

[Elizabeth] hi Bob! How are you?

[bobfri] good evening

[bobfri] or floridaian

[Juanita] Fred it is.

[anneliese] LOL Dave!

[bobfri] i want to change my name to mickey

[Juanita] It's a little too cool here for floridaian

[DaveK] Has to start with B

[camidon] wow, that's pretty weird

[anneliese] Can I be goofy?

[Elizabeth] lol!

[bobfri] beetlejuice

[camidon] No, no, Anneliese, it's MAY I be goofy

[Elizabeth] brb, husband just got home.

[Juanita] when aren't we goofy?

[Juanita] g.a.

[DaveK] Goofy is not unique enough in this group.

[bobfri] I prefer pluto

[camidon] And don't our chats usually drift into that realm?

[anneliese] OK, well, how about I be anaconda, if you must be goofy.

[anneliese] CM! Us??? Goofy!?!?!?!?

[bobfri] Can I be Donald instead of Mickey?

[Juanita] I think D is taken

[camidon] Yeah, I know, Anneliese. We're just so darn stuffy it's almost frightening.

[bobfri] Can't we have two D's?

[camidon] It might do us some good to livening things up with a sprinkling of wackiness and a dash of daubachery

[camidon] Ok, I've let my sarcasm run its course for the night. What next?

[Juanita] Maybe a chat?

[Juanita] g?

[bobfri] what happened to the sink hole stuff?

[anneliese] I don't know, CM, we do have Juanita's story to discuss...very serious matters, you know...

[DaveK] 'bout what?

[Juanita] About writing, I meant.

[Juanita] Oh Yes!!!! definitely MY

[Juanita] ORY

[Juanita] STORY. got fat fingers

[DaveK] Well, your grammer and spelling seem a bit off tonight.

[camidon] Oh, yes, discussing writing is always good, we are a bunch of writers, write?

[camidon] lol

[anneliese] So, Juanita, wanna start?

[DaveK] But are we right writers?

[Juanita] I never did get a sink hole story done. Just the first part. A sinkhole time and place

[camidon] Do you have any comments before we discuss your story, Juanita?

[bobfri] unless any of us is a lefty

[anneliese] You might still have time to jam out a sinkhole story..

[anneliese] <==lefty

[Juanita] As for Geoff's story, I think this chap has fewer troubles.

[DaveK] I never could get into the dance contest thing.

[Juanita] I'm not sure if that is because I'm more into the story and people are caught up in it or if I''m just past those beginning glitches

[Juanita] I thought the dance would be a novel form of extortionism

[Juanita] extortion? It grew out of the sequel to this novel, which I wrote first, of course

[anneliese] I thought the writing was very smooth...and did I detect a chat-inspired scene in zero g?

[Elizabeth] sorry, will be back in a little while, some house stuff has come up. :::sigh:::

[DaveK] Who is extorting who?

[Juanita] You did. I also used CM's idea for a music gorup name

[Juanita] Chin extorting Geoff

[bogwitch64] hi all

[anneliese] Hi Terri!

[DaveK] But Geoff is already doing Chin's dirty work.

[bobfri] hi Terri

[Juanita] I'm working on ANOTHER rewrite of Chap one

[Juanita] Hi Terri

[DaveK] Hi Terri

[bogwitch64] I'm here but I'm not here because I'm on the phone with my daughter in California. Haven't spoken to her in a few days. I'll be reading along.

[anneliese] Juanita, have you completed the whole novel?

[Juanita] Yes. Iusually finish the novel before putting any out for crit because once I'm done I always have to fix the beginning

[anneliese] How many chapters total (just curious)

[Juanita] I thought I'd submit up to the first major plot twist, then send in the second one and a bit after it.

[Juanita] Um, don't really remember. High 20s, I think

[anneliese] Sorry. I'm confused. So, you'll keep submitting until the first plot twist, then resend Ch. 1?

[Juanita] No. then skip the middle and send the second major plot twist

[Juanita] That way I get comments without making you all read the whole thing

[bobfri] why skip the middle

[anneliese] Will that confuse those of us easily befuddled by skipping part of the story?

[Juanita] It would take two years to send it all

[camidon] Here's my quick and dirty two sense about this later chapter. This chapter suddenly zooms along way to fast. In many previous chapters, nothing really happens except for home life, dancing, and a few interesing details, but suddenly we have a shoplifing scene, a meetup in an arena, and G and T...

[Juanita] possible :(

[DaveK] Given that I'm confused already

[camidon] ...making rounds to shady places and shady characters. This just kind of blows up in Chapter Six, a little too fast. <end trasmission>

[Juanita] Arrrgh too slow, then too fast. Some day I'll get it right.

[Juanita] Maybe I need to put some of this chap in an earlier one

[camidon] Juanita, I'd send along a few more chapters, then lobby a few of us to read the enitre manuscript, a novel exchange for feedback so to speak.

[anneliese] I liked this chapter in that it moved very fast and also finally showed the gang side of the MCs. I think this could be stronger as the first chapter,

[anneliese] then the first chapter following this one.

[camidon] Bingo, Juanita. Not a lot needs to come earlier, but some.

[anneliese] I'd be happy to read the whole novel...later in the year, say October-November.

[camidon] When I have more time in the winter, i'd be willing to swap manuscripts for feedback. Probably a few others would too.

[camidon] (Anneliese, I see we're already swallowing up our Nano time this year? ;)

[anneliese] (I'm thinking of doing it again...is anyone else?)

[bobfri] huh

[camidon] It all depends how you want to construct the novel, Juanita, whether you start fast-paced with all of this happening, or build it up little by little. Presently, you've written the latter, which is fine, but each previous chapter should be building to Chapter 6 and I don't yet feel they do.

[anneliese] Nanowrimo

[DaveK] I'm thinking about it. If I'm not working full time.

[anneliese] Juanita, how many more chapters before the plot twist?

[bobfri] I've got to get going. Good night.

[camidon] (I'm up for November pain and punishment agin. It's too much fun to avoid)

[anneliese] Juanita, do you have any questions for us?

[camidon] Did we lose Juanita?

[anneliese] You were lost, but now your found!

[anneliese] you're

[Juanita] I'm back please give me a minute to catch up reading

[anneliese] (my typing is terrible tonight)

[Juanita] Yes. I had to disconnect and redial -up. Nothing was workkiing

[Juanita] I like the idea of swapping MSes . I began on the slow side because there are quite a few characters in this book

[Juanita] I tried to introduce them in bits rather than the five major ones plus all hte gang and familiy

[Juanita] My current version of Chap one is putting in a section with Geoff taking his sister to the low gravity market by the docks

[camidon] Character wise, Juanita, I think you do an excellent job of introducing most of them, Trevor and Geoff, Chin and Lui, Geoff's family are all well done.

[Juanita] The intention of that is to establish their relationship and, as someone suggested, show Geoff in a stronger role besides with chin and Lui

[camidon] It's the gang I got lost because I couldn't recall any of those names before, and I was floundering for a mental picture of the gang. These characters just need to be hinted at early, not necessarily all together as a gang, but one by one we should see most of the gang briefly before the events...

[camidon] of Chapter 6

[Juanita] You did meet them briefly. I understand it's hard to remember month to month

[camidon] I think that's a great idea for Chapter 1, Juanita.

[camidon] I thought that might have been the case...

[Juanita] Thanks. these chats are full of good ideas. I even remember some of them

[camidon] Then ignore myprevious statement. (Someone else, please jump in before I incriminate myself further!)

[Juanita] BAck to a previous question.

[anneliese] (I'm not ignoring you all, just having trouble forming lucid thoughts)

[Elizabeth] bak

[Juanita] since major plottwists have to be at 25 and 75 percent of the book, they are in chaps 8 and 23

[anneliese] wb, Elizabeth!

[bogwitch64] still on phone...reading

[anneliese] wb Bob!

[Juanita] welcome, both

[Elizabeth] glad to see you back, Bob.

[bobfri] just have a few minutes wanted to drop back in

[anneliese] Are you counting those by chapter number or word count (plot twists)

[Juanita] happy to have you here

[anneliese] (I'm really having a hard time with basic sentence structure tonight)

[Juanita] Ummmmm by number of pages, with 250 words/page

[Juanita] If plot twist one falls on page 100, the second one goes on page 300 and the final page of the book is page 400

[anneliese] Works for me.

[bobfri] that seems long for me

[Juanita] You mean too long a novel? that's 100,000 words

[anneliese] I guess I am struggling with where the plot is going at this point in the story...

[bobfri] too long between twists

[Elizabeth] a lot did happen in this chapter...I'm wondering where the drug run and the meeting with the pimp figure in the larger story.

[anneliese] I'm really lousy at understanding plot, so take this with a cuppa salt...

[Juanita] right now some SF and Fantasy publishers arent looking at anything less than 120,000

[Elizabeth] Does the pimp show up later on?

[Juanita] Okay, Bob. Sorry. That's only major twists. There should be other stuff in between.

[bobfri] cool

[Juanita] No, Elizabeht, he doesn't, but I do have a place where Geoff wonders if he should call him

[Elizabeth] Or the other gang members? Because, as good and atmospheric as the 'hands' scene was, I'm not sure how it advances the story.

[DaveK] I usually don't look at anything over that.

[Elizabeth] We already know that Geoff has wicked fast reflexes...

[Juanita] Admitting that plot is my really weak point...

[Juanita] Anything over what, Dave?

[Elizabeth] I thought that the introduction of the pimp might be a foreshadowing of just how deep Geoff is getting into the underworld.

[Elizabeth] Especially if he contemplates calling the pimp later.

[DaveK] Over 100,000 words, say 400 pages. I like short stuff.

[Elizabeth] I'm waiting, perhaps a little too anxiously, for something to go wrong with one of Geoff's criminal assignments.

[Elizabeth] Something to up the ante, and the suspense, a little bit.

[anneliese] So am I.

[Juanita] the whole thing in this book is Geoff gets blackmailed into dancing, Geoff finds out it won't end with the competition, Geoff figures out how to get free of Chin and Lui

[Juanita] Chap 8 and 9 someone else tries to leave the Organization (sorry CM, I haven't come up with another name) and gets killed.

[camidon] I agree with E and A

[Elizabeth] So this might be a good opportunity to show that conflict...one of the drug drops gets ugly, for example, and Geoff wonders how much longer he wants to do this.

[Elizabeth] My favorite part of this chapter was actually the end, where Trevor's looking out for Geoff...there's some real emotional potential here.

[Juanita] Geoff makes a shoplifting mistake and winds up in jail in chap 19

[camidon] That's why I liked the end of Chapter 5; it seemed to "up the ante", but now I'm not so sure it did.

[Elizabeth] A chance for Geoff to realize, or even start to realize, how good a friend Trevor is,

[Elizabeth] and to hate Chin and Lui for beating the poor kid up.

[Elizabeth] Or hate himself for allowing it to happen.

[DaveK] Kill someone in chapter one and make Geoff the replacement.

[Elizabeth] There's a definite chink in Geoff's emotional armor when he realizes that Trevor stayed with him until they got to his stop.

[Juanita] food for thought

[Elizabeth] A moment of vulnerability (even if Geoff can't quite admit it).

[Juanita] Glad it showed

[Elizabeth] The first realization, perhaps, that even a smart, fast teenage boy like himself isn't bulletproof.

[Elizabeth] Because they do tend to think they're invulnerable. :)

[bobfri] that's for sure

[camidon] I agree with E, that sums up my feeling at the end of C6

[Elizabeth] And Geoff is starting, in a way, to come up against his physical limitations when he dances.

[Elizabeth] Which, IMO, would make him hate Chin and Lui even more. He's used to being the best, or really damned good, at physical activities.

[Elizabeth] Pardon the language. :)

[Juanita] He is. I'm not sure I've captured that particulare element. Hadn't even thought about it in those terms. Thanks

[Elizabeth] The pressures should be building up on him--his fears for his own future and safety, his loyalty to Trevor and his family, his disgust with certain elements of the underworld--

[bobfri] now I have to say good night

[Elizabeth] he should be approaching the point where he says, at least to himself, "To hell with Chin and Lui. I gotta get out of this. Now how?"

[Elizabeth] I understand it'll take a while for him to reach that point, but we should see the pressure building.

[Juanita] It is that itme, isn't it?

[Elizabeth] 'fraid so.

[Elizabeth] Hope I haven't run on too long.

[anneliese] <==agrees with Elizabeth. He has every reason to be feeling plenty of emotions that lead to change, but I'm not seeing evidence yet...and I wanted to.

[Elizabeth] And that some of my ramblings are useful. You have a lot of the elements in place, Juanita. You need to amplify them.

[Elizabeth] Get the plot points and personality points in phase and use them like a laser.

[camidon] Got to go, gang. Thanks for the pleasant chat. Really, start thinking about Nano <nano, nano, nano, nano, nano>

[Juanita] Yes, useful ramblings. Thanks

[Elizabeth] Because the individual points are solid.

[DaveK] Elizabeth, do we get the sinkhole stories today?

[Juanita] Thank you all for your input.

[Elizabeth] no no Nano!

[Elizabeth] Yes, today we get sinkhole.

[Elizabeth] Bleah! What a phrase!

[camidon] gnight all

[anneliese] Thanks for coming.

[DaveK] If I'm not making money I'll be there.- nano

[Elizabeth] goodnight CM!

[bogwitch64] Hey, does anyone here watch Survivor?

[anneliese] Really wild storms. Bunches of down/broken trees. Roads closed. A reall mess this morning.

[DaveK] Not me but my wife

[anneliese] Don't watch it.

[Elizabeth] No...I don't watch much network TV.

[Elizabeth] are you all right, Anneliese? Was the damage bad by you?

[bogwitch64] I've never watched it myself but I'm going to this year. My daughter's best friend (my 'son' by years of friendship) is one of the contestants

[anneliese] We were fine. Storm was scary, but no damage in our immediate neighborhood. Next neighborhood over...entirely different matter.

[bogwitch64] If he wins a million dollars, I better get a present for all the dinners I made and games of clue, Trivial pursuit and Scrabble

[Elizabeth] Absolutely. :)

[bogwitch64] It's that bad by you, huh A??? Wow. Nothing like that here

[anneliese] We'll root for him, in a virtual-kind of way :)

[bogwitch64] No where near

[bogwitch64] lol A

[Elizabeth] Glad you're all right, Anneliese.

[DaveK] It will be interesting to see how/if his personality changes for the game.

[bogwitch64] I'm interestede in seeing that myself

[Elizabeth] I'll be pulling for him to win, Terri.

[bogwitch64] I saw the clips--it's so weird

[bogwitch64] Thanks E

[DaveK] I see that my next "story" made it out today.

[DaveK] This comes with a disclaimer up front.

[Elizabeth] Yep. I'm ahead of the curve for once. :)

[bogwitch64] I didn't get it

[Elizabeth] I even made my son's lunch this evening.

[bogwitch64] I mean I didn't get the mailing

[Elizabeth] I just sent it out a few minutes ago, Terri. Let me know if you haven't gotten it by the end of the chat.

[DaveK] How recent did you send it out E?

[bogwitch64] Oh, ok

[bogwitch64] It's on my aol account

[anneliese] I just got it...of course we're on the same mail server.

[DaveK] Sinkholes come out next?

[DaveK] Or Juanita?

[DaveK] Sorry, Juanita was last week.

[Elizabeth] I believe Sinkholes come out next week.

[bogwitch64] OOOO! I just saw a trailer for 'The Brother's Grimm'

[bogwitch64] looks FUN

[bogwitch64] Juanita was last week?? I thought she's the 22nd

[bogwitch64] or is that a new one?

[Elizabeth] It does. In a warped Terry Gilliam way, of course.

[DaveK] Last week I brought Analog, Asimov;s and F&SF. Came home and three mags I subscribe to were there.

[bogwitch64] Yes, yes yes!!!

[Elizabeth] I sent out Juanita's sub last week. Critiques are due the 22nd, so the date she's officially assigned to is 8/22.

[Elizabeth] It's confusing at first, but you'll get used to it. :)

[bogwitch64] ok, gotcha

[DaveK] That always trips me up too. I think of the send out data as the "date" of the critique

[DaveK] Hi Chris

[bogwitch64] Hey Chris

[anneliese] Hi CM

[camidon] Good Evening

[anneliese] (sorry, I'm distracted...trying to sort out a FTP problem for someone)

[DaveK] I know how that goes. I was working on an email problem all day.

[Elizabeth] hi CM!

[DaveK] Chris, thanks for the critique.

[camidon] Oh, good, you got it, dave, When I sent out Juanita's, my email was wonking out so at least that worked

[camidon] oh, your welcome :angel:

[DaveK] We talked about it last week. I'm probably going to redo it as a short without the two guys in the bar talking about it.

[anneliese] (back...until the next email shows up)

[camidon] Like the title of your new submission, dave. Wish I could have made the previous chat.

[DaveK] The protagonist is being investigated by the SEC which is both the Securities Excahnge Commision and the Superverse Entanglement Control

[Elizabeth] nice combination of acronyms. :)

[DaveK] I hope to getsome humor into it.

[Elizabeth] Terri...when do we want to start discussing your sub?

[bogwitch64] Anytime you're ready

[bogwitch64] I actually got here for this one! LOL

[camidon] Teri, you've got a critique coming, it's in progress.

[bogwitch64] Thanks Chris. Take your time

[camidon] Thanks, I will. How's sometime in 200? ;)

[camidon] oops 2006

[bogwitch64] LOL, sounds...timely

[anneliese] ...then 2007 is good for me ;)

[DaveK] Terri, do you have anything published out there?

[bogwitch64] :-D

[bogwitch64] Thanks, everyone for the crits recieved

[bogwitch64] I have just one magazine short (flash) published

[camidon] no need to make me feel better at your expense Anneliese, though I appreciate the thought!

[bogwitch64] Local magazine insert

[DaveK] You a flash piece? Good thing I'm sitting down.

[bogwitch64] Oh, I emailed it to you today, Dave. Didn't get it?

[bogwitch64] LOL Dave

[DaveK] Yes, I was baiting you ;-)

[bogwitch64] I like to write Young Adult as well as fantasy. The flash is YA

[bogwitch64] LOL

[bogwitch64] And I bit

[camidon] Dave, this is WRITING, not fishing. Wrong chat group.

[DaveK] LOL

[bogwitch64] d'oh

[DaveK] I can write about fishing - sounds like another challenge topic.

[bogwitch64] Not another one! Nooooooooo! LOL

[anneliese] Fishing in sink holes???

[DaveK] E, how many sinkhole stories did you get?

[Elizabeth] Four total.

[DaveK] Not bad.

[DaveK] Are we supposed to be chatting about Terri's story?

[bogwitch64] I'm all ears

[camidon] Can someone send me Juanita's submission for the 22nd? I can't seem to locate it, and I think my email wonkiness deleted a handful of my emails.

[Elizabeth] I can send you a copy, CM. Just give me a minute.

[Elizabeth] brb

[anneliese] Is there anything you'd like to ask us about the sub, Terri?

[camidon] BTW, I'm warning you, my next submission will be a direct result of the sinkhole challenge. A 10k+ whopper's coming

[anneliese] Kewl!

[camidon] Thanks, Elizabeth

[bogwitch64] hmmmm...I don't think so. I got all the crits\

[anneliese] (except us delinquent ones)

[bogwitch64] :-D

[bogwitch64] :D

[bogwitch64] there, that's better

[bogwitch64] always do the wrong smilie thing

[camidon] Yah, Anneliese has the right idea, any thoughts about your second chapter and how it fits into the bigger work?

[anneliese] Yea, never know whether to use the nose or not.

[DaveK] Very well written as I remember. Just a few nits is all I had.

[Elizabeth] I liked what you did with the setting, Terri, and with the relationships between Keith, Kate, Erin and his piggish brother.

[bogwitch64] Chris, I have the whole thing outlined and 16 chapters done

[Elizabeth] His interaction with the old woman is also very nicely done. I'm looking forward to seeing what she turns out to be.

[bogwitch64] It does fit, though the opinion seems to be it's too slow

[bogwitch64] Thanks E

[bogwitch64] Did anyone get that the old woman was the pixie thing from chapter one?

[camidon] Physical writing is very good. I never find myself stumbling over awkward constructions.

[bogwitch64] Or are the chapters two far apart to remember?

[bogwitch64] Chris, thanks

[Elizabeth] What I wanted to see, and didn't, was more of a conflict--a crisis--that will impel Keith to move forward, to take some sort of action.

[DaveK] It's slow for me, but then I watch TV with a remote in one hand and the wife in another room.

[anneliese] I suspected that she was the pixie.

[bogwitch64] LOL Dave

[Elizabeth] I figured out the old woman/pixie thing...from the teeth.

[Elizabeth] The brother going missing is a possibility, but Keith doesn't seem to be too worried about it.

[anneliese] What concerned me most was the pacing. I wondered, even, if Chapter 1 was even necessary. Ch2, seems more the beginning.

[DaveK] I missed that, but what I hate about reviewing chapters is the time lag. I forget too much between chapters.

[camidon] My basic opinion is still out. I give it two more chapters, and, if after the fourth, I'm still questioning the pace and starting place, then I'll be worried about the health of this tale.

[bogwitch64] Right now, the way I have it in my head, the 'mystery' is how these things will fit together

[Elizabeth] An instructor I had for a novel-writing course told us that, these days, a writer has about three pages to hook the reader. Possibly less. And editors have even shorter attention spans.

[bogwitch64] I think a HUGE problem with the pacing thing is the fact that these chapters come weeks apart

[bogwitch64] It's really only a few pages--not too much can happen without it being to rushed

[Elizabeth] True. It's hard to critique a novel when the chapters are sent out several weeks apart.

[bogwitch64] :(

[anneliese] If all you chapters are this short, perhaps consider sending 2 at a time?

[anneliese] your

[bogwitch64] The first chapter is basic character interaction, character building and the first mystery of the little woman in the tree

[camidon] The questions is, when does the "mystery" become too annoying to the reader. It's a delicate balance leading the reader with mystery and causing a reader quite because it's too confusing.

[DaveK] Good idea, 2 chapters. Maybe about 5k words max.

[bogwitch64] Some are, Anneliese, some aren't

[bogwitch64] I try to write what my husband calls <pardon the imagery> potty reads

[bogwitch64] Something that can be read in a short time before work or whatever

[Elizabeth] I wanted a little more hint that big bro might be in genuine peril.

[anneliese] lol...I have to remember that one!

[bogwitch64] lol

[Elizabeth] Perhaps the hot Renaissance babe comes storming past, wondering where yon stud went to...

[bogwitch64] Actually, Keith's peril comes after other characters' peril

[DaveK] Doesn't that depend on how much fiber you've had?

[camidon] Uh oh! Watchout for the snowballing potty humor!

[anneliese] I was looking for more hints of peril also.

[Elizabeth] and Keith knows that his brother wouldn't EVER pass up an opportunity like her...

[bogwitch64] lol

[camidon] You have such a way of putting things Elizabeth. You really should be published!

[Elizabeth] Terri, avoid potty humor with this group...while we're on the subject of peril...

[bogwitch64] LOL

[bogwitch64] ok

[bogwitch64] duly noted

[anneliese] lol, Elizabeth...we're not THAT bad...are we?

[bogwitch64] Brody is the only character that doesn't get a POV

[bogwitch64] There's a reason for that--but that's not important

[Elizabeth] no, I'm just as bad an influence on the group as anybody.

[Elizabeth] Witness the squid incident...

[DaveK] Anneliese, how many chats haven't you published because of our humor?

[Elizabeth] CM, can you drop the folks at F&SF a note and tell them I should be published? :)

[bogwitch64] Here's where I have a problem--setting up enough without setting up too much. The story needs to be pulled along but without shortchanging the character/world building necessary for a good fantasy

[bogwitch64] sigh...

[anneliese] I'm not counting.

[camidon] "Hot Renaissance babe" Just start your story with that and you'll be published in no time!

[bogwitch64] lol

[bogwitch64] Some of those women at the Ren-faire's are so pushed up their boobs are on their shoulders

[anneliese] I guess my problem overall, is that while the first scene in Ch1, with the knife throwing was really good, but didn't do anything that I can yet see to engage the story.

[anneliese] I thought the scene in the parking lot told me more about your MD.

[anneliese] And especially the scene with the old woman.

[camidon] Terri, Have you read "Otherland" by... by... Oh, pooh, who wrote that...

[bogwitch64] What I wanted that scene to do was introduce the general feel of these characters--Ren-faire, dungeons and dragons-type geeks

[anneliese] That was very telling (in a good way).

[Elizabeth] The scene with the old woman was my favorite so far. Right after that the scene with Kate and Erin.

[bogwitch64] It was supposed to get Keith's ridiculous self confidence problem across, considering he plays the 'hero' in the game

[Elizabeth] They do a great deal to tell us about Keith...especially why we should care about him.

[bogwitch64] It was supposed to introduce Brody as the exception to the rule of geekdom

[Elizabeth] had to laugh at your description of Renaissance busts, though...I've seen a few in chainmail brassieres.

[bogwitch64] And his lust for the ladies at the expense of his brother's pride

[camidon] Ah! Tad Williams. That's who. He manages to make the confusion of a virtual world interesting. Somehow he keeps us reading for like 2000 pages. He could've written the series in half that many words, but he kept me reading nontheless.

[bogwitch64] LOL Elizabeth--hilarious, eh?

[anneliese] The way Keith handles himself with respect to Brody says everything about his self confidence...in a way, the knife scene is redundant.

[Elizabeth] And darned uncomfortable..especially in Texas in mid-June.

[Elizabeth] <--- agrees w/Anneliese. The way Keith handles himself around Brody--even around his good friends Kate and Erin--shows all that we need to know about his lack of self-confidence.

[camidon] anyway, you may want to read a little of it to contemplate pace and set-up for a novel of this type.

[bogwitch64] But without it, where is the introduction to the story? It would entail building an entirely new intro wherein the busty lass could find a way in to be the catalyst for the character dynamic of these two brothers

[bogwitch64] If not this, it would be something else

[anneliese] She could be selling turkey legs to faire goers.

[camidon] I like that first scene, Terri; I just don't know if that first scene is the best possible scene.

[bogwitch64] hmmmm...I shall have to consider

[anneliese] <==agrees with CM. I did like the scene also.

[DaveK] Don't worry too much, even me with my short attention span am willing to keep reading.

[camidon] How many chapters is it before we get "reality?"

[bogwitch64] For now, it remains the first scene. This is only the first draft, after all. Much changes after a whole novel has been finished.

[bogwitch64] reality?

[anneliese] My point is that you have a huge amount of set-up to put this chick in place, and while excellent writing, might not be entirely necessary.

[bogwitch64] Sorry, Chris, didn't get it

[bogwitch64] Gotcha, Anneliese--my downfall. Well written excess

[Elizabeth] There are all sorts of places a busty Renaissance wench could turn up...especially when she sees a likely lad.

[bogwitch64] Chris, do you mean how many chapters until they fall into the game?

[bogwitch64] so to speak

[camidon] <=====Agrees with Anneliese

[camidon] sure, I think...

[Elizabeth] Heck, you could have both the busty wench and the decrepit old woman looking for assistance.

[Elizabeth] Brody, being a horndog, "assists" the wench, while Keith helps the old woman with her much heavier boxes.

[anneliese] I'd almost like to see the two women in proximity...particularly if busty wench plays a role farther into the story.

[bogwitch64] Some of my favorite books begin with a fairly unrelated scene that has some significance to what happens later on. As a matter of fact, the book I'm reading right now started with a beheading that pretty much introduced the world and a few of the main characters through this beheading.

[bogwitch64] It's kind of what I was trying to do with this--just a scene to set the stage

[bogwitch64] Chris--the 'fantasy' characters bring the game to the real world for a few chapters before it goes into the other world

[DaveK] We're only 3300 words into the book. You have a couple of thousand to get to some conflict.

[bogwitch64] The only role the assistant plays is as a foible between the brothers

[anneliese] We'll stop beating you up over it...I think CM and I are more concerned in the long run about overall pacing, anyway.

[camidon] Okay. That makes good sense. But is this the best scene to set that stage is the question? My fear is that it's not, though, as I said before, I'm reserving judgement for a few more chapters.

[bogwitch64] <getting ice pack for all the bruises

[bogwitch64] :D

[anneliese] I like books like that also. But those opening gambits usually leave the reader with some sort of cliff-hanger. I didn't feel that way here.

[anneliese] (I know...I'm not very lucid tonight)

[bogwitch64] The pixie thing in the tree didn't do it for you, huh Anneliese? I wasn't going for BAM but apparently it was too understated. I was going for subtle.

[camidon] <===Agrees with Anneliese (We've formed a WWF wrestling tag-team and we're presently bodyslamming our point across the ring--it may not survive but we're having a good time doing it)

[bogwitch64] lol

[DaveK] I expected that the pixie would play a big part in chapter two, I missed the old woman connection.

[Elizabeth] I liked the pixie in the tree--if there's a hint of menace, of something else that's not quite right, her sudden presence could be quite unnerving, both for Keith and the reader.

[camidon] Subtle is good, but at least one thing must grab our eyelashes and pull. I'm still waiting to be pulled in, but I'm so close, and I think that makes it more frustrating.

[bogwitch64] The pixie thing is actually a major character

[anneliese] My feeling, Terri, is that the pixie thing is into the main story. The knife scene is the opening gambit.

[anneliese] And I definately liked the pixie part.

[bogwitch64] Elizabeth--hmmmm...a bit more menace, eh? Actually, she does pose a sort of threat to Keith. sideways, sort of

[bogwitch64] I could add a line or two to hint at that

[bogwitch64] grab eyelashes and pull!!! I love it!

[camidon] <btw, Elizabeth, got Juanita's newest sub, thanks again>

[Elizabeth] you're welcome, CM.

[Elizabeth] I guess, Terri, that the one thing more that I wanted from these first two chapters was a hint of crisis or menace.

[Elizabeth] That something is about to go very, very wrong, and that it will be all Keith can do to get through it.

[Elizabeth] The start of this novel is *so* close to being really good, really engaging...a bit more hint of trouble would do it, I think.

[bogwitch64] Things go wrong for Peter from the start (I believe that's the next chapter) very, very wrong and it involves the pixie thingy and the guy who gives them the game

[Elizabeth] But I agree with CM...sometimes it's almost more frustrating to read something that's almost there than to read something that's flat out bad.

[bogwitch64] Ok, Elizabeth. I gotcha. More tension, menace, forboding

[camidon] Exactly, Elizabeth.

[DaveK] Does Peter diassapear? Maybe you could put that in as a small aside.

[bogwitch64] I believe I did, Dave. Peter and Erin are missing from the beginning and by chapter two, Peter is still missing

[DaveK] I ment the actual abduction or whatever.

[bogwitch64] Nope, Peter is 'lost' but it's part of the game.

[bogwitch64] They just don't know they're playing just yet

[Elizabeth] Or perhaps Erin realizes that something is wrong...Peter doesn't up and leave without saying something to her. Or he left a personal article he always has with him...some hint that things are amiss.

[DaveK] I think more than a hint.

[camidon] This is where one two many things are subtle. Just give us a little nudge of immediate danger of tension. That's what keeps us reading. Then, as the story unfolds, all the well-placed subtle constructions create a more fulfilling read, but, to use the phrase again, "pull the eyelashes a tad more

[bogwitch64] lol

[anneliese] Any closing remarks?

[bogwitch64] hmmmm...thanks?

[bogwitch64] lol

[camidon] Wait a moment. Perhaps that eyelash tug is my bed calling...

[bogwitch64] seriously, thanks for the input

[Elizabeth] You've made an excellent start, Terri. Don't let the comments discourage you.

[bogwitch64] have lots to think about

[Elizabeth] That wasn't my intent...

[bogwitch64] Not at all

[DaveK] Keep up the good work and send in more words next time.

[anneliese] It's good stuff and we want to see more of it.

[bogwitch64] I don't get discouraged--counterproductive

[camidon] Yes, I agree with Elizabeth

[Elizabeth] This sounds like a very interesting intersection of mythologies, and I'm eager to see what the "game" is like.

[bogwitch64] Gotcha, Dave

[bogwitch64] Did we decide upon a word count?

[camidon] Good writing, good characters. Send more along!

[bogwitch64] :)

[anneliese] 5K works, try not to go too much over that if you want the most critiques.

[Elizabeth] yes, send more chapters!

[bogwitch64] got it

[bogwitch64] Thanks again, everyone

[camidon] Terri, As I'm sending something in excess of 10K (my apologies in advance, again,) don't worry too much about it!

[bogwitch64] My shoulder blades are BURNING from being at this computer too long

[anneliese] Over 10K and you only get your best friends (the ones in this room) to respond reliably (me excluded, of course)

[bogwitch64] LOL Chris

[camidon] 5k is a good amount though

[bogwitch64] No worries, can't wait

[camidon] LOl

[bogwitch64] I'll send however many chapters comes in under 5k words

[bogwitch64] ((((((((((Everyone))))))))))))) Thanks again! I'll see you next week!

[anneliese] Hi Dave!

[DaveK] Hi Anneliese

[anneliese] How was your weekend?

[Elizabeth] hi there! How did last Monday night go?

[DaveK] Hi Elizabeth

[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!

[anneliese] We had a good chat last Monday. I posted the log even!

[Elizabeth] yay! A postable chat! I guess that when I'm gone they stay more...mature. ;)

[anneliese] Naw, it would have been even better with you there. Terri told us a lot about her plans for the novel.

[Elizabeth] Had a very pleasant week in northern Wisconsin.

[Elizabeth] Oooh. What were her plans?

[anneliese] And we shamed her into sending another chapter in.

[anneliese] Her characters are based upon mythological archetypes. From mythologies all over the world.

[Elizabeth] I did get that next chapter.

[Elizabeth] I saw some Gaelic mythology there, with the pointed-toothed woman.

[anneliese] It sounds like it is going to be a fascenating story. Yep, that was some of it.

[DaveK] AM I working again?

[anneliese] You're here Dave!

[DaveK] Good my browser just locked up.

[Elizabeth] he's back!

[anneliese] I've been getting a lot of that lately. I think there must be some strange javascript tweaking going on.

[DaveK] How are the challenge stories going?

[Elizabeth] Mine keeps refreshing itself. I just hope Firefox doesn't choke...

[anneliese] I'm still working on mine.

[Elizabeth] I got your challenge story, Dave, and one from Bob Friedman, and I actually finished one myself before leaving town.

[anneliese] It does that for me also, Elizabeth. It hasn't been a problem though.

[DaveK] I asked for a critique date but haven't heard back. ???

[Elizabeth] do you need an extra day or two to finish yours, Anneliese?

[anneliese] I have learned that if Firefox seems to be slowing down, empty the cache. I don't think it knows how to manage cache properly.

[Elizabeth] Dave, I thought this week would be Sinkhole stories.

[anneliese] I will force myself to get it finished tomorrow night, if that's ok with you.

[DaveK] Is next week taken?

[Elizabeth] Then we have another novel chapter from Terri and your story. Preferences? Or does Anneliese have something to say here?

[Elizabeth] Tomorrow will be fine, Anneliese. :)

[anneliese] Yes, Dave, I've been very remiss with my email. I was in a different place last week.

[anneliese] My head was in a different place, that is. The body stayed around the usual haunts.

[anneliese] I have nothing to say :)

[Elizabeth] Hmmm. Sounds like the basis for a good story. :)

[Elizabeth] Did your head run into my Muse, by any chance?

[DaveK] August 15th is fine by me. I'll send it is later this week. OK?

[anneliese] If I seem a little punchy tonight, it's because I spent the day proofing quarterly financial statements.

[anneliese] At least that's my excuse :D

[Elizabeth] Ouch. My sympathies.

[anneliese] And the client was doing me a favor...giving me the proofing job so I'd have more billable hours...how sad is that?

[anneliese] Hi Terri!

[bogwitch64] Hey Anneliese!

[bogwitch64] Hey Anneliese!

[Elizabeth] hi Terri!

[bogwitch64] Oy, my firefox is being a bum

[DaveK] Hi Terri

[Elizabeth] All of us are having fun with browsers, Terri.

[bogwitch64] agrh

[bogwitch64] I noted my name and mention of my chapter above. When am I on?

[anneliese] Oh, and I've learned that firefox likes to be restarted once every few days, at least.

[DaveK] Next week if you want.

[bogwitch64] Hey Elizabeth! LOL, sorry! I missed your greeting with all this blinking!

[bogwitch64] I'll be in Prince Edward Island next week. :(

[bogwitch64] Well, that's a :) but you know what I mean

[anneliese] <== Likes PEI

[bogwitch64] My first visit, A

[anneliese] If your story goes out next week, your critique date is 2 weeks after.

[Elizabeth] Oooh. That sounds lovely.

[DaveK] Is that west coast or east coast?

[bogwitch64] Oh, good!

[anneliese] Hubby and I went to PEI for our honeymoon

[bogwitch64] East coast, Dave, just above Nova Scotia and Maine

[Elizabeth] So if Dave goes this week and Terri goes next week, when do the Sinkholes (dis)appear?

[bogwitch64] Chilly, Anneliese?

[DaveK] I thought I had the week after next.

[anneliese] Three weeks from now...or do you have another sub from Juanita by then.

[DaveK] I think of the dates as the date the story is sent out, not when the critiques are due.

[DaveK] think that is my confusion

[anneliese] Cool in the evening, but should be nice during the day...on the water can get cool.

[bogwitch64] Yes, we've heard

[bogwitch64] I've been to Maine a few times and the water was 52 degrees in August so I'm thinking we're not going to be swimming

[anneliese] We went out on a fishing boat...got kind of chilly.

[bogwitch64] LOL, we went whale watching out of boothbay harbor in maine one year (july) and I thought it was going to snow!

[anneliese] It doesn't matter to me which ms. goes out when.

[anneliese] It can surely feel that way, Terri. :)

[bogwitch64] Gadzooks this blinking is going to give me a seizure!

[anneliese] Dave, do you want us to tear up your story tonight?

[anneliese] Our server changed the way the database is handled...I sure hope we don't have to switch to a java-based chat because of it.

[DaveK] We can do that.

[DaveK] It was the one about seeing an alternative universe to predict stocks.

[DaveK] I got the idea because I'm always writing the next word in the sentance instead of completing to one I'm writing.

[bogwitch64] Insider trading taken one step further. ;)

[anneliese] I liked that it was in your time travel universe from the last story.

[bogwitch64] Have you thought about either focusing or extending this story, Dave?

[Elizabeth] I did like the basic concept. Takes day trading to an entirely new level. :)

[bogwitch64] I wish I'd seen the other stories. :(

[DaveK] I'm trying to develop Reg and Steve as sort of narators

[bogwitch64] I think I missed something important by missing them

[Elizabeth] But it feels more like an outline...especially since nearly all of it is told in dialogue. Dialogue about the past.

[DaveK] I can send them to you if you like Terri.

[bogwitch64] :) Send away, Dave

[bogwitch64] BogWitch64@aol.com

[DaveK] You'll get them tonight. Tear them up for me please.

[bogwitch64] :-D

[bogwitch64] Don't encourage me!

[DaveK] Too short huh?

[bogwitch64] I think so

[Elizabeth] Yeah, IMO, too short.

[DaveK] I sort of did them for Analog's short-short story

[Elizabeth] The first scene was nicely done; the rest of the story felt like an outline. I wanted more scenes like the first one.

[Elizabeth] What happens when your protagonist first figures out how to game the stock market?

[bogwitch64] Here's the good thing with a story like this and me not reading the others--it gives you a good idea of how it will do in the real world where darlling friends can't email those past stories to make more sense of what's going on or whatever.

[Elizabeth] I'd think he'd be somewhere between elated and scared ****less.

[Elizabeth] Or is there a chance that his talent might be exploited by his elders?

[anneliese] (if the blinking is too bad here, I set up a different chat: sfwritersworkshop.org/test_chat.htm )

[bogwitch64] Each story needs to be able to stand on its own with some brief recap or whatever so that your reader is oriented in the story instead of wondering.

[DaveK] I'm thinking about what you all are saying.

[DaveK] I'm torn between keeping it a flash piece or expanding it into a full short.

[anneliese] I agree with Elizabeth...your first scene is the strongest. I wanted more of that feeling in the subsequent scenes.

[bogwitch64] I agree too

[Elizabeth] If you wanted to make it a flash piece...what about using the scene where Mr. Stock Wizard meets the SEC investigator...and finds that he can no longer get into that alternate dimension, because he's too busy thinking about her?

[Elizabeth] You've got the conflict there...she's trying to bust him, he's afraid of both being caught and losing his one gift...

[Elizabeth] until he realizes that, when she's around, he can't do anything illegal. Perfect?

[anneliese] Might make the punch line more *punchy*

[DaveK] I could have him start his writing of stock quotes and them have him write her name - like a school boy with his first crush.

[bogwitch64] brb

[DaveK] He's not doing anything illegal if only because no one wrote a law against it yet.

[Elizabeth] Oooh. I like the first idea...writing the stock quotes and then her name. :)

[anneliese] I don't know, Dave. Wouldn't he think it was just the tiniest bit unethical?

[Elizabeth] All the while realizing that she could send him to jail if he isn't careful.

[DaveK] Then they turn into Mrs. ROger whatever.

[Elizabeth] Maybe he writes out her name, the stock prices...and scratches them all out in a panic.

[bogwitch64] back, sorry.

[bogwitch64] This house never settles down--oy, teenagers

[DaveK] He doesn't know what is going on, only that he can read the future.

[bogwitch64] This reminds me of that show on SciFi--used to be on CBS (I think) on Saturday nights--First Edition

[Elizabeth] He could make a killing in oil futures. ;)

[DaveK] Is that the one where he gets the paper early?

[bogwitch64] Yup

[bogwitch64] changes headlines or some such thing

[bogwitch64] I only watched it once or twice

[DaveK] I never watched a whole show.

[bogwitch64] I just thought Kyle Chandler was hot. ;)

[DaveK] So how do I end it? Have him sit in a bar and tell the story as a flash back...

[bogwitch64] YOu could begin and end it there

[DaveK] Maybe some young reporter asking him how he got so rich.

[Elizabeth] What if he gives up trying to predict the stock quotes...figures that he needs to take a break...and asks Ms. SEC out?

[Elizabeth] Even if she can't date him until the investigation's over. :)

[Elizabeth] Since, now that she's in his head all of the time, he can no longer do slightly shady stock transactions...

[Elizabeth] Or he and his wife are now sitting in the restaurant where they had their first date, and they're reminiscing...

[Elizabeth] only she doesn't know half of what really happened.

[DaveK] Lots of options, now I just have to pick one.

[anneliese] Or maybe she does :D

[bogwitch64] :-D

[bogwitch64] :D

[Elizabeth] She just thinks that the SEC sent her on a wild goose chase, and she lucked out into meeting this wonderful guy.

[bogwitch64] Oh, that's how it works!

[DaveK] That's cute Elizabeth

[Elizabeth] Or maybe she knows better. :D

[bogwitch64] I like that Elizabeth

[Elizabeth] That could be even more interesting.

[bogwitch64] Even better--he thinks he's hiding (or shielding) her when she's known all along--and even better would be if she was somehow cashing in on it too!

[DaveK] Or she came from the alternate universe.

[Elizabeth] lol!

[Elizabeth] Oooh. I really like that possibility, Dave.

[bogwitch64] Ha!

[Elizabeth] We just *thought* she was from the SEC.

[DaveK] Make her the cop.

[DaveK] SEC can stand for ...

[Elizabeth] Simultaneous Environment Control?

[bogwitch64] ...what?

[DaveK] Superverse Emision Control

[Elizabeth] That's pretty poor...Section for the Enforcement of Continuity?

[Elizabeth] My first try was poor, Dave, not yours.

[anneliese] simultaneous entropy correspondence

[Elizabeth] nice, Anneliese!

[DaveK] I like entropy

[anneliese] Yea, entropy has a certain silly ring...in a time story :D

[DaveK] Time to dig out the thesarus and dictionary

[bogwitch64] lol

[anneliese] Sort of gives a technobabble definition to what he was doing.

[DaveK] Superverse Entropy Crossover Control

[Elizabeth] Excellent. :)

[anneliese] Even better!

[DaveK] Maybe too cute

[bogwitch64] I don't think my posts are coming across...are they?

[bogwitch64] Ah, there's one

[bogwitch64] ol

[anneliese] Everything in your stories is too cute...I think it fits. Unless, you want to look into something more satirical.

[Elizabeth] Section for Entropy Containment?

[anneliese] I'm seeing your posts, Terri

[bogwitch64] I have to type them a couple of times before they go through

[bogwitch64] See, like that one! LOL

[bogwitch64] I'm going to head out, folks

[DaveK] COntainment is good, I get down to one C

[DaveK] By Terri. I'll send you my old stories.

[bogwitch64] I won't be around next week, remember, but if I get a story before I head out to PEI I'll crit it before I go

[anneliese] Glad you could make it, Terri, have a good evening.

[bogwitch64] Thanks, Dave!

[Elizabeth] good night, Terri, glad you could make it!

[bogwitch64] Sleep sweet all!

[anneliese] I think I hear thunder moving in.

[DaveK] Speaking of sending in stories. WHen do you need my next one?

[Elizabeth] I should probably sign off soon. Dave, get me your story and I'll send it out this week, if you still want the 8/15 critique date.

[DaveK] I found a new print SF mag - Apex Science Fiction and Horror

[Elizabeth] If you want a later date, I can send out Terri's chapter this week.

[DaveK] If you have Terri's send it out. When I said the 15th I was thinking of the date it gets sent out, not when the critiques are due.

[Elizabeth] Okay...so Terri's chapter goes out this week (and gets the 8/15 critique date),

[Elizabeth] the Sinkhole stories go out after that (and get critiques 8/22),

[DaveK] Sinkholes go out next and then me :-)

[Elizabeth] and we can send your story out on 8/15.

[Elizabeth] Sounds like a plan...unless Juanita already has a date for August and I don't remember it. :)

[anneliese] Hi Terri!
[anneliese] You did! You made it!
[bogwitch64] hehee
[anneliese] Now, hopefully, some other folks will also.
[bogwitch64] Here's hoping
[bogwitch64] Ok, while we are waiting I have to sign off this computer and onto the other. I'll be right back.
[bogwitch64] Actually, I don't have to. I'm going to minimize just a sec cause I have to check something. brb
[camidon] Howdy All!
[anneliese] Hi CM!
[anneliese] Things still as busy for you?
[camidon] How's it going this evening?
[anneliese] Going OK...a tad tired from staying up too late last night (as usual).
[anneliese] Yourself?
[camidon] Whoops, closed the wrong window, got it back though
[anneliese] I hate it when I do that
[camidon] Much better than last week. I'm not... hmm, how should I say? Not as... incoherent
[anneliese] Well, it's good that one of us isn't,
[bogwitch64] ok
[camidon] I'm slowly adjusting back to a busy schedule.
[anneliese] You're back!
[bogwitch64] I had to check my aol email for directions to my friend's house
[camidon] ha, Anneliese!
[camidon] Howdy, Terri\
[anneliese] And once you've adjusted, will the schedule slow down?
[bogwitch64] Hey there Cam!
[camidon] Yep--things will slow down a little now--no more family obligations
[bogwitch64] I just came down from a week of Girl Scout camp--whew, that was exhausting
[bogwitch64] but fun
[camidon] You can call be CM, or Chris, Terri
[bogwitch64] Ok, Chris it is--that's my son's name
[camidon] That's brave of you, Terri, way to go
[anneliese] Girls Scout camp...now that's something I haven't done in a loooooong time!
[bogwitch64] lol
[camidon] (about the girl scouts, not my name, that is)
[bogwitch64] I'm in charge of 40 program aides--12-16 year old girls. Fun stuff
[anneliese] That will keep a body busy.
[bogwitch64] :-D
[camidon] Hey, I actually wrote something for the challenge--three paragraphs...
[bogwitch64] woohoo!!
[bogwitch64] Good job, Chris
[anneliese] I'm still looking for mine...I actually wrote something years ago that sort of fits the theme, but I can't find it now.
[camidon] My short-short idea exploded into an outline of 25 scenes. I've written a third of one scene.
[bogwitch64] I've had two weeks away from my computer--not voluntarily even though it was fun stuff keeping me from writing
[anneliese] Guess I'm just going to have to write something else.
[camidon] It's no longer a short-short
[bogwitch64] That's still a lot, Chris
[anneliese] Sounds like a novel
[bogwitch64] 25 outlined scenes AND a few paragraphs--that's great!
[camidon] Couldn't you use the idea of what you wrote before?
[camidon] You make me feel so good!
[bogwitch64] Glad to be of service but I mean it--that's a wonderful accomplishment
[anneliese] Yes, I could. I could even re-write it pretty easily, but I was in a different place then than I am now.
[bogwitch64] Now WRITE those scenes
[anneliese] Yes WTG on getting that much accomplished, CM!
[camidon] Yes, writing those scenes is the next step. Must a lot time. Must a lot time.
[camidon] BTW, when was the challenge "due" anyway?
[bogwitch64] When I get time to write (which is sparse with the kids home for summer vacation) I work on Godseekers. I'm a terrible joiner of challenges
[anneliese] Technically yesterday, but since I only have 2 subs so far, I think I'll extend the challenge for a few more days.
[camidon] Ah, that makes sense Anneliese. Nothing is every truly the same again.
[bogwitch64] I usually write a good 5-6 hours a day--During the summer, it's more like three.
[anneliese] No problem, Terri, the challenges are mostly to kick some of us non-writers into gear.
[bogwitch64]
[camidon] You'll get mine eventually--these next two days are my weekends--alotting time.
[camidon] Still doing 3 hours? Okay, now I'M impressed.
[anneliese] I'm more than impressed...that's awesome!
[camidon] I write 3 pages a day, five days a week in the winter, but I do very little while working seasonally for the NPS
[bogwitch64] LOL Chris--I'm much happier when I get 6 quiet hours. Three noisy ones produce very little coherent work.
[bogwitch64] I'm lucky to have the time I want/need to write in
[bogwitch64] Thanks, anneliese
[camidon] in the summer. Way to go, Terri. You should keep sending stuff to the group. How many crits did you get for your sub?
[bogwitch64] Three pages a day is great!
[bogwitch64] I got quite a few actually
[bogwitch64] ummm...five, I think
[bogwitch64] One thing I was really looking for got answered
[anneliese] What was that?
[camidon] That's almost respectable for the group.
[bogwitch64] I'll send more, I dont' want to be a submission hog. LOL
[bogwitch64] There was a couple of lines at the very end of the chapter that I had cut then put back in on a friend's insistence
[anneliese] I'll be sending you one...just haven't had a chance to do it yet.
[bogwitch64] A few people said it was out of place and I agree
[bogwitch64] No worries, Anneliese
[anneliese] The very last two lines???
[camidon] I feel the same way, Terri, I never want to over submit, but when the spots are so dreadfully bare, I just send stuff off anyway
[bogwitch64] Yes, Anne. I took it back out again
[bogwitch64] I'll send in another chapter--tomorrow?
[bogwitch64] Whenever there's room on the docket, slip me in
[anneliese] Good. Of the whole sub, those bothered me the most. Really yanked me out of the story.
[bogwitch64] It went right into the omniscient out of nowhere
[anneliese] I have to sort out the queue, but I think if you send something to Elizabeth, she'll slot it in for you.
[bogwitch64] It stands just fine with the line that came before them
[camidon] Yep, I felt the same way, as I said in my crit. It ruined the tone you had created
[bogwitch64] I'll wait until she gets back from vacation
[camidon] Terri, what's the genesis of this story? Anything really interested.
[anneliese] Send me a note also, just to remind me that it goes into the schedule.
[camidon] oops. Anything really interesting that is.
[bogwitch64] I've spent many, many years researching folklore from around the world
[bogwitch64] It's my passion
[bogwitch64] So I decided to use all this knowledge in a book
[bogwitch64] Every character has a basis in some folktale from either Norse, Celtic, Slavic, Hindu, Christian, Greek/Roman myth
[anneliese] <== loves folklore
[bogwitch64] In this book anyway--
[bogwitch64] I'll use African and some others with the next one
[bogwitch64] The thing is, if you're familiar with the tale, you'll see it in the character or the story itself. If you're not, it's fine
[camidon] That's cool. I used Norse mythology and Wagner Operas a lot for my children's novels.
[bogwitch64] BUT, if you ARE familiar with either story or mythical character, you can see where the story is going and such
[bogwitch64] Ah, cool Chris
[anneliese] Now you really have me chomping at the bit wanting to see more!
[camidon] So what would be your "book jacket" summation of Godseekers? (does that make sense?)
[bogwitch64] ha! book jacket, huh?
[bogwitch64] Summation is not my forte
[bogwitch64] lol
[bogwitch64] LOL Anneliese
[bogwitch64] I'm really having fun with it
[camidon] Like when you pick up a book in the bookstore and read the back cover. What would that be for Godseekers?
[bogwitch64] Book jacket...hmmmm...without writing to impress, I can give you the gist of it
[camidon] I love the idea of hidden mythos is modern novels. It adds so much more depth. The only catch is that hidden mythos can't interfere with the story your trying to tell.
[bogwitch64] Yes, Cam--that has been tough
[bogwitch64] Part of the story being played out is actually the Ramayaman from Hindu mythology
[camidon] You've already impressed us with your dedication to writing, feel free to any other way!
[bogwitch64] The gist of it is, the game is a certain character's way out of 'bondage'
[bogwitch64] He has to play until he wins--which he can't, of course
[bogwitch64] In several mythological stories, there is the chained God that has to free himself but when he does, the end of the world BANGS
[bogwitch64] In Norse mythology, Loki is sort of 'bound' because he caused the death of another (favored) god
[bogwitch64] The fall of Satan, Loki, even Set in Egyptian mythology
[anneliese] (I think the neighbor's dog just found the neighborhood skunk)
[bogwitch64] ey all share many of the same elements. I've combined them into one character--Sim, who has to play the game
[bogwitch64] He's using the kids from the Ren-faire as his 'players'
[bogwitch64] ewwww!!! I hate skunk! One stunk up my basement a few years back
[anneliese] Do the kids have any sense that he is extraordinary?
[anneliese] This is so intriguing!
[bogwitch64] Not yet--
[bogwitch64] :-D, thanks Anneliese!
[bogwitch64] His opponent is the pixie thing in the tree
[camidon] This is really interesting.
[anneliese] How does the knife throwing shadow any of this...or does it?
[bogwitch64] In Celtic mythology, there is a character called Black Annis--that's her
[bogwitch64] The knife throwing scene (which I actually saw once though the guy was probably part of the act) was actually more to set up Keith's character than anything else
[bogwitch64] Thanks, Chris
[camidon] <I have a whopper of a skunk story involving a crushing teenage moment, and the worst skunk smell ever as declared by the cleaners,>
[bogwitch64] Annis has three of the kids on her 'team', Sim has the other three--but the kids don't know they are on opposing teams.
[camidon] <some other time though>
[bogwitch64] LOLOLOL Chris--now THAT is intriguing!
[camidon] One of my characters in my children's novel was the Cymbalist, Cym for short (half made of fire, half human)
[bogwitch64] At first, they're just playing an RPG in Keith's basement--then things get funky
[bogwitch64] Yadda-yadda-yadda, they end up IN the game. They think they have to follow the rules, get through the seven gates and get home. They have no idea that if Sim wins, Boom goes existence as they know it
[anneliese] Keith has noticed Annis...has anyone else at this time?
[bogwitch64] Nope--he and Annis will have a 'special' relationship. LOL
[camidon] Ah ha, things become more clear about chapter 1. Please, do send us the next installment.
[bogwitch64] Oh, cool, Chris!
[anneliese] Yes! We need to see this story play out!
[bogwitch64] will do
[camidon] Oh, he played the cymbals (I'm a succor for puns) and composed his own mass requiems.
[bogwitch64] This is the novel I'm presenting at that writer's workshop on Martha's Vineyard in the fall--I'm nervous
[bogwitch64] LOL, do you like (old) Piers Anthony Xanth novels, Chris?
[camidon] I'll need to read a little closer Chapter 1 again, give it some more time. You've really set up a complex structure..
[camidon] Only read a few, terri (A Spell for Chameleon)
[camidon] The virtual game, the real world, and then the mythyical subtext. Again, the trick is to keep them from interfereing with one another.
[bogwitch64] This is where I need help, Chris and Anneliese--keeping it all straight. I don't have a problem with structure or grammar or that kind of thing. What I worry about is getting the whole idea across. I know what's supposed to be in there and all that--I know the outline and the idea, my reader isn't
[bogwitch64] going to
[bogwitch64] A spell for Chameleon was the best one!
[camidon] Exactly. Recognizing this dilemma is the most important thing
[bogwitch64] That was a major breakthrough for me, Chris
[bogwitch64] RECOGNIZING
[camidon] That's what I heard, so I read it. It was fun, but I was never motivated to read more. Any others I should partake
[bogwitch64] Eh, the first five or so are awesome--then they become tiresome
[anneliese] You'll want to feed us chapters frequently. That way we'll have a better sense of the whole story and be able to see if these things are working.
[bogwitch64] Then there's Terri Pratchet!!! If you love satire, you'll love his stuff.
[anneliese] I agree. The early Xanth stories were much better than the later ones.
[camidon] I'll try to make enough time to give C1 and C2 some thought. I fully understand the difficult of weaving subplots and mythos.
[bogwitch64] Anneliese, I think you're right--it's hard to keep it all straigh when it's piecemeal
[bogwitch64] have a hard time remembering Juanita's story when there are weeks in between
[anneliese] How far along are you with the project?
[bogwitch64] I'll send another chapter in tomorrow and whenever Elizabeth gets it in, she gets it in.
[bogwitch64] I've got the first section done--about 100 pages
[anneliese] And the rest outlined/mapped?
[bogwitch64] The whole thing is outlined, yes
[bogwitch64] I know exactly where it's going and how
[bogwitch64] LOL, the outline and synopsis is 160 pages!
[anneliese] One thing that helped when Elizabeth was sending out her novel was that she included a 3-4 paragraph synopsis of each preceding chapter.
[camidon] Are those double spaced or not?
[camidon] Yeah, good point, Anneliese!
[bogwitch64] That would be helpful, A
[camidon] Those brief synopsises are a big help
[bogwitch64] The synopsis/outline is single spaced but the manuscript is double
[anneliese] You guys are shaming me into outlining
[bogwitch64] lol, it's very necessary for me, A
[camidon] My outlines are similar, Terri. It's nice to know someone else is a meticulous (or is there another word for that...)
[bogwitch64] I was a 'pantser' for years but I have to say, outlining makes the whole process much smoother
[bogwitch64] meticulous=anal lol
[camidon] I agree! A fellow outlining kindred spirit!
[bogwitch64] I often don't stick to the outline but it gives me a place to start, a place to refer to if I stray
[bogwitch64] LOL Chris!
[anneliese] I generally have the whole story written in my head before it comes out on paper, but I acknowledge the value of outlining. I'm going to try it with my next project.
[camidon] I suppose my 25 outlined scenes for the writing challenge short-short didn't give me away, huh?
[bogwitch64] It's worth trying, A.
[bogwitch64] LOL
[bogwitch64] just a little
[anneliese] Not at all! LOL!
[camidon] When it doesn't work, A, feel free to use my name with a few coloful adjectives before it.
[bogwitch64] lol
[camidon]
[anneliese] lol, because you know it's going to work, don't you.
[bogwitch64] I have 19 finished first drafts that I wrote basically without a real outline. The prospect of editing them is DAUNTING!
[bogwitch64] That's why I started outlining so 'meticulously'--less editing in the long run
[camidon] my thoughts exactly.
[bogwitch64] If I never have another idea, I have about 10 years of novels to work with! LOL
[bogwitch64] Wow, this hour went fast!
[anneliese] Oh, my, it did!

[Juanita] Wow. I must be the first one here. First time THAT'S happened
[Juanita] Hi CM
[camidon] Good evening, Juanita
[anneliese] Hi Juanita!
[anneliese] Hi CM!
[Juanita] Hi Anneliese
[camidon] Evening, Anneliese
[anneliese] How is everyone tonight?
[Juanita] good. It's a busy time of year so I'm kind of happy there's a bit of rain. gives me an excuse to sit in the house
[camidon] Running on fumes
[anneliese] Hi Dave!
[camidon] Evening, Dave
[DaveK] Hi guys. Nice sized group today.
[Juanita] Hi Dave. thanks for the crit. I just got it
[anneliese] Same here, CM. Recovering from a weekend board meeting in Minneapolis myself.
[DaveK] No problem Juanita, that's what we're here for.
[camidon] Anneliese, we can inject each other with virtual caffeine. <preparing syringe>
[Juanita] I seem to be getting about 70 percent of the feedback along the vein you sent, Dave. It's too slow.
[anneliese] ::brewing extra-strong espresso::
[camidon] Juanita, I'll be sending mt crit along shortly
[Juanita] The other 30 percent like the detail
[DaveK] I was going to make some smart a## remark about shoes
[Juanita] Thanks, CM
[camidon] How many crits have you got Juanita?
[Juanita] I guess I'll have to find a median that suits me
[anneliese] I liked the story about the shoes, but never felt that I saw the shoes...does that make sense?
[Juanita] Ummmm.... 3 or 4 from SFWW and sic from my Edmonton crit group
[Juanita] Anneliese, do you mean the boots Geoff steals?
[camidon] That's right, Juanita, what suits you IS the most important thing
[anneliese] Yes. I liked the shoe store episode.
[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!
[Elizabeth] hi there!
[Juanita] I don't think I described them. Too many details already, and the theft was more important than the boots
[Juanita] Hi Elizabeth
[camidon] Evebubgm Elizabeth
[anneliese] Except that since the boots are an element of the dance, I wanted to know more about them.
[camidon] whoops--hmm, not getting enough of that virtual caffeine
[Juanita] I'll make a note of that
[Elizabeth] (__)p (__)p (__)p (__)p Triple shots of espresso for the group.
[camidon] Evening Elizabeth
[Elizabeth] plus (___)p an extra shot for Yours Truly.
[Juanita] None for me, thanks. I don't do that coffee stuff
[Elizabeth] shall I substitute tea? Or some other refreshing beverage?
[Elizabeth] I make a mean iced tea.
[anneliese] Breaks out big chocolate bar
[Elizabeth] Unsweetened, thank you very much, I leave that to the drinker.
[camidon] Juanita, my issue with the shoplifting scene is that you don't milk the potential tension well enough.
[Juanita] sounds good. the tea and the chocolate bar
[Elizabeth] {_
[Elizabeth] oops, {_} one tall iced tea for Juanita.
[camidon] As I recall, Chapter 3 had a nice potential set-up for tension with Geoff wrestling with shoplifting shoes. I though it would be better if you waited a chapter before the shoplifing scene to build more expectations.
[DaveK] That was different. My window double spaced the chat and poped up a scroll bar then went back.
[camidon] <mmm Ice Tea, my fav>
[Elizabeth] Mine's been flickering, Dave.
[Elizabeth] Some PHP thing, I suspect.
[anneliese] Hmm...wonder what that is about.
[anneliese] Mine seems fine.
[Elizabeth] good idea, CM.
[camidon] Why not have Geoff not get the boots right away, which anger Chin and Lui? Why not have Trevor tease Geoff about being too chicken to "lift" th eboots
[Elizabeth] Might be nice to up the stakes...do Geoff's parents suspect him of less-than-honest behavior?
[Elizabeth] Is he on probation of some sort, or are the local authorities keeping an eye on him and his buddies?
[DaveK] I agree with CM. It's like the hero in a TV series. You know he's not going to die. Same with Geoff I never expected him to get caught.
[camidon] All of that would be building to a mini-climax of the shoplifting scene, which, I think, you could probably even expand.
[Elizabeth] Or have his little sister threaten to rat him out.
[Elizabeth] Or have the shoplifting attempt go badly awry...and Geoff barely manages to get his own keister out, much less the boots.
[camidon] yeah, Elizabeth, that's a good one two. Involve more characters.
[Elizabeth] Uh oh.
[camidon] Uh oh, we lost her. Quick, quick, more chocolate and tea!
[Elizabeth] PHP seems to have the hiccups tonight.
[Juanita] Hi again.
[Elizabeth] {_} More tea, Juanita. Drink up.
[DaveK] But what does the shoplifting do to advance the plot? Why is it important?
[Juanita] I left because I wasn't able to send in anything!
[anneliese] Good thing I brought lots of chocolate.
[Elizabeth] What I got from the shoplifting scene (and correct me if I'm wrong, Juanita)
[Juanita] It's supposed ot do a few things
[Elizabeth] is that Geoff's involvement with Chin and Lui is semi-criminal....
[Elizabeth] but lifting the boots is definitely criminal.
[Elizabeth] A step further in the wrong direction, as it were.
[Juanita] Show Geoff will follow Chin's orders, demonstrate that Geoff and Trevor made a pretty good criminal pair, show Geoff doesn't know enough to break in new footwear,
[Juanita] It kind of sets the stage for later, when they do get caught lifting something
[Elizabeth] Although I get the impression Geoff's lifted stuff before...he's cool enough about it, and seems to know all of the anti-theft technology.
[camidon] I semi-agree with Dave. The other thing I think the chapter was missing was the underlying intrique. Where's the subculture? Where's the references to the "gangs". I didn't feel like there was enough undercurrents to keep Chapter 4 interesting enough.
[Elizabeth] A first-timer would be freaking inwardly, and probably mess up at least one step.
[Elizabeth] If Geoff doesn't know about breaking in formal shoes...maybe you could make it a little clearer that this is the first nice pair of shoes Geoff's owned.
[camidon] and when you hint at Geoff's nervousness, though he's cool enough to keep it hidden, I never actually felt like he WAS nervous during the shoplifting episode.
[Elizabeth] Or is that not the case?
[Juanita] I don't remember what chapter has them out patroling their 'turf'. Maybe I'll have to try and move that up?
[DaveK] I haven't got any clue as to Geoff's social status.
[Elizabeth] Maybe part of the reason that certain shoe shops are off limits to Geoff and Trevor is that other gangs patrol the area.
[Elizabeth] That would be good to know.
[camidon] Something to consider Juanita would be to begin the novel with a shoplifting--as I recall there was some mentioning of shoplifting, but we never reall saw it like we did in this chapter.
[Elizabeth] I agree with DaveK...what is Geoff's social status?
[Elizabeth] I know he's not rich, but is he middle-class-wanna-be-a-gangsta?
[Juanita] I ttried to hint that the off-limits for stealing from was a place operated by the higher-ups of his gang.
[Elizabeth] Blue collar (or whatever color collar a lower-class colonist wears) scrambling to get ahead?
[DaveK] We should know that by now.
[Elizabeth] Or from a poorer family, in the "bad" part of the colony?
[camidon] I'm not so sure I agree with that. We get a pretty thorough description of Geoff's apartment space, which implies a certain type of social status
[camidon] He's not rich, but he's sure not poor.
[anneliese] But doesn't tell us how it ranks overall in the station.
[Juanita] Thank you, CM. I was wondering if that message was undecipherable
[camidon] I'd make that hinting very direct
[Elizabeth] Which, IMO, gives him a little less incentive to do the gang thing. If he's genuinely poor, or outcast for some other reason, he's got much more motive to hang with the gang.
[camidon] That's true Anneliese. There really isn't much of a reference frame for social status.
[Elizabeth] Or is this something he does just to avoid trouble with the high-level gang members?
[Elizabeth] He does seem to have a "path of least resistance" approach to life.
[camidon] <this is a test>
[anneliese] Got the test
[Juanita] Yes, Elizabeth. He has that until 3/4 through the book
[Elizabeth] Which may be a problem for a protagonist...usually the protagonist struggles with something or someone.
[camidon] That's a nice way to put it, Elizabeth. He's border line cowardly--can't really stand up for himself
[DaveK] At this point I don't care about Geoff. If he wins or looses, I don't care.
[Juanita] It's also well into the book before he discovers how and why he was recuited into the gang
[Elizabeth] They fight, resist, act on their situation...even if what they're doing is misguided or wrong.
[camidon] <got a weird pop-up that said the page had timed-out>
[Elizabeth] But it's very hard, as a writer, to work with a protagonist who just goes along with the flow.
[Juanita] I had that earlier, CM
[Elizabeth] Who reacts rather than acts.
[Juanita] I guess I have to work on making him more empathic.
[Elizabeth] I want to see Geoff yanked out of his complacency, his path of least resistance.
[Elizabeth] I want to see a struggle of some sort...even if it takes a lot of inner struggle
[Elizabeth] before he has the incentive, or the courage, to make a move in the outer world.
[Juanita] He doesn't really do anything to change his situation until that 3/4 mark. Maybe I can put more internal struggle in as he works himself up to that point.
[Elizabeth] At this stage I can't tell whether Geoff wants to change his situation or not.
[Elizabeth] He vacillates between how much he hates Chin, and trying to please Chin during the Simba practice.
[anneliese] Hi Teri!
[bogwitch64] Hey all!
[Elizabeth] You're showing his ambivalence, which is good, but you have to be careful not to make him too wishy-washy.
[Elizabeth] Hello Teri!
[Juanita] Hi Teri
[Elizabeth] congrats on the workshop!
[anneliese] It seems to me that he ought to hate Chin, but begin to love dancing...which would create conflict.
[camidon] Evening, Teri
[bogwitch64] Oh, thanks!!!
[bogwitch64] i'm very excited
[DaveK] WHy was he picked as a partner for Chin?
[Juanita] I never even thought of that, Anneliese. In my sequel (which I wrote first) it's five years later and he still doesn't dance.
[Elizabeth] Or realize that he hates Chin even more as a result, and decide, "I have to get out of here somehow. Now how?
[Elizabeth] :::evil grin::: Maybe, in the sequel, one of the new recruits can innocently ask Geoff to dance with her...to Simba music.
[Juanita] For punishment, Dave. That's all it is until chin decides Geoff is capable of really dancing
[Elizabeth] >
[Juanita] and competing
[bogwitch64] I was a little confused about that myself, why Chin chose Geoff
[anneliese] He can be very conflicted, because his body loves the dance, but everything else about him is disgusted/offended/opposed to it.
[Elizabeth] Seems kind of an odd form of punishment...self-defeating for Chin, isn't it?
[Elizabeth] He seems to genuinely care about the dance and winning the competition.
[DaveK] If Chin really wants to win he would pick a partner that wants to dance and practice.
[Elizabeth] It would make more sense, if I were Chin, to make Geoff run errands that would harm the competition.
[Juanita] Yes, but at this point he is toying with Geoff, not really serious about dancing
[bogwitch64] True, Dave
[bogwitch64] Unless he's masochistic as well as sadistic
[Elizabeth] Ask him to rough up somebody...some act that might finally get Geoff to say, "enough".
[camidon] Juanita, Have you ever thought of using other POV's in the story? A section from Chin or Lui's perspective? Or are you set on Geoff as the only perspective. Multiple perspectives is an easy way to add mystery. When the reader knows something the main character does not, it sets-up...
[anneliese] That point doesn't come through, Juanita...I wish it would.
[camidon] ...future expectations of conflict and resolution.
[Elizabeth] I got the impression that Chin is like one of the dance competitors in Strictly Ballroom...super-competitive and extremely focused on the dance.
[Juanita] Actually, I hadn't, CM. It might be a way to solve a few issues.
[bogwitch64] I did too Elizabeth
[bogwitch64] Doesn't he actually talk about the competition and being ready and worthy etc?
[anneliese] ditto.
[Elizabeth] What if little sister is big on the dancing, and Chin threatens to use her as a partner if Geoff doesn't shape up?
[camidon] I felt that Chin was antagonizing Geoff, but never that he was simply punishing him/toying with Geoff. This is where geoff's innocent (relatively) perspectives restricts our view. If he doesn't see the "toying" we're less likely to see it too.
[Juanita] Chin is, yes. I see that came across well
[Elizabeth] I suspect Chin's dance scene involves much more sinister motives, and if Geoff is aware of them?
[bogwitch64] brb
[Elizabeth] Trying to keep relatively innocent sister out of the gang/drug/party girl mess Geoff's gotten himself into...
[Juanita] At this point, Geoff isn't aware of too much
[DaveK] Maybe Chin is testing Geoff's stealing abilities. Have him steel shoes, a costume, ...
[Elizabeth] You had a line in the first chapter about that threat, but I would like to see it more strongly played.
[Elizabeth] Especially if little sister is pestering him to let her hang out with the cool kids.
[Juanita] Dave, It's more like Chin testing how well Geoff will follow orders
[Juanita] know he's a good thief
[Juanita] Lost some there. They know he's a good thief
[Elizabeth] is he considering making Geoff a junior member of the gang?
[Elizabeth] Is this some sort of initiation?
[Juanita] A good thief isuseless if he doesn't follow orders
[Elizabeth] Or do Chin and Lui consider him a liability?
[bogwitch64] ok, sorry
[Juanita] Yes, Elizabeth. His mouth is making him a liability
[Juanita] What? Teri
[bogwitch64] LOL, I meant, sorry to have stepped away. I'm back now
[Juanita] Oh welcome back
[Elizabeth] So, in terms of gang security...they need to either ascertain that he's a trustworthy and valuable member, or get rid of him.
[Juanita] Pretty well
[bogwitch64] I don't know if it's me or not but I'm a little fuzzy on the whole gang thing--where Geoff falls into the whole scene, how--his parents know? Or don't know? Is this a societal thing that ALL kids do at some point?
[Elizabeth] Because a half-hearted gang member with a big mouth is a real danger to these guys.
[camidon] Juanita, I think you need to find a way to get this subtext to the surface. It's interesting, intriguing, and makes me want to read. But the subtext has not been in the last few chapters, and so the story is lagging.
[Elizabeth] I'd expect them to threaten him with physical violence if he doesn't shape up...
[Elizabeth] or dangle the "big shot" carrot in front of him, if he can just perform these assignments to Chin's and Lui's satisfaction.
[camidon] I.e., Chin's plot, the gang, etc
[anneliese] I'd also want to see more scenes where his mouth gets him into trouble.
[Elizabeth] (Sorry, I've been overdosing on Mafia documentaries lately.)
[Elizabeth] Okay, now I'm getting the "timed out" messages.
[Elizabeth] Somebody feed PHP some sugar and have it drink a glass of water backwards.
[Juanita] Maybe iced tea?
[Elizabeth] I agree with CM...I definitely would like to know more of the gang subtext. Geoff's got to have some idea of what's going on, or at least some guesses.
[anneliese] I wonder if I should be looking for a different chat room software.
[bogwitch64] My screen just keeps blinking...
[Elizabeth] Basic curiosity about what Chin and Lui are up to would make him more sympathetic, even if we see that curiosity is only going to get him in trouble.
[Juanita] Okay, CM. I thought I had all that in there, but maybe it's not stated clearly enough
[Elizabeth] I think back to the Poe quote (I think it was Poe) that we can all relate to the human instinct to search out every last corner of the dark and nasty cave,
[DaveK] Tired of getting beatup yet, Juanita? We can pick on someone else.
[Elizabeth] no matter what horrors are lurking there. Because that curiosity is a defining human trait.
[Elizabeth] I do like this story, I really do. Critiquing it is like talking to a student who you know is really very smart,
[camidon] Nope, Juanita, we're not getting it. Either state it more clearly, or perhaps try a POV from Chin or Lui's perspective and see what happens. One way or another, bring out he darknessl it's interesting!
[Juanita] No, but thanks Dave. I have a thick skin, and this improves my story, how can I object?
[Elizabeth] and could ace the class if he or she worked a little harder at it...
[DaveK] Atta girl. Keep at it.
[camidon] That Poe quote (if Poe) is just a little too appropriate for me...
[DaveK] I like that chapter in Chin's POV idea.
[Elizabeth] Yes, Juanita, show us more of the underbelly.
[Juanita] So do I. I'm just wondering when to do it.
[Juanita] ...what part of the story to give to Chin
[DaveK] BUt I wonder about writing a story where 3/4 of it has the main character as a wiene. Maybe start later or have him step up sooned.
[bogwitch64] A good place to give him some POV space might be after he tells him to get the boots--get a little of that why in there, the true motive
[Juanita] Maybe I have to make him less of a pushover thorughout.
[bogwitch64] After Geoff leaves, stay in the room with Lui and Chin, get some dialogue going
[Elizabeth] Yeah, I want to see Geoff grow a spine earlier.
[Elizabeth] Even if he doesn't get to use it until later.
[camidon] Note: Juanita, my emails don't seem to want to leave my outbox tonight, so it may be a few days before you get the critique. Fear not though, it's in the process of sending, it's just my outbox seems to have clogged momentarily. Hmmm. Searching for some Drano...
[DaveK] At least have him care about something. He can be a wienie with Chin but not with some other problem
[Juanita] Good idea. I can't remember. did this chap have trevor get beat up so Geoff would stop acting like he can't remember the steps?
[Elizabeth] no! not the Drano!
[bogwitch64] Not this one
[Elizabeth] Maybe Geoff would do something brave for Trevor's sake, if not his own.
[Juanita] good, point, Dave.
[bogwitch64] I agree with Dave--Geoff needs to have that one thing he cares about
[DaveK] So we can care about him.
[bogwitch64] one principle or one person or one something
[camidon] Warning, though Juanita. If you do give some POV to Chin, you'll need to do it a few times. And the info given by them must be something that no other character can give. However, I definitely think you should try it.
[Juanita] obviously, his sister isn't enough. Or that situation isn't immediate enough?
[Elizabeth] I think maybe Chin needs to threaten Trevor. That seems to be the most important relationship for Geoff right now.
[Juanita] Yes, I'd have to give something / plot line/ to follow Chin wiht. Maybe the people smuggling?
[anneliese] I disagree, CM, I'm uncomfortable with having Chin's POV directly, although I'd like it to show in his actions from time to time.
[Juanita] That wuld be a good one.
[DaveK] Geoff could spy on Chin.
[DaveK] Maybe plant a bug.
[Juanita] You have ESP, Dave. that's what Geoff does after he goes to the cops
[camidon] I think that's a valid concern, Anneliesse. Once a new POV is inserted, that opens a whole new can of chili-fried worms.
[DaveK] What per cent of books are doen from one POV?
[Juanita] I can try it. I could also work at making a single POV work better. One of my favorite Andre Norton books is a single POV and has obviious blanks where things are happening and the protagonist doesn't know
[Elizabeth] True. But maybe Geoff knows more about the gang's activities than he lets on now.
[Elizabeth] And perhaps part of the action is him using his curiosity (and his big mouth) to figure out the rest of the picture...
[bogwitch64] Strays into omnipotent, Juanita?
[Elizabeth] if he's at least trying to figure things out, learn what's going on, he's taking action of a sort.
[Elizabeth] He's acting more like a protagonist, especially if what he learns spurs him into action.
[Juanita] No. But there's clues that a reader can figure out even if the youthful protag doesn't.
[bogwitch64] It's bedtime for bogwitch
[DaveK] BYe bye.
[camidon] Sorry all, but have to run. All the best to ou.
[anneliese] Glad you could make it.
[Juanita] Thanks for coming.
[Elizabeth] good night, Teri and CM, glad you could make it!
[camidon] Juanita, please send us more, especially if the critique slos are so woefully short
[anneliese] This hour went fast!
[camidon] gnight
[DaveK] Bye Chrus.
[bogwitch64] Night all! Good luck with the story, Juanita. Thanks Elizabeth and Anneliese
[Juanita] I see we're over the time. thanks for all your input
[DaveK] Bye Chris.
[anneliese] Yes, Juanita, I got your email, and the 4th week should be fine.
[Elizabeth] And the reader knowing that something bad is coming, especially if Geoff hasn't quite figured it out, can really ratchet up the suspense.
[Elizabeth] I like the idea of narrative "gaps" in Geoff's knowledge.
[Elizabeth] I think that could work quite well.
[anneliese] Nighters CM & Teri
[Juanita] Not sure what that means, Anneliese
[Juanita] Good night, CM & Teri
[anneliese] You asked if you could have more critique spots, the 4th week of the month, I though.
[Juanita] Do I get the fourth week of the next four months?
[anneliese] 4th week for the next 4 months.
[Juanita] Works for me.
[DaveK] One month between chapters. Maybe even my memory could handle that.
[Elizabeth] Keep the chapters coming, Juanita. I want to see what comes next.
[Juanita] that should take us to the first major plot twist in this story.
[anneliese] I'll check the schedule to verify it. (went home early today).
[Juanita] Thank you, all. Chats like this really help a story.
[anneliese] A good chat tonight. I'll post the log.
[Elizabeth] I'm glad this is helpful to you, Juanita. The story and the setup are intriguing...we just need to see more of the grimy details.
[Juanita] Good night all.
[Elizabeth] And a bit more menace.
[Elizabeth] Yay! A postable chat!
[DaveK] Good night. Next week.

[camidon] Lalalalalalalalalala
[camidon] Is it AOL tonight? Or is it here? Lalalalalala
[camidon] Testing. Lalalala
[camidon] Lalalala We shall wait and see for a short time, lalalala
[anneliese] Hi CM!
[camidon] Good Evening, Anneliese! How are you?
[anneliese] Good. You? Was just about to start humming
[camidon] Sleepy. Have to wake up early to get to new job. Nonetheless, that cannot keep me away from these chats (when I remember)
[anneliese] Hi bogwitch!
[anneliese] Hi Dave!
[DaveK] Hi guys.
[bogwitch64] Hey Anne
[camidon] testing color
[bogwitch64] Hey Dave and Cam
[anneliese] Terri, right?
[camidon] Evening Dave, bog!
[bogwitch64] yup
[anneliese] Or do you prefer bog?
[bogwitch64] Terri is me.
[anneliese] Or witch?
[bogwitch64] LOL
[bogwitch64] I'll answer to anything
[rcs] Hey
[anneliese] Well, I have AOL open in case someone wants to IM me, but I think this is our place tonight.
[anneliese] Hi rcs! Long time no see!
[camidon] Wow, nice crowd. Evening everyone
[anneliese] <-- apologizes for missing the last couple chats.
[bogwitch64] I'm so bad. I always forget, even with the reminders
[bogwitch64] d'oh
[DaveK] Are we going to keep this civil, or will this be another chat that we can't post?
[anneliese] It's hard for me to remember all the time too!
[anneliese] You tell me, Dave!
[camidon] I don't think anyone made last week <correct me if I'm wrong> I sure forgot, but it was a "holiday"
[bogwitch64] Let's see if that helps
[bogwitch64] whew
[DaveK] I signe in but no one was here. Then Bob signed in after I left.
[camidon] Well, Dave, with you me and Anneliese here, the probability of a nice, clean chat diminishes. But... Elizabeth is not to aggravate our aggressive imaginations.
[bogwitch64] My screen was blinking then it froze. I'm not used to mozilla
[Elizabeth] hello there!
[Elizabeth] I forgot about the chat Monday as well, CM.
[bogwitch64] Hey elizabeth
[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!
[Elizabeth] There's nobody in the AOL chat room, so I think I avoided any major confusion.
[Elizabeth] I'll give AOL a few more minutes, then check out.
[bogwitch64] That whole thing with AOL sucks. Why the heck are they doing away with the hosted chats?
[anneliese] Sorry to hear that, Terri. I'm using Firefox...I think it's only messed up once for me.
[bogwitch64] I think I'm just not used to it, anneliese
[Elizabeth] I can't figure it out, Terri. Probably (I'm being cynical here) money related.
[camidon] Uh, oh, Dave, Elizabeth the instigator is here, so our imaginations made run wild again...
[bogwitch64] My husband's IT guy swears by it
[DaveK] BIggest turnout in a long time. Any special topic?
[bogwitch64] Elizabeth, that's what I'm hearing
[Elizabeth] Like when they let their freelancers go and started relying on "local experts" to provide blurbs on entertainment, shopping, etc. for free
[Elizabeth] After that point, of course, the local guides went downhill.
[bogwitch64] Too bad, really. Ah well
[camidon] Anneliese mentioned a potential "squid" chat in the email, but I'm open to anything.
[anneliese] AOL is getting farther and farther from the communities that it once fostered...don't know if that will turn out to be a good thing or a bad thing.
[Elizabeth] I still wonder why they did away with the Writers Club. That was one of the best online communities I've ever been in,
[DaveK] I think they are having monet problems, and with all the free e-mail online now it can't help.
[Elizabeth] and it had tons of helpful stuff on the boards, etc.
[Elizabeth] Personally, I think AOL is shooting itself in the foot.
[bogwitch64] That's usually the way it goes, Elizabeth, unfortunately. Everyone does the same thing thinking their results will somehow be miraculously different
[anneliese] They won't be the first to do that.
[anneliese] On the other hand, I rather like this chat group better
[bogwitch64] Ok, so now this chat is in here every Monday night?
[anneliese] We'll just have to look into advertising in other venues.
[DaveK] The advantage with AOL is that we can get new members.
[Elizabeth] True. No restrictions.
[bogwitch64] Whether the open chat or the crit chat?
[camidon] AOL, bah humbug. We've gone and created our own community! 6 people at a chat! That's starting to rival our old SFWW chat days with <cringe> protocol. Proto-what? yes, protocol.
[bogwitch64] lol
[anneliese] AOL will let us use the chat rooms, but not host any more, as I understand it.
[bogwitch64] I HATE protocol
[bogwitch64] So really, what will the difference be?
[bogwitch64] That's what I don't get
[camidon] I'm starting to show my "age" Don't mind me, though, I'm often lost in tangents.
[bogwitch64] The rooms are still open, everyone is still free to go including the 'hosts' under different names
[bogwitch64] So what's the hubub?
[anneliese] I don't know if the schedules will be kept up, though. I kind of doubt it.
[Elizabeth] It's going to be more of a free-for-all, IMHO.
[Elizabeth] Nobody will have a scheduled time.
[bogwitch64] Like Author's Lounge
[bogwitch64] gadzooks, what a zoo that is!
[anneliese] It will all be like the public chat rooms.
[Elizabeth] Which I avoid like the plague.
[anneliese] So, I think I'll stay here, thanks.
[bogwitch64] Technically, groups used to meeting at a specific place and a specific time can still do so
[DaveK] Bogwitch, rcs, how did you find SFWW?
[camidon] yes, this chatroom is very nice. Three cheers to Anneliese
[bogwitch64] Dave, how do I find it as in how do I like it? Or how do I physically find it?
[DaveK] Find it to join.
[anneliese] It's the folks in the chatroom that make it nice
[rcs] I was trying to find a way to waste time in a class and it came up in a search engine.
[bogwitch64] lol rcs
[bogwitch64] I actually followed a friend into the AOL chatroom and ended up joining this room
[DaveK] So 50% of our new members came from AOL. ???
[camidon] Hey, I googled SFWW, and our site came up first. First time it hasn't been buried, or behind the "dead" sfwwmoder site
[anneliese] More or less, Dave.
[Elizabeth] Our membership right now is about 50-50. Half on AOL, half on other Internet providers.
[anneliese] Cool! That's fantastic, CM! I had no idea!
[bogwitch64] I can't get to this room through AOL, though
[bogwitch64] have to come through mozilla firefox
[anneliese] I don't think the AOL browsers fully support php. (which is why the chatroom doesn't work under AOL)
[bogwitch64] The good thing about not using AOL is that I don't have people IMing me to death
[camidon] We're still a ways down if you search for "Science Fiction Writing Workshop" or some such iteration
[DaveK] I never got into the IM thing.
[bogwitch64] Dave, while my daughter was in college, it was awesome. Lower phone bills!
[anneliese] That is going to take some time, and probably require us to look at the website pages again, CM
[Elizabeth] Yeah, the chatter goes down a lot once you're off of AOL.
[Elizabeth] I have IM, but never turn it on. Otherwise my husband and sister-in-law see I'm online and start bombarding me with messages.
[anneliese] So, does anyone want to talk squid?
[DaveK] Squid squid squid
[Elizabeth] People just assume that if you're online, you're wanting to chat. Not always the case with me.
[Elizabeth] Sure. Calamari me!
[bogwitch64] on AOL, I can turn on my away message but then my daughter can't get to me either. LoL
[DaveK] Chris, what was in the dots?
[bogwitch64] squid it
[bogwitch64] squid?
[bogwitch64] anyone...anyone...Beuller...
[DaveK] I'm here.
[anneliese] Well, since all three authors are here...would one of you like to say something about the challenge first?
[camidon] In the dots? what do you mean, dave?
[DaveK] I missed the start of it, but it was fun.
[DaveK] Chris, At the end you say -- You mean ...
[DaveK] I couln't figure out who or what the squid queen was.
[Elizabeth] I enjoyed it, but looking at my contribution now, it's going to need a major rewrite.
[DaveK] Or do I have my authors mixed up?
[Elizabeth] I enjoyed CM's and Dave's stories. Thought Dave's interpretation of "date the squid" was particularly clevel.
[Elizabeth] clever...oops.
[bogwitch64] I wish I hadn't trashed mine. Then again, it wasn't sci-fi or fantasy, it was a small time mob thing
[Elizabeth] And I enjoyed the way George manipulates his way into a Crying Game date. LOL!
[anneliese] <--wishes Terri hadn't trashed hers either.
[bogwitch64]
[DaveK] Thanks, Elizabeth. I'v had time travel on the mind so date started me there.
[camidon] Not sure what you mean, dave. <no pun intended>
[Elizabeth] Yeah, I would have enjoyed it, Terri.
[bogwitch64] Chris, is that Chris as in Christofer or Christine?
[camidon] A statement of denial; I don't normally infest my characters with pornographic perversions, but after hanging out with Elizabeth and bantering about this whole date the squid thing, one thing led to another...
[anneliese] I liked all three. Especially as they were all totally different.
[bogwitch64] I figure Elizabeth and Anneliese are female and Dave's a guy but cam and rcs are mysteries to me
[camidon] That would be Christopher. I also sign my emails CM
[anneliese] Don't you have the little symbols by the chatters list?
[bogwitch64] That's my son's name--but with an f instead of a ph
[anneliese] rcs=ross
[bogwitch64] Thanks, Chris
[bogwitch64] ok, so rcs is a guy too
[DaveK] Chris, you say - "Iris Greeble doesn't have any daughters only. . ." Was she really a. . .
[bogwitch64] Now I feel better. Androgeny confuses me. :-D
[Elizabeth] sure, blame all of the depravity on me.
[DaveK] What are those last three dots.
[camidon] Terri, Dave and I had a chance to meet in person in CO, and he hadn't a clud to my gender either. I was his "blind" date and made his wife a little jealous. <just kidding>
[anneliese] <--- likes it with the dots.
[bogwitch64] hahahahaa!
[bogwitch64] that's hilarious!
[bogwitch64] Poor wife
[camidon] Ah, now I got ya, Dave.
[camidon] Was she really a... man.
[bogwitch64] Anyone else in here know one another in the real world?
[Elizabeth] Although, personally, I would have liked to see a flash of tentacle.
[anneliese] Elizabeth and I met once.
[bogwitch64] lol E
[Elizabeth] Long ago.
[camidon] Though a "Squid" interpretation works fine by me!
[anneliese] LOL, Elizabeth, that's what I was thinking!
[bogwitch64] Ah, that's nice
[Elizabeth] "What lovely...hair...you have. That is hair, isn't it?"
[bogwitch64] Being a Jersey Italian raised during those glorious Godfather years in the 1970's, I automatically thought "the Squid" as in a mob name
[bogwitch64] It's always THE before a nickname...makes it more dangerous sounding. LOL
[camidon] Maybe I'll slip my Georgie Boy a tentacle at the end. That craziness sure fits the rest of the story
[Elizabeth] LOL, CM, that would be perfect!
[anneliese] As we goofed around with the concept in another chat, that's how we saw "the Squid" also, Terri.
[Elizabeth] Benny the Squid.
[bogwitch64] :-D
[anneliese] Jerry the Squid.
[anneliese] (sorry)
[bogwitch64] I wondered how the topic came up
[Elizabeth] A big, slimy goomba enforcer who turns a very interesting shade of red when he's angry...
[DaveK] When my step son was a teen "squid" was the affection term of derision.
[bogwitch64] lol
[Elizabeth] I think we were discussing a story set in a post-energy-crisis world,
[anneliese] And the reason for the challenge was that Elizabeth and I were left alone in a chatroom one Monday evening...
[bogwitch64] West coast, Dave?
[Elizabeth] where people traveling on ships would have to contribute footpower to keep the ship moving.
[anneliese] Yea, Elizabeth, that was kind of how it started.
[DaveK] From PA near Scranton. But now in Fort Collins Co.
[camidon] Elizabeth, I haven't got any comments out to you (or Dave) but I liked your character's transformations. Sure, they were a little predictable, but you added some nice twists. I was into the characters, which says a lot for a silly assignment like this.
[Elizabeth] And slackers were threatened with "row/pedal harder or you'll date the squid".
[bogwitch64] Ah! I love it!
[Elizabeth] I think the story needs a little more development--the resolution was a little too quick.
[bogwitch64] Dave, ah, I thought squid was a west coast term
[Elizabeth] I might go darker on the rewrite. Have Brian go more squid like.
[anneliese] I loved how you did Brian's rages and color shifts.
[Elizabeth] submariners refer to squids--but I don't remember what they mean by it.
[bogwitch64] They were all good, especially given the short time in which they were written
[DaveK] Could be, Califonians come through here a lot.
[Elizabeth] thanks, Anneliese. :::blushes:::
[camidon] That's one heck of a round-about way for an idea to pop-up, but that's the nature or writing. The best ideas come from the strangest sources, including late-nite net chats.
[DaveK] Marines call navy people squids. Navy people call marines jar heads.
[bogwitch64] Marines ARE navy! LOL. That's funny
[DaveK] At some point I spouted off tha it was impossible to write a time travel story with any urgency in it. So I had to prove myself wrong.
[anneliese] Dave, I liked your cult of the squid...I'd love to see that aspect expanded.
[Elizabeth] yeah, but don't ever mention that to a Marine.
[camidon] E, if I were to offer a nit about your sub from my perspective, it's that you could develop Suze a little more.
[Elizabeth] yeah, I thought the cult of the squid was a great idea. I would love to see that developed.
[bogwitch64] LOL Elizabeth
[bogwitch64] you got that right
[Elizabeth] I'm thinking either Suze has to be a much tougher person to deal with Brian's metamorphosis, or she runs screaming.
[camidon] She was a little too much "stock" responses. Loving, leaving, Brian I love you, I want to helo you.
[Elizabeth] And doesn't return his phone calls, ever.
[camidon] Give her some quirks of her own (other than loving a squid)
[DaveK] I had to come up with some reason that a squid was important, and what easier reason for nonsensical behavior than reloigion.
[camidon] I'd go with the first one, make her tougher, but also give her some more interesting details. She doesn't need to match or top Brian, but she could probably come close.
[anneliese] I think it depends on how long the metamorphosis takes...if it is very sudden, or slow, will say a lot about her character.
[bogwitch64] Good thinking,Dave
[anneliese] And, CM that squid festival was just too fun!
[DaveK] I can see Fantasy ans SF getting three stories about squid at the same time. They'll think it is a cult.
[camidon] <tangent; I now work with a guy whose awfully Brian squid like, except he has huge, thick paper-weight glasses. Kind of a creepy coincidence>
[anneliese] Even funnier, Dave, if we could manage to send them 5 or 6.
[camidon] That would be great, Dave. We should all do that, send them in at once, if nothing else, for our own darn amusement!
[camidon] Absolutely Anneliese.
[DaveK] That would be fun. Is there a better mag?
[Elizabeth] lol! Squid attack!
[camidon] Thanks, A, I had a fun time just tossing in weird squid stuff into the festival. If I had had more time, I would have liked to write a scene where the reader actually was immersed in the actual festical games, rides carnival atmosphere in all its weirdness.
[bogwitch64] That would be some freak show, C
[camidon] We'd have to get Bob F to particpate, simply because he go that response from F and SF that said: "This is the strangest darn thing I've ever read!" from Gordon van Gelder himself.
[anneliese] I got such a great image of this small-town neighborhood street festival with rides, and everything, all with a squid theme. Loved it!
[bogwitch64] was that a good strangest thing or a bad strangest thing??
[DaveK] Did he ever post that story here?
[Elizabeth] I wonder.
[camidon] Yeah, Dave, It was a Moosah world story. Can't remember when
[camidon] Well, it was fom Gelder himself, so my take was good.
[camidon] It made it past Gelder's little minions to his desk.
[DaveK] Except he didn't buy it.
[bogwitch64] little minions. LOL
[bogwitch64] I love that word
[Elizabeth] Yeah, usually stories get rejected by Gelder's minion.
[bogwitch64] It says so much
[Elizabeth] So if Gordon read it, it at least got to the second round.
[camidon] Hey, thanks, again Anneliese. That's nice to know. <okay, okay, now where's the bad news! :P)
[Elizabeth] I've only gotten one response from Gordon (a rejection) out of the dozen or so stories I've sent to SF&F.
[anneliese] LOL! Does there have to be bad news?
[camidon] No, of course not, A! But we're writers! And we expect rejection!
[camidon] I think I may have gotten 2, E of the many...
[anneliese] (also loved the line, "gorgeous long legs--very squid like"
[bogwitch64] You know what would be a good (for everyone!) exercise? Do a crit wherein we ONLY pick out the good stuff and remark upon THAT.
[bogwitch64] LOL
[camidon] I think that would actually be a very good exercise, especially for me.
[bogwitch64] I know picking out the stuff that's 'wrong' is much more helpful but sometimes we forget to mention the good stuff. I know I'm a culprit myself! I'm brutal!!!
[anneliese] Same here...we should try that sometime.
[camidon] hehe, that one makes me chuckle still.
[anneliese] Naw, you're not that brutal! Besides, it's nice having someone in the group who nit-picks so well
[camidon] So who wants to volunteer for the "death by niceness" critique slot?
[bogwitch64] teehee, I do nit-pick
[bogwitch64] LOL Chris
[DaveK] We should do that to bogwitch.
[anneliese] It might be best to do a "death by niceness" to a challenge piece.
[bogwitch64] I think that's a great idea, A
[anneliese] Where there are at least several subs to compare and contrast.
[Elizabeth] Death By A Thousand Huggy-Bears.
[bogwitch64] lol
[anneliese] LOL
[DaveK] That might make me write so that finding the "good" parts would be hard.
[camidon] No worse than an editor, Terri. If a story's going to make it in the pros, it's got to make it here first.
[bogwitch64] I'm not ready to die!!!
[bogwitch64] Very true
[camidon] The Care-Bear critique.
[camidon] I agree, Anneliese, perhaps for the next challenge we decide to do. That would be a got time to do it.
[DaveK] A "write as bad as you can" with a only the good parts critique challange.
[bogwitch64] How's the crit list looking, E and A? I got an email saying it's kinda slim pickin's?
[bogwitch64] lol Dave
[anneliese] But I don't think we'll announce that it's a Care-Bear critique until AFTER the subs are received.
[bogwitch64] Ah! Anneliese! You're insidious!!! LOL, great idea!!!
[anneliese] Well, I try ::blushing::
[camidon] <pulling out the prod> Yes, Terri, feel free to jump into the critique slot queue.
[bogwitch64] I don't think I've done four yet...have I???
[camidon] To do that Dave, you just have to participate in NaNoWriMo.
[anneliese] Yes, do send something in...else you'll all be subjected to more Chrysalis.
[DaveK] Did you do any squid critiques?
[anneliese] I think you have...or you are very close, Terri.
[bogwitch64] I don't think I did the squid ones.
[bogwitch64] I know I did one for Bob and two for Juanita
[anneliese] and one for me.
[bogwitch64] ctually, I did three for Juanita but one was the first chapter she sent before I joined
[bogwitch64] Oh yeah! I did yours too!
[camidon] Bah, you made some chats, Terri. That counts in my eyes!
[anneliese] So, yes, you qualify.
[bogwitch64] LOL
[bogwitch64] Yay!
[bogwitch64] What's open?
[DaveK] Oh yeah, that Word one. Please use text.
[bogwitch64] Word what?
[anneliese] Pretty much everything. As soon as you can send Elizabeth something, she can put it in the queue.
[bogwitch64] Oh, that, yes
[DaveK] MS word. It always takes me a lot to read it.
[bogwitch64] I don't know how to use text
[Elizabeth] The critique you sent, Terri...it was the original story with your comments inserted. AOL compressed the file, which made reading it a bit difficult, especially for non-AOL users.
[anneliese] So a "save as"
[bogwitch64] I can send something anytime. Was anyone warned that I write fantasy, not sci-fi??
[bogwitch64] Ohhhhh! Well that was rude of me!!! Sorry, I had no idea.
[Elizabeth] For critiques, it's sometimes easier (and a space saver) to cut and paste the parts you want to correct into a new e-mail.
[Elizabeth] Our definition of SF is pretty loose, Terri. We've read a lot of fantasy and some horror as well.
[bogwitch64] I'm pretty computer illiterate. If it's not Word or AOL, I'm dead in the water!
[camidon] Consider us warned now. Besides E writes a lot or fantasy and runs this joint!
[DaveK] WHere do transgender squid fall?
[bogwitch64] Yay!
[anneliese] I'm afraid to guess, Dave, lol!
[bogwitch64] Ok, I'll work on it tomorrow and see what I can figure out.
[bogwitch64] A chapter OK?
[camidon] Dave, how about under the "Kafka" category
[DaveK] You can use word just cut and paste it into AOL.
[bogwitch64] right into the body of the email, right?
[Elizabeth] yes.
[DaveK] Yeap.
[bogwitch64] gotcha
[bogwitch64] Ok, I'm going to head out now. I gotta be up early with the kiddos
[bogwitch64] Thanks for an enjoyable hour, all!
[camidon] What about you, Ross, anything in your writing queue?
[DaveK] Bye.
[anneliese] Thanks for joining us, Terri.
[bogwitch64] sleep sweet!!
[anneliese] Niters.
[camidon] night Terri

[DaveK] Hu guys

[DaveK] Hi is what I ment

[anneliese] Hi Dave!

[anneliese] Hi Juanita!

[Juanita] Hi everyone

[Juanita] This is new.

[DaveK] This is operating upside down today. Last week the new messages were on the bottom.

[anneliese] I'm playing with it.

[Juanita] Does anyone know how to make the latest messages go back to the bottom of the screen?

[anneliese] CM thought it worked better for him this way.

[anneliese] I can switch it back.

[Juanita] Ohl Well. In that case, I'll play with you.

[Juanita] could be CM's just a little upside down?

[DaveK] BRB, I'm switching browser windows.

[anneliese] They should switch back, I think.

[anneliese] Well, I don't understand this too much

[DaveK] OK it's on the bottom now.

[Juanita] We'll manage.

[anneliese] Maybe if you left and returned as Dave has, it will reverse.

[Juanita] The only advantage to having the latest line on the bottom is that then it is beside the typing window.

[DaveK] Is that something you can manage in your profile?

[Juanita] Okay, I'll try that.

[anneliese] I wish

[Juanita] Hey! That worked

[Juanita] I thought of another advantage. This way us bifocal biddies don't have to tilt our heads back to focus on the top line

[DaveK] I agree with both.

[Juanita] So, shall we talk writing?

[DaveK] Sounds good.

[Juanita] I'm trying to start a new project and have done a page and a half in two weeks

[anneliese] brb

[DaveK] Is that chapter 3?

[Juanita] Not sure if I'm just not ready to plunge into it yet or if I'm having a terrible case of procratination

[Juanita] No. I've got a complete draft of Geoff's story done. this is a new one

[DaveK] I started a new story about time travel and have now written myself into a corner.

[Juanita] What kind of corner?

[DaveK] The protag has gone back in time for a simple job and now finds that he is not when he is supposed to be.

[DaveK] Unknow to him he has been sent back so the bad guy can change the past.

[DaveK] It was supposed to be a humor story but that went away.

[DaveK] So now I don't know when he is or how he long he will be there or what he is going to do.

[Juanita] I find humor is hard to write. My funnies are usually one liners in the middle of other stuff

[Elizabeth] hi there! Sorry I'm late.

[Juanita] Do you work from an outline?

[DaveK] HI Elizabeth.

[Juanita] Hi Elizabeth

[DaveK] I was just describing my quandry.

[Elizabeth] I used to hate outlines, but now I find myself doing them.

[Elizabeth] For short stories at least. If I can break them up into scenes, I can keep them from getting too ornate.

[DaveK] The stories I've done always depart from the outline and wander into the unknown.

[Juanita] I find that, for anything longer than 2000 words or so, they save loads and loads of time.

[Elizabeth] brb

[Juanita] We scared her off

[anneliese] back

[Juanita] I don't usually wander off my outline because if I don't know precisely where I'm headed I have trouble getting there.

[DaveK] I'll have to think about it over night. Sometimes that works. Other times I simply stay up all night.

[DaveK] BTW, Juanita, if you register on the login screen you can get an icon next to your name.

[Juanita] I wondered where they came from

[Juanita] I thought I filled out all the boxes when I logged in.

[anneliese] Oh, now the whole side panel is green (sorry)

[DaveK] It took me a while because I thought I was registered from the ld chat room. But we're not.

[Juanita] Green is georgeous

[DaveK] It has always ben an olive green for me.

[anneliese] I think I'm back. Had to take a phone call. Yep, I like it better than the blue... matches the site better, I think.

[anneliese] Olive green??? You mean tonight. Not last time.

[DaveK] So, Juanita, what is your new story about?

[anneliese] I was switching out the colors (and fixing the link colors) before you came.

[Juanita] Ummm, I'm not that observant. don't know what color's it's been

[DaveK] Olive, aqua, I'm a guy, see my icon. All I know are the primary colors.

[anneliese] Never mind... It's story talk time now

[Juanita] this one is about a ateenager working with his uncle and great grandfather to catch a small comet for the ice

[DaveK] Ooh, sounds like hard SF. I like it already.

[Juanita] It's intended to be 13,000 to 15,000 words long. I've done about 350

[anneliese] Sounds intriguing.

[Juanita] I like it too, I just haven't written it yet!

[Juanita] So, any thoughts on where I've taken Geoff this chapter?

[Elizabeth] okay, I'm back.

[anneliese] What struck me most, was the amount of description you put into this chapter.

[Elizabeth] I liked the final scenes the most--where Geoff is trying to dance with Chin.

[anneliese] Yes, those were done well.

[Juanita] Yeah, I've had a comment or two on that. I'me trying to set the stage so I don't have to describe a lot later

[Elizabeth] I thought you did a good job balancing the description, the action, and Geoff's reactions (which I loved).

[DaveK] I don't get that. The description seems to be of an erotic dance but you have two guys. Is it supposed to be that.

[Juanita] I can just have him move from place to place within the station

[Elizabeth] You may need to break up some of the other descriptions--for instance, I wasn't sure we needed so much detail about Geoff's apartment.

[Elizabeth] Unless there's a particular room, or item, which is going to figure in later in the plot.

[Elizabeth] Then you might want to briefly describe that room.

[Juanita] Erotic is only in the eyes of the beholder. to the performers, it's just the movements.

[DaveK] There is an old saying - If you put a shotgun in scene one you have to use it by scene three. It refered to plays but I think the application here is if it is important describe it, if not don't.

[Elizabeth] That was the fun part for me, Dave. You've got Geoff--who, like most teenage boys, is hyper-concerned about his masculinity--or at least how other people view his masculinity.

[Juanita] A lot happens in that apartment, including cookie dough fights

[Elizabeth] He's in a situation where that image could be in real danger.

[Elizabeth] I like the idea of low-grav cookie-dough fights.

[anneliese] I loved how you described the low grav wrestling.

[DaveK] Only if they're important. The holo seemed to describe a fairly erotic dance.

[anneliese] Jumping over the dining room table, etc.

[Elizabeth] <==agrees w/Anneliese

[anneliese] Really set the character and place for me.

[Juanita] It was fun to picture. Wish I could try it.

[Juanita] Yes, Not sure if you had a chance to read chap one

[Juanita] Where Geoff saw the three different classes of the dance

[DaveK] Of course my analytic self was wondering if .7 g was enough for that behavior.

[anneliese] Moon is .6, isn't it?

[DaveK] I thought the moon was less. Arn't they on a station - variable gravity.

[Juanita] at .7 you lose about 2/3 of your weight, right.

[Juanita] His home is on a light deck School and dance hall are one gravity

[DaveK] NO at .7 you have .7 of your weight.

[Juanita] I said that first line there wrong. make it lose 1/3

[anneliese] 2/3 = .667

[DaveK] He got off at some sign that said .7 was that his home?

[Juanita] close enough for this purpose

[Elizabeth] so lunar gravity would be closer to .16 g...I think you weigh one-sixth of your Earth weight on the Moon.

[Juanita] I think...

[Elizabeth] But it's been a long time since my last physics class.

[DaveK] 1/6 sounds familiar.

[anneliese] OK, then I had the '6' in the wrong place.

[DaveK] Therefore you are - Juanita.

[Juanita] I'll have to check that. maybe move them up a deck or two

[anneliese] I got the sense that this is one humongous space station... how many inhabitants?

[Juanita] Thousands

[DaveK] Good question. At what weight do you get to float a bit.

[Juanita] Tens of thousands

[anneliese] Seems like it should be tens of thousands, at least.

[Elizabeth] good question, Dave.

[Juanita] I don't think you really float until you're into the very light decks. On the other's you'd just have really good hang time.

[DaveK] And the closer they get to the axis the more coreolis forces will curve their jumps,

[DaveK] Anneliese, when are you getting that spell checked integrated into this chat room?

[Elizabeth] get far enough in and everybody is Michael Jordan.

[anneliese] LOL, Dave!

[Elizabeth] even I could play low-grav basketball.

[anneliese] Juanita, do you have other questions for us?

[Juanita] Not sure. Did I take care of my usual error of introducing too many characters at once?

[Juanita] I think I trickled them in this time.

[anneliese] I had no problems with the number of characters introduced.

[anneliese] Not sure about how you brought in the parents' names, though.

[anneliese] I bumped a bit there.

[DaveK] The introductions seemed OK to me.

[Juanita] I can't remember..did you meet the whole gang this chap? Or is that in the next one

[Elizabeth] I was okay with the number of characters. A lot of description, thought. Slowed the pace down quite a bit.

[anneliese] Sister and both parents.

[Elizabeth] I don't think we've met the whole gang yet. Family, Chin and Lui, Geoff's friend.

[Juanita] Hmmmm. If I move the description to later of delete it altogether, are people going to lack 'placement'?

[Elizabeth] I think a brief description of the apartment, at first. Dribble in a new set of details each time you revisit the place.

[Elizabeth] The description's good, you just need to distribute it more evenly. Avoid expository lumps.

[anneliese] Hard to say. I'm trying to think about the wrestling... if that scene is important, how much of it depends on *seeing* the apartment first.

[DaveK] I usually skip all that description when I read a story unless it is about some alien land or artifact.

[DaveK] Sometimes I do have to go back anf read it but not often.

[Elizabeth] Just describe the parts of the apartment they land on while they're wrestling.

[Elizabeth] Or the areas they're trying not to crash into as they tussle.

[anneliese] Yes, the living room area is important, but the kitchen layout is less so.

[Elizabeth] Not that teenage boys are careful about that sort of thing...

[Juanita] So you're saying I don't need to describe it until something happens there.

[anneliese] We need to know that it's a *shotgun* apartment, but we don't need to know where the lasagna is kept.

[Elizabeth] Right.

[DaveK] In my opinion only describe it if the description is necessary to the plot.

[Elizabeth] Just enough detail so we know, say, Geoff's family's status--is it smaller, older, further out than most?

[anneliese] That's an interesting point, Dave. As I was reading Juanita's description, I thought, oh, boy, I need to add a lot more description in my writing.

[Juanita] Pretty well all Geoff's interaction with his family happens there. It is where you see how Chin's

[DaveK] I think it is a matter of taste. I care about the ideas not so much about the humdrum details.

[Juanita] extortion affects Geoff's relationship with those he loves

[Juanita] It's kind of cool, having some people think I've too much description

[DaveK] A lot of writing books say to involve all your senses. That never seemed right to me. NOt for SF anyway.

[Juanita] I've been told more often that I haven't put enough in

[Juanita] I believe in it. if an alien stinks, we should know about it

[anneliese] I think it is partly a matter of balance, and a matter of style.

[DaveK] If later on the smell of the alien gives it away.

[anneliese] I've always been intrigued by how much detail a reader will insert, given just a few clues.

[Juanita] I'm also a pretty tactile person. I like to know how things feel to the touch -- tough I don't imagene teenage boys think about that

[Elizabeth] True. Perhaps what you should focus on is what's different, what an earthbound reader wouldn't expect.

[anneliese] Sometimes, the reader's imagination is better than the writer's.

[Elizabeth] Teenage boys seem to be mostly visual.

[DaveK] Only about how teenage girls feel.

[Juanita] LOL

[Elizabeth] At least from my experience. The senses of smell, hearing and taste are pretty muted (especially when mom's talking).

[anneliese] I thought it was interesting that Geoff noticed Chin's cologne.

[Juanita] I figured he couldn't help it. In close proximity, after a bit of exercise, it would be obvious

[DaveK] I'm thinking about how movie adaptions of books I've read interperted things differently.

[Elizabeth] I also expect that Chin would go a bit heavy on the cologne.

[Elizabeth] seems in keeping with his personality.

[anneliese] I guess I just don't associate cologne with dancers.

[Juanita] Movie makers never seem to get the books quite right.

[anneliese] Hi Terri!

[DaveK] The cologne was a nice touch. I wouldn't have thought of it.

[Juanita] Hi Terri

[DaveK] Hi Terri.

[DaveK] Are you a time zone off?

[DaveK] Or daylight savings time?

[Elizabeth] the cologne made sense to me. Chin's probably also into big gold jewelry and shiny suits.

[anneliese] Works for me

[bogwitch64] ack! I'm in!

[anneliese] Or should it be something other than gold, being a space station culture.

[anneliese] Yes, you made it!

[bogwitch64] Hi Juanita

[Juanita] I don't think I ever go there ... to jewelery, that is

[bogwitch64] I've been trying to get in since 10:20

[Juanita] Hi again, Terri. good to see you here.

[Elizabeth] sorry to hear that, Terri.

[bogwitch64] I finally noticed another chatroom link on the site and tried it. Whew, now I know

[bogwitch64] Ok, sorry to have interupted

[Juanita] I think we're almost done so throw in your two-bits worth!

[Elizabeth] There'll probably be some new form of bling-bling by then. Specially anodized, rainbow stuff. Holographic display bling.

[DaveK] NO, this is good to know. There is a bad link on the SFWW home page -right?

[anneliese] I'd like to see holographic tatoos.

[DaveK] Holo bling - good idea.

[bogwitch64] I clicked on chatroom rather than the link, Dave

[DaveK] Anneliese - there is a link to http://www.acmfox.com/sfwwchat on teh SFWW page

[bogwitch64] Juanita, is this a first draft or one of several?

[DaveK] The online chat page.

[anneliese] Oops. Another bad link to fix, huh.

[bogwitch64] that's the one I COULDN'T use. I used the chatroom off to the left

[Juanita] It's a second or third revision, depending what chapter you're reading

[bogwitch64] There is a whole lot of great information in there. Stuff YOU need but your reader won't. Gotta pick and choose what will interest vs. what will bog things down.

[bogwitch64] You really know how to worldbuild

[Juanita] My first chapters always seem to need the most work

[bogwitch64] Same here

[anneliese] (Fixed now, Dave)

[Juanita] I thinks I'm maybe talked out. Thanks for all the input

[Elizabeth] thanks, Anneliese.

[DaveK] Thanks for the story. Are there any more in the queue?

[Elizabeth] I hope it helps, Juanita. I'm intrigued by what you have so far...I definitely want to see more.

[bogwitch64] Sorry I was so late

[Elizabeth] Especially how Geoff develops as a dance partner.

[DaveK] Elizabeth.

[bogwitch64] oops, sorry, was there a cue/protocol set up???

[bogwitch64] oops queue

[anneliese] No protocol.

[Juanita] First he tries to get out of it, of course

[DaveK] I was refering to more stories to critique.

[bogwitch64] oh, whew

[Juanita] we just go ahead an talk, answering things sort-of in order

[anneliese] Yes, Dave there are more chapters in the queue.

[Juanita] I'll be sending chap three out next, in a couple of weeks, I think.

[anneliese] We only do protocol where there are a lot more folks, and they get rowdy

[bogwitch64] Are the crits usually due in the first Monday of the month?

[bogwitch64] Anneliese

[Elizabeth] Crits are usually due two weeks after the submission goes out to the group, Terri.

[anneliese] Crits are usually due each Monday, the story is circulated 2 weeks prior.

[bogwitch64] oh, gotcha

[bogwitch64] So next week is???

[anneliese] Open, I think. We don't have as many subs for the AOL chats.

[DaveK] NO story for next week.

[Elizabeth] let me see...Dave's right. No story for next week.

[DaveK] Do you want to peopose a topic?

[bogwitch64] gotcha, thanks

[Juanita] Got a kid needing help with homework. Got to go.

[Juanita] good night, all. thanks.

[DaveK] Today we beat up Juanita and that developed into a discussion about how much description is needed in a story.

[bogwitch64] I guess we're done here for the night?

[DaveK] Bye

[bogwitch64] Poor Juanita

[anneliese] Niters, Juanita.

[Juanita] I loved it

[Elizabeth] good night, Juanita. Keep sending us chapters!

[anneliese] I'll post the chat on the log, but to see it now, use the show command.

[Juanita] Bye

[Elizabeth] Now I probably need to sign off before my dog goes insane...

[Elizabeth] she's having a hard time adjusting to my being gone all day.

[bogwitch64] nice meeting you all! I'll be on time next week

[anneliese] Sorry I haven't sent you anything, Dave. Turned out to be an insane week for me.

[Elizabeth] good night, Terri, glad you could make it!

[DaveK] Bye. I guess it is time to go.

[anneliese] Glad you made it eventually... Sorry for the bad links

[anneliese] Guess we all have to move on.

[DaveK] Next week. BYe

[anneliese] Niters.

[camidon] Evening, Anneliese

[anneliese] Hi CM!

[anneliese] You snuck in on me

[Elizabeth] hi there!

[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!

[Elizabeth] how's it going?

[camidon] I see.

[camidon] I was trying to think of some witty response to sneaking up on you, but one never came!

[anneliese] I survived the CL chat tonight, so all is good

[anneliese] LOL! CM

[camidon] Evening, Elizabeth

[Elizabeth] eep, I still need to make one of those.

[Elizabeth] have you been able to access Kier's journal? I can't get into it no matter how many times I try.

[anneliese] Tonight's was not the same thing as last weeks' (I think).

[anneliese] Nope. Haven't even found it yet.

[camidon] CL chat? <Elizabeth, I think Anneliese may be two timing this group!>

[Elizabeth] AOL keeps telling me the journal area isn't available.

[Elizabeth] Community Leader, CM. Be glad you don't have to attend.

[Elizabeth] so what was the topic tonight?

[anneliese] I never made any of the ones last week, so I figured I'd better show up for this one.

[anneliese] It was a Q&A, plus a tiny introduction. It got ugly.

[Elizabeth] neither did I. Whoops. Bad moderator.

[anneliese] I thought Kier was going to walk out.

[Elizabeth] Ugly how?

[anneliese] Yes. Any you need to update your journal... bad web links. (I posted a comment)

[anneliese] Hi Mike!

[emptykube] hello

[camidon] wow, I definitely don't eny you at all.

[Elizabeth] oops. I do need to update that.

[camidon] Evening, Mike

[Elizabeth] hi Mike!

[emptykube] hi cm, hi elizabeth, anneliese.

[anneliese] The rules for AOL hosties be a changing.

[emptykube] cm...just sent you a critique.

[camidon] Just got it, perusing it, thanks!

[Elizabeth] Yeah, and not in a good way, from what you're telling me.

[Elizabeth] lots of disgruntled people at the chat?

[Elizabeth] sorry, CM, Mike, I'll knock off the CL gossip.

[anneliese] Quite a few. But I think that there are new tools such as journals that can replace some of what has been lost.

[anneliese] If the community can get itself organized.

[anneliese] [ending CL gossip now]

[emptykube] no...its okay...i was browsing backwards trying to read what you guys were talking about glad I don't have to worry about CL ..doesn't sound like fun.

[camidon] I don't mind this little CL discussion at all. In fact, I'm rather amused!

[camidon] More kudos to you two for putting of with AOL #*@&$

[Elizabeth] Every two years or so AOL feels the need to completely revamp its Community Leader procedures.

[Elizabeth] Why, I'm not sure, but there are probably cost-cutting reasons involved.

[anneliese] Yea, there was that quip about CLs having to live up to a higher standard...

[anneliese] Yeppers, it's all about money.

[emptykube] Money? AOL about money??

[anneliese] Anyway, CM, what do you have to say about your sub?

[emptykube] no....say it ain't so!

[Elizabeth] Like when they de-contracted most of their freelance content writers and decided to have "local experts" contribute for free.

[anneliese] (LOL Mike)

[emptykube] I miss Writer's Club!!!

[camidon] Mike, i agree with all your comments in your critique. Before we talk at all about my "pepperoni" submission, I should say: 'I HATE time travel stories. I'm still shaking my head as to why I wrote one. Farce is definately the right word

[Elizabeth] So do I, Mike. It was such a great resource, and they just decided to chuck the whole thing.

[emptykube] LOL!!! Think of time travel as fantasy...

[anneliese] Everyone misses Writers Club. Tonight's painful experience got me to thinking about how it might be resurected.

[camidon] Hey, the bold feature worked! <patting myself on the back>

[Elizabeth] CM, your sub definitely said "farce" to me. It had almost a Terry Gilliam feel to me...an ever-increasing portion of society dedicated to making sure that nothing, absolutely nothing, changes.

[camidon] Yes, I agree; Time Tavel = Fantasy

[emptykube] elzabeth it was Writer's Club that made me stick with AOL to begin with. Over the years its just seems to have become all about mass media and hype.

[Elizabeth] And in the meantime, there's no fracking progress to be made in the present or future...everybody's busy sanitizing the past.

[Elizabeth] Word, Mike.

[camidon] But then I still fall into the trap of trying to explain the "science" of this "farcical" time travel story.

[emptykube] I have twenty three more days until my AOL connection is severed completely. Would have been sooner, but when they offered that free month, how could I say no?

[Elizabeth] I think Douglas Adams might be a guide for the science in this one.

[Elizabeth] He has a "scientific" explanation for the Improbability Drive, but it's just as goofy and farcical as the rest of his stuff.

[camidon] I knew I had done that, before I sent this to the group, but couldn't brging myself NOT to explain it. <weeping, weeping, weeping,)

[emptykube] CM...Elizabeth might be right. make the whole thing of time tarvel and adjusting really complex.and bizarre.

[camidon] Free = Good. Yet AOL = BAD. Damn these paradoxes!

[Elizabeth] don't be too hard on yourself, CM. Maybe the pepperoni (especially the stale pepperoni, the kind you shouldn't let pseudo-vegetarian clients eat) be part of the time-stream maintenance package.

[Elizabeth] Whoops, so much for grammer.

[emptykube] LOL CM

[Elizabeth] have the pepperoni be part of the time-stream maintenance mechanism.

[Elizabeth] Or coffee.

[camidon] Ok... Hmmm... Make it complex and bizarre. I like that idea. Any ideas exactly how to do thta?

[Elizabeth] Schrodinger's Pepperoni?

[camidon] Time-stream maintenance package. What a gread term!

[emptykube] If every choice changes time, I'd say your on a good track to being complex

[camidon] I definately could see Malachite using the term "Shrodinger's Pepperoni." That would definately be his type of explanation.

[Elizabeth] Perhaps the time-stream maintenance package has several options, varying time-frames and integrity percentages, depending on what you're willing to pay for.

[Elizabeth] (Sorry, we just got back from hubby's auto dealer today. The repairs on his car are <B>almost<B>/ complete.

[emptykube] Perhaps the answer is that each moment has an object taht has to be put in the right place, or not used, or not eaten , or eaten, or wahtever, and the "adjuster" has the job of figuring out what it is, and how to keep time flowing the right way??

[anneliese] Shrodingers Lipstick... something else for pepperoni?

[Elizabeth] Like a really, really annoying computer game where you have to get a whole bunch of different items, and do favors for a bunch of characters, before you can get to the next level?

[anneliese] The cat ate the pepperoni?

[emptykube] Shrodinger's Pepperoni is a great title!

[Elizabeth] Schrodinger's Cathouse Red Lipstick.

[emptykube] yes,. elizabeth...like such a game!

[emptykube] The cat who came in for the Pepperoni.

[Elizabeth] the cat ate the pepperoni, and now it's sick. All over the quantum box.

[camidon] lol

[camidon] You all are a riot of gonzo ideas. Perfect for this pepperoni farce

[anneliese] And that would be Malachite's explanation

[camidon] Perhaps malachite can explain time travel in terms of Shrodinger's cat eating pepperoni before the cat is put into the box. Will it barf or won't it? And if it does, will it just eat the barf right back up.

[Elizabeth] And perhaps part of the story is that Malachite's explanations don't explain a darned thing.

[emptykube] I also kept think how unemployment in your future has been solved since everyone seems to be employed by stabalizing the past.

[camidon] My apologies for the gross barf comments!

[Elizabeth] :::laughing very hard at the Schrodinger's cat/pepperoni/barf/catbox comments:::

[Elizabeth] CM, I have a six-year-old boy, very little grosses me out any more.

[emptykube] I like the idea of the explaining not really explaining anything.

[camidon] Yes, that would be a good way of going about it, Mal's explanation not reallt saying anything, but being darn silly

[emptykube] Elizabeth...son is 6???!! My God! I remember when you used to come to chat and talk about diapers! has it been that long???

[Elizabeth] yeah, Mike, it has.

[emptykube] CM...like Ford Prefect.

[camidon] True, no unemployment, yet one by one, other jobs are disappearing. Soon EVERYone will be working for the TPA. No more teachers, no more artists, musicians, janitors. But then, that would also mean there would be no more politicians... oh wait, I apply a TPA a government.

[Elizabeth] brb

[camidon] Damn, even the future politician's get out of being "drafted" for the TPA...

[emptykube] Elizabeth....my oldest turned 9 in decemeber...youngest is now two....middle ones are 8 and 5....time sure does need stabalizing!!

[camidon] Yes, Mike, it's been that long since we joined! ACK!

[anneliese] (trying to find something rational) I figured that the moment of insight was going to be that since everyone is in the TPA and they are all time traveling, the past is really populated mainly by time travelers.

[anneliese] Hence, no future.

[camidon] Mike, it'd be so much less fun if time were really stablized wouldn't it

[emptykube] LOL!! Anneliese...that's great!!! And the only way to keep it that way is to keep sending people on mundane missions!!!

[camidon] Rational? Why bother...

[emptykube] CM...I'd jsut like to be able to stop a coupl of minutes here and there from happening, that's all...

[anneliese] lol

[camidon] Yes, that was kind of my intention, sort of, I think, maybe

[Elizabeth] bak

[Elizabeth] The entire population is drafted into maintaining the past.

[camidon] I definately did want to imply the future was spiraling into oblivion by being so obsessed with the past. That's a good leap of deduction though Anneliese. One I hadn't thought of.

[Elizabeth] kind of like the aorist rods in Douglas Adams.

[camidon] Yeah, Mike, or pause a little longer in some of the really good moments.

[Elizabeth] CM, have you read Young Zaphod Plays It Safe?

[Elizabeth] It was an addition to one of the versions of the Hitchhiker's Guide.

[Elizabeth] There's a spaceship in which all sorts of extremely dangerous materials are stowed for safekeeping, including aorist rods--

[camidon] Why, yes I have, Elizabeth, read them all, including that short one

[emptykube] brb

[Elizabeth] your TPA reminds me of the aorist rods, and how the present generation finally figures out that future generations are robbing them of their power, and get rid of the aorist rods.

[camidon] <pulling from shelf> It's in "The More Than Complete Hitchhiker's Guide"

[Elizabeth] Except that, of course, the ship carrying them to an undisclosed safe hiding place crashes.

[anneliese] Darn. I don't have that version.

[camidon] It's a big green volume, 1994

[camidon] was this collection published.

[Elizabeth] see if you can track it down at the library, Anneliese. The short story is hilarious.

[anneliese] I'm going to. I remember seeing it in the bookstores when it first came out, but not since.

[camidon] "Holy dingo's do," snarled Zaphod, "thre are aorist rods on board...!"

[anneliese] <== always was a Douglas Adams fan

[camidon] sorry, got lost in the book.

[anneliese] lol

[emptykube] back

[emptykube] how much text can be copied and pasted here?

[Elizabeth] hubby's rereading Hitchhiker's Guide. We're amusing ourselves (and annoying the six-year-old) by trading Hitchhiker trivia.

[anneliese] I have no idea.

[Elizabeth] good question, Mike.

[anneliese] Are you going to make me try to look it up?

[emptykube] I have a brief conversation between Mal and Daniel just wrote, to kind of flesh out the ideas we bounced. Gonna try to paste it here, okay?

[camidon] So, besides making the time travel explanation more bizarre and wacky, ala Adams, other thoughts about this "farce"?

[anneliese] At least 256 characters, but it might be more, would be my guess.

[anneliese] Go for it!

[emptykube] Mal talking to daniel:

[camidon] If you find my longest post of the night, I hit the "max" charactes on that and couldn't type anymore

[camidon] Does anyone actually have any idea what happened at the end of my story? I sure don't. . .

[anneliese] Use the show command to see more lines and set up a vertical scroll bar.

[anneliese] I don't CM.

[emptykube] See, rookie...its like this.

[emptykube] There ain't no future. Not really. They don't teach this in the books, but someone figured out long ago that there ain't enough resources to go around. No one gonna get enough, see?

[Elizabeth] I enjoyed it, CM. Good use of farcical situations to make a serious point: by obsessing over the past, TPA is depriving people of a future.

[emptykube] So what's the answer? Keep everyone busy so they can't think about what they don't have. Now how do you do that? No one knew until this guy invented time travel by accident.

[emptykube] Slipped back into the past, changed his future, popped out of existence. But his machines, see, they stick around. No one knew why.

[emptykube] One day this Dept of Labor dude finds them. The rest is history."

[camidon] well, good, at least I'm not alone, and I wrote the darn thing.

[emptykube] Daniel looks confused. "I don't get it. What are you talking about?"

[emptykube] al sighs..."Christ! Do I have to spell it out?

[camidon] Keep, going, Mike, please!

[emptykube] Every choice in the past changes the future, so if you send everyone back in time to watch the past, there ain't a future to worry about!

[anneliese] lol

[emptykube] Therefore, we got to make sure this lady don't swallow the pepperoni!

[emptykube] daniel shakes his head. "I'm sorry. I still don't understand."

[emptykube] "Just sip your coffee, rookie. Leave the thinking to me."

[camidon] lol

[emptykube] okay...done...what do you think CM?? or did I over step my boundries??

[camidon] can I hire you as co-author, Mike?

[emptykube] LOL!! no just borrow my ideas

[camidon] I pay sixteen cents, a packet of mustard, and a button that pop of my khakis six months ago

[emptykube] skip eevrything else...send the packet of mustard.

[camidon] "popped" should be "popped"! Way to grammatically ruin a joke!

[anneliese] LOL!

[camidon] I'll keep that in mind, Mike.

[Elizabeth] lol!

[emptykube] "of" should be "off" too, but who's paying attention

[camidon] Seriously, though, I love it. You're definately onto the right way to go about the time travel explanation

[emptykube] the idea is anneliese's, hire her...

[camidon] I think I have to use some of what you've created, as there is no better place to be creating text for this story, than in one of these zany chats.

[anneliese] Idea? I had an idea???? :looks quizically:

[camidon] So, Anneliese Will you for a packet of mustard?

[emptykube] LOL!!!

[anneliese] For a packet of mustard! You know I will!

[Elizabeth] Dijon, deli, or plain yellow?

[emptykube] gotta love the mustard pakets!!

[camidon] Let's see, any last thoughts or questions...

[Elizabeth] I'll do a lot for good mustard...

[emptykube] plain yellow mustard packs that never seem to expire...

[anneliese] You mean mustard comes in flavors?

[camidon] Woah, Elibeth! Please, stopping cutting the mustard! Ok, was the whole pepperoni vegetarian thing funny? Or did it go on too long? Thoughts?

[Elizabeth] I thought the pepperoni vegetarian thing was funny.

[emptykube] me too.

[camidon] Elibeth? damn typos.

[anneliese] I thought the *catastrophe* at the end could have been more catastrophic.

[camidon] Elaborate, Anneliese? What "catastrophe"?

[anneliese] Of course, the notion that the real problem was not paying the check, was kind of interesting.

[anneliese] Well, I wanted the ladies to have a pepperoni pizza, and there was nothing to do about it.

[anneliese] But I'm not sure that works for the story.

[anneliese] I still have to think more about it, I guess.

[anneliese] Ignore the above.

[camidon] What about the whole "going back to the origins of time" thing. Did it seem random? Out of place? Funny? Poorly set-up?

[emptykube] Hey...I hate to chat and run...but I have to cut out...sorry.

[Elizabeth] okay, Mike. Glad you could make it tonight.

[camidon] Pleae, think all you want. The more pepperoni for thought, the better.

[anneliese] It came on hard, and I think it could be made really silly...what if upon return, the role of pepperoni is reversed?

[anneliese] Glad you could make it Mike!

[emptykube] CM..good luck with this....elizabeth..anneleise next week on AOL??

[camidon] np, Mike, thanks for coming, chatting, and laughing

[anneliese] AOL... I'll be there!

[Elizabeth] what if he has to pay his bill in pepperoni...and realizes that, somehow, he's managed to completely futz the timeline?

[emptykube] See you all soonest.

[Elizabeth] AOL...if the Writers Corner is still there.

[camidon] have a good week and evening, Mike.

[camidon] Thta is funny, pepperoni as payment.

[anneliese] It seemed a little out of line in that everything before hand was mundane, then, suddenly, this joker is qualified to handle a dire emergency?

[Elizabeth] good night, Mike!

[anneliese] Niters Mike

[camidon] I did try to imply the passage of "time" and in so doing, Daniel became more into the "mainstream"--he began drinking coffee.

[anneliese] Yes. You did a good job of implying the passage of time... but he was still watching for pepperoni all that time.

[camidon] <shuddering> yes, he was.

[anneliese] I think just a tiny forshadowing to imply that other *special* events occurred...perhaps Malachite mentioning one in passing...

[anneliese] ...oh but it was nothing... only a one-timer... nothing like watching lipstick for 13 years.

[camidon] I actually have to get running to. But last brain-taxing, mustard related (or not) thoughts?

[camidon] I agree, that would be a good thing for Malachite to mention briefly.

[anneliese] My brain is mustard tonight. Really bland, stale, non-spicy mustard.

[Elizabeth] not at all, Anneliese.

[anneliese] Nothing more in my brain, tonight.

[camidon] Definately remember to post this chat, Anneliese, as I'll certainly be sniffing around Mike's text.

[Elizabeth] I'm a bit mustardy myself.

[Elizabeth] I'll copy it to my files as well.

[anneliese] Will do.

[camidon] Thanks for your wonderful fun and comments again.

[anneliese] I like the way the chats save in this software.

[anneliese] Thank you for putting up with us!

[Elizabeth] It's a fun story, CM. I enjoyed reading it, and I think you can have even more fun with it.

[camidon] I've had my quota of laughter (and mustard) for the week

[Elizabeth] pass the mustard!

[Elizabeth] I'll have to incorporate mustard into a future story.

[camidon] I definately think from the feedback, the more farcical, the better. The serious points still come across.

[anneliese] Quotas? We don't need no stinkin quotas!

[camidon] Gnight, Anneliese, Elizaneth.

[anneliese] Nighters, CM. Glad you could make it.

[Elizabeth] Good night all!

[Elizabeth] I'm off to AOL to fix the links.

[Juanita] Hi Anneliese

[anneliese] Hi Juanita!

[Juanita] Glad to be here. My computer tried to tell me this place doesn't exist

[anneliese] Gosh, I just hate it when that happens.

[anneliese] Hi CM!

[Juanita] Hi cm

[camidon] Howdy everyone

[camidon] What's new an exciting this evening?

[Juanita] this must be almost all of us. I don't think there's been very many showing up lately

[anneliese] We had pretty good turnout last week, didn't we?

[anneliese] (or am I confused again)

[camidon] Yes, we did

[Juanita] Sorry, I don't get to the AOL ones.

[Elizabeth] hi everybody!

[anneliese] I managed to get two critiques done tonight (yours is still in the works, Juanita)

[Elizabeth] We did have a good turnout last week. :-)

[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!

[Juanita] I'm not an AOL er

[camidon] oh wait, no last week. my bad

[anneliese] Last week was here.

[Elizabeth] I understand. I wish AOL allowed non-members into their chats, frankly.

[Juanita] It must be a riot. I can recall days when we needed to follow protocol

[camidon] Wait, I'm all turned around. Was I last week? I think so..

[anneliese] So do I (Nice color, Elizabeth)

[Juanita] You're right. last week was CMs chat there were the four of us

[anneliese] yup

[Elizabeth] Thanks!

[Juanita] Not that it matters....

[anneliese] Well, you have quality, if not quantity

[Juanita] What we lack in quantity we make up for in quality

[camidon] whoops. Just ignore for a few more minutes while I wake up, or rather, fall asleep, whichever happens first

[Elizabeth] lol CM!

[Juanita] great minds, eh?

[anneliese] LOL

[Elizabeth] U> Here, have some coffee, CM. I brewed it extra-strong.

[Elizabeth] "Samurai coffee" as my mother-in-law puts it.

[anneliese] We're the best...and we know it!

[Juanita] So if you want to sleep tonight, drink only half

[anneliese] Ooo, I need some of that coffee too.

[camidon] thanks I'm good now!

[Elizabeth] My coffee knocks the in-laws for a loop. ;-)

[Elizabeth] U> U> drink up!

[Juanita] Great! shall we start?

[camidon] woah, that smiley looks <cough, cough> constipated

[Juanita] The coffee will fix it

[anneliese] Whenever you're ready!

[camidon] sure

[Elizabeth] lol!

[Juanita] Okay

[Elizabeth] Juanita, do you have anything you'd like to say before we start?

[Juanita] This is a novel I finished right after Christmas. You guys are the first to read it because my sister, who usually reads my stuff as I write it, has been to busy

[Juanita] I don't have a title yet, but am working on that. Unlike most of my action-adverture type stuff, this is more .... I don't know what to call it

[Juanita] It's a prequel to my c-Surfer story and ends just over five years before that one begins. It took me over a year to get brave enough to tackle it.

[Elizabeth] you're a better woman than I am, Juanita. I haven't tackled anything lately.

[camidon] first, congrats on finishing another novel! Well done. And right after Christmas? What better present that a finished draft of a novel.

[Juanita] I'm going to send a few more chaps to find out if it's too corny

[anneliese] I don't know how you do it!

[anneliese] Please send out more chapters!

[Juanita] I have two more I want to start....to bad I can't quit my day job

[Elizabeth] It's certainly got a more humorous subtext than your other work.

[Elizabeth] I laughed out loud when I found out that the "assignment" was to partner one of the Organization guys

[Elizabeth] in a dance contest.

[Elizabeth] Was that your intent?

[camidon] Yes, I simply love that idea. Very funny, and very in the characters.

[Juanita] Not consciously. It had to be something very different from Geoff's expectation to have to steal something

[camidon] Funny, yet ominous at the same time. What a great form of blackmail

[Elizabeth] While still being something Geoff doesn't even want to consider doing.

[camidon] Dance with me or else...

[Juanita] also, since I had already written about Geoff (as Cory) in another book, I had a couple of pages of details I had to make fit in this story.

[Juanita] I make use oof that later, when he gets desperate enough to talk to a cop

[Juanita] He wonders how to say something like "help...I'm dancing against my will"

[Elizabeth] lol!

[Elizabeth] I'm being forced to tango!

[anneliese] LOL

[Juanita] Actually, the cop doesn't batt an eyelash. He asks, stripping, exotic or lap

[camidon] oh, very good!

[Juanita] You have answered one of my biggest questions...is the whole concept workable

[Elizabeth] roflmao!

[Elizabeth] "If it's only samba, I can't arrest him."

[Juanita] ???

[Elizabeth] roflmao: rolling on the floor laughing my a** off

[anneliese] I think it is, but you do have to work the whole context of dancing into the world building.

[Juanita] AHHH LOL

[anneliese] Else it could become too silly.

[Elizabeth] And the idea that Geoff's reputation is *shot* if this becomes public.

[Elizabeth] Maybe the Organization is fixing dance contests for some reason?

[anneliese] For an action/adventure, that is, unless you're going for absurdity and/or humor.

[camidon] I agree with Anneliese

[Juanita] You'll have to tell me if I manage that. I based on the idea of all the ballroom, latino, etc competitions that are held nowadays

[camidon] It's a fine line to walk, humor vs silliness

[anneliese] I liked that touch... could be interesting if there is a low-grav element to it also.

[Juanita] Neither action/adventure or absurdity

[camidon] My main conern was getting into that scene with Chin and Lui (love the names). The dancing blackmail good. The setup to get us there fell flat for me.

[Juanita] It's supposed to be a kid in trouble with some funny parts.

[anneliese] <== agrees with CM.

[Juanita] Yeah, I think I'll have to re-rewrite that first part. Maybe I'll start with them going into Chin's apartment

[camidon] The low-grav element, very cool possibility

[Elizabeth] It might be better to have Chin and Lui haul him in somehow, or have him abducted from a more "manly" pursuit, rather than going with Trevor.

[anneliese] Of course, there could be a dark side to dance competitions, where the organization profits, also.

[Elizabeth] Maybe he and Trevor are doing cool-delinquent-guy stuff when Geoff gets hauled in.

[anneliese] Yep... like robbing the wrong convenience store.

[anneliese] You don't rob the paying (extortion) customers.

[Elizabeth] Oooh, good idea.

[Juanita] That's right

[Elizabeth] Or they're trying to put the moves on a girl who's one of Chin's or Lui's personal playthings.

[camidon] Did anyone else have a problem realizing they were on a space station. That majorly threw me for a loop when I figured it out some 20 paragraphs in. I had to rethink my whole visualization.

[Elizabeth] I would have liked to know the setting a little earlier, as well.

[Juanita] Yeah, I better fix that....

[camidon] Good ideas! As long as I'm solidly put on a space station.

[anneliese] (guess I just assumed it)

[Juanita] great minds??

[Elizabeth] Maybe they're snooping around the low-g end of town, or something like that.

[anneliese] lol!

[camidon] I love the space station setting, btw. Therefore I want to feel it a little more in the daily life...

[camidon] at the same time, I like how the kids don't think twice about their setting, they just exist in it.

[Juanita] Hopefully, I got that more in the next chap

[camidon] Oh, that's good, the "low-g" end of town!

[Elizabeth] Good. I like your space station settings...you do a really good job of thinking them through

[Elizabeth] and showing, often very subtly, how they're different from earth.

[Elizabeth] Like the short story you did about the girl coming home to find her drugged-out mom

[anneliese] But it's not an "end", since it's the center. So, downtown??

[Elizabeth] has torn up the garden, and worrying about the extra charge they'll get for oxygen.

[Juanita] Actually, I think of the low g decks as the opposite of down town they're out on the docks

[Elizabeth] The "low-g" neighborhood.

[anneliese] Yup. Of course the docking would be toward the low-g "end"

[Elizabeth] Also more isolated and an excellent place for wayward teens to do, well, wayward things.

[anneliese] Just think of the strip-joints and such around low-g? And what kind of drinks are served?

[Juanita] Good point. I don't take them there except t go to a shop by the low- g markets. maybe I should give them and adventure there

[camidon] yes, the pefect place for <cough, cough> "wayward" activities. Great setting potential there.

[Juanita] I do have them go to the 'adult entertainment' area to do a drug delivery

[anneliese] The entertainment could be really unusual.

[Elizabeth] Have them break into the wrong store, or screw up the delivery...something to give Chin and Lui more leverage.

[Elizabeth] A low-g strip joint would be easier to do, in some ways...in low-g, clothes wouldn't stay in place without assistance.

[Elizabeth] A teenaged boy might try to get the hot chick from class into that part of town just to see what that slick little dress does in low-g...

[anneliese] I'm thinking of the barber poll stunts, etc.

[camidon] That would be an "up-lifting" experience...

[Juanita] LOL

[camidon]

[Juanita] Hi MT

[emptykube] hello. sorry I'm late

[anneliese] Hi Mike!

[Elizabeth] hi Mike! Glad you could make it!

[anneliese] Just in time to join us in the low-g gutter!

[Elizabeth] Oooh, you could even do Michael-Jordan-like moves in low-g...could make for some really exotic dancing.

[camidon] Evening, Mike! Good timing. You caught us in the middle of discussing low-g strip joints! Join right in!

[emptykube] got caught up play monoply with my 9 year old and lost track of time

[Elizabeth] Mike, we're discussing Juanita's story...

[Elizabeth] in particular, how low-g would affect adult entertainment joints, drug deliveries, etc.

[camidon] Monopoly, much more important!

[anneliese] I wonder if there could be a drug delivery system that would benefit from low-g.

[Juanita] 9 year old -- much more important

[emptykube] low g strio joints....you know there IS a reason why NASA spent a million dollars inventing a new bra for female astronauts!

[Juanita] Hold things down as much as up!

[Elizabeth] lol!

[Elizabeth] Oooh. Or maybe certain drugs are easier to manufacture, or have greater effect, in low-g.

[Elizabeth] We already know that certain compounds are easier to synthesize--and come out purer--on the space shuttle.

[Elizabeth] The same would probably hold for pharmaceuticals.

[anneliese] I wasn't thinking so much of the manufacture (which is probably a given) so much as the entertainment value.

[emptykube] let's see...heart has to work less to circulate blood. how would that effect stimulants?

[emptykube] higher dosages?

[anneliese] Might last longer in the system?

[Elizabeth] Low-g manufactured drugs might have a certain cachet...kind of like, say, a certain weed has more cachet if it comes from Maui or Humboldt.

[Elizabeth] Would probably take less time to become effective.

[Elizabeth] But some of those pharmas also speed up heartbeat..that could be a real double whammy.

[emptykube] definately cheaper to make the drugs in space rather then ship up, but would Earth based dealers want cheaper drugs floating around?

[Elizabeth] There'd probably be some real conflict between space-based and Earth-based narcotics rings.

[emptykube] also, at the risk of being too graphic, low -g allows for sexual positions impossible on Earth and might make low-g hookers popular with tourists

[Elizabeth] good point, Mike. And a darned good thing we're not having this conversation on AOL.

[emptykube]

[camidon] Ha!

[anneliese] In that vein, would tourists prefer low-g zones, while locals prefer higher-g to prove their prowess?

[Juanita] LOL

[emptykube] leave it to a guy to think of that sort of thing

[camidon] And all of this a shady undercurrent of Juanita's novel. How possitively mysterious, alomst noir.

[anneliese] (does this mean that I shouldn't post this week's chat log?)

[emptykube] I think low-g locals would stick with own...the range really is greater. Might allow for more pleasure. Gravity hinders so many good uhem...moments.

[Juanita] There's no telling what lurks in the back-water of the solar system -- or station

[emptykube] the older the society the greater potential for darkness.

[Elizabeth] There's a nice dark undercurrent you can show underneath the humorous aspect of Geoff's predicament.

[camidon] I'd vote to post

[Juanita] However, with a younger audience in mind, my boys don't get that far--at least on the book pages

[emptykube] what about disease? Would Earth touists have to be screened before they could partake of the local flavors?

[camidon] What a great anti-Star Trek theme, Mike, if there ever was one. "the older the society..." Interesting.

[emptykube] tourists.

[anneliese] I think you can give enough hints to let older audiences let their imagination run, while keeping to the YA context.

[emptykube] sorry CM...been pondering the underbelly of Humanity lately

[Elizabeth] I agree with Anneliese.

[Juanita] me too

[Elizabeth] After all, these boys are growing up fast. They're this close to becoming the underbelly.

[Elizabeth] Not a whole lot of innocence here.

[camidon] <==== agrees with Anneliese

[Juanita] Though Chin does send a girl to join Geoff in the shower

[Juanita] Geoff thinks she's a bribe. he learns better

[emptykube] they're teens...teens often think about sex...you just don't have to be super explicit.

[anneliese] There

[Juanita] Sometimes I think that's ALL teens think about

[Elizabeth] they're teenage boys.

[camidon] <====agrees with Mike

[Elizabeth] Of course that's what they think about.

[anneliese] There's the girl with Trevor at Chin's. Not too YA there, is it? (or am I way behind?)

[emptykube] well teenage boys at least...come to think of it...grown up "boys" too

[Elizabeth] Not to mention the veiled threat against Geoff's sister, and the fact that she's cute.

[anneliese] At age 13.

[Juanita] I don't know if I'd call this YA, but it wll attract some ;younger readers

[Juanita] Someday

[Elizabeth] OTOH, there are a lot of teens out there who'd know exactly what you're talking about, and may have had similar experiences.

[Elizabeth] Bit scary how much they know.

[Juanita] OTOH ???

[Elizabeth] OTOH: on the other hand

[emptykube] hmmm...just listen at any Mall on a Friday night!

[Elizabeth] I suspect younger readers would skim right on by the innuendoes. I did at that age.

[anneliese] For me, the deciding line between a YA treatment and adult would be the level of or lack of discomfort with respect to the protags.

[Juanita] yeah, or a school hallway

[emptykube] I don't even want to think about what my girls here in school hallways (shiver)

[Juanita] Anneliese, not sure what youo mean by level of discomfort

[anneliese] I think there is a big difference between talk and experience.

[Juanita] AHH

[anneliese] You can talk about things graphically, but experiencing them in reality is very different.

[anneliese] If your protags are talking, but not really experiencing, it's a younger slant, imo.

[emptykube] good distinction.

[anneliese] If that makes sense.

[camidon] One of my close friends is a elemtary music teachers. The things these little ones are saying is downright dirty. I don't think you've got anything to worry about with what you've written so far, Juanita. You strike a good balance.

[Juanita] yes

[Juanita] thanks, CM

[Elizabeth] I remember my youngest sister saying, at the ripe age of seven, phrases that would have earned me an Ivory mouthwash.

[camidon] <==== Agrees with Anneliese. Good disctinction.

[Juanita] Isn't it always that way? The younger ones get away with everythoing

[anneliese] Stepping back, however, it's also a function of how language and slang evolve.

[emptykube] as a youngest sibling I plead the fifth.

[camidon] One day a group of teachers overhead some of the boys talking about which of the elemetary school teachers they wanted to "experience" <shiver> No doubt, kids are older, younger

[anneliese] Youth, as rebellion, have to shock their elders. Then, to their juniors, it is common lingo, an no longer shocking.

[camidon] Me too, Mike.

[Elizabeth] Yeah, I think the shock factor is a major draw. If mom and dad don't (or wouldn't) freak out, it's not cool enough.

[emptykube] oh yeah...elizabeth if it ain't taboo, it ain't worth doing!

[emptykube] whatever sends the grown ups on freak alert.

[Elizabeth] Plus these two don't seem to have much parental supervision...they're depending on the Organization to tell them how a man behaves.

[camidon] Your story has certainly sparked some interesting discussion, Juanita. That's a good thing.

[Elizabeth] So their behavior will be more exaggerated, more warped, than that of a kid whose parents are paying attention.

[Juanita] Yes. And informative

[Juanita] Gets the idea maker churning

[camidon] I'd agree with that, Elizabeth

[Juanita] I also make use of the way kids can do things and show thier families only one side of what they're up to

[Juanita] Even good parents can end up with a kid in trouble

[Elizabeth] Ah. Maybe the parents are just relieved that the kids are "working" and not in their hair.

[Elizabeth] If you're already busy, it's tempting not to look too closely at what your teenager's doing.

[Elizabeth] Not looking forward to that age at all.

[emptykube] the question of young adult versus grown up adults revolves around how dark the story is. How violent, how sexually explicict. You can dance around those issues without delving into them in young adult, but should delve into them for grown up adult.

[Juanita] Since I don't care to read explicit sex, I don't write it.

[anneliese] Good reason.

[Juanita] Everyone has an imagination

[Juanita] I put out the sign posts

[emptykube] skimmimg through story as we chat, I see many places where a small push in either direction could lob this story one way or the other. The scene where Chin is bribing Geoff to dance has homosexual undertones, for example, but you skim over them nicely.

[camidon] I have to head out here. Anneliese, thanks again for the wonderful critique, seriously. Mike, i've got a critique on the burner and it should be cooked in a day or two. Keep rubbing that "underbelly" Your submission was very, very, good. Full details soon.

[anneliese] But even if you aren't sexually explicit, you still have to be explicit in your treatment of the situation.

[Elizabeth] good night, CM!

[emptykube] thanks CM

[Juanita] Good night thanks for coming

[Juanita] I guess we all should be rolling. It's after the hour.

[anneliese] Glad you could make it.

[camidon] gnight all

[Juanita] Thanks for all your inputs

[anneliese] Any final words, Juanita?

[Elizabeth] The YA treatments of sex that work best, in my opinion, are the ones that don't gloss over the experience entirely...

[Elizabeth] but mention that weird mix of lust, frustration, and complete confusion that is teenage hormonal overdrive.

[Elizabeth] Just my opinion.

[anneliese] Or do they take drugs to suppress that hormonal overdrive?

[emptykube] agree elizabeth....not to drag JKR into this, but its hard to discuss YA and not. She does a nice job of the mix you mention in the HP books.

[Juanita] Yeah. I mean you can deal with a lot of aspects of it without detailed descriptions of physical activity

[anneliese] Could help control a lot of things.

[Elizabeth] It's a space station, they could put something in the water.

[Elizabeth] Exactly, Juanita.

[Juanita] Adults drink it too. You might end up with no little people

[anneliese] I would if it was my space station

[Juanita]

[Elizabeth] Or just dope the sodas in the high-school vending machines.

[anneliese] Adults planning families would get antidotes.

[emptykube] hmm...anneliese that's interesting. Teens in a technological society, where learning fast and excelling could spell the difference between a really good job and scrapping by might need to resort to drugs or even "chips" to suppress hormones.

[Elizabeth] (Bad parent! Bad parent!)

[emptykube] There might not be time for traditional "teen" angst.

[anneliese] Could definately be something there.

[Juanita] Hmmmm, but what about the fun married or other wise paried up adults have

[anneliese] You don't have to eliminate hormones...only raging hormones.

[Elizabeth] I'm thinking hormone-suppressant French fries in the high school cafeteria.

[Juanita] Ahhh

[emptykube] a space station society would probably have strong birth control protocols anyway, wouldn't you think? every new life adds a new strain on resources.

[Elizabeth] By then they'll probably have genetically modified potatoes for all sorts of medicines.

[Juanita] there's extra taxes if you have more than two kids

[anneliese] (It's the ketchup)

[emptykube] NO GM foods on Earth, though! They're already talking about banning them!

[anneliese] Bans aren't going to work.

[Elizabeth] They'll just move the research facilities (and hydroponic growing facilities) into unregulated territory.

[Elizabeth] LIke space. Then sell the GM stuff for twice as much, since it's so hard to get on Earth.

[emptykube] Extra taxes, yes, but what about living quarters? Every detail had to be planned from the begining. Would a family that decides to pay the extra taxes be able to find adequate space to live?

[anneliese] What? You can't pile 17 children in one 4 x6 bedroom?

[Juanita] Yes. Then as now, if you have money you can get what you wnat

[Elizabeth] That would probably be one of those cases where the station refuses to help "exceptional" families.

[Elizabeth] If they can afford the taxes, extra housing, etc. they can do it.

[emptykube] grow the vegiies in space where they get to be super large, and import them to Earth as gourmet at 100 times the cost.

[Elizabeth] The profit motive is extremely powerful...

[Juanita] Like the giant french fry in whatever that commercial was

[Juanita] MT, before we all leave, did you have a problem with the first part of this chap of mine?

[Elizabeth] The giant hormone-suppressing french fry!

[Elizabeth] I enjoyed the first chapter, Juanita.

[Juanita] I'm thnking I might have to change it to start when Geoff and Trevor arrive at chin's place

[emptykube] do you mean since it doesn't state off the bat they are on a sppace station?

[Juanita] partly.

[Elizabeth] I'm thinking you might want to put Geoff in his bind more quickly...have him start off offending Chin and Lui, or making a major mistake with their property/territory, to up the stakes a bit.

[Juanita] and in part because changing might make for a faster plunge into the stroy

[Elizabeth] And make the "dance or else" threat really really stick.

[Elizabeth] I like the idea of his reputation being mud if anybody finds out he's dancing.

[emptykube] I have a full critiuqe cued to send soon. Just putting final touches on, but the speed with which you enter the story depends on how long the novel is. You don't want the reader to get bored but you also don't want to spend capital too early either.

[Juanita] It's just over 100,000 words

[emptykube] as to the knowledge of a space station, Jame Tiptree used to say you had to start a story under ground, in the dark, and never tell the reader where they are...let the figure it out

[emptykube] is it a fast paced novel, or slow? That should also set the tone of the first chapter.

[Juanita] Both. some secitons are faster than others

[emptykube] boy i need to slow done...loosing letters all over the spctrum here.

[Elizabeth] Maybe if you start in the low-g neighborhood...the setting will become clear just from how the characters move, etc.

[emptykube] good idea elizabeth.

[Juanita] there's a thought.

[Elizabeth] I like the characters and the setting, and the conflict you've set up.

[Elizabeth] It has a lot of potential, and I want to see more chapters.

[anneliese] Same here... send more around!

[emptykube] yes...send more!

[Juanita] I have a critique date in April.

[Juanita] thank you all. I'e got to go now

[anneliese] Well, I am going to have to call it a night. Fading fast in the snowstorm.

[anneliese] Glad you could make it. Great chat!

[Elizabeth] good night, all!

[Juanita] good night

[emptykube] one of the things I like about your fiction Juanita is how close to Earth you stay...lunar colonies, space stations...its always a real plus to see how you think these societies will develop.

[anneliese] Niters!

[emptykube] okay...nighters ladies.