SFWW Chats

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Notes on upcoming chats and logs from previous ones. Come babble with the group.

Chat log for February 21, 2005

Submitted by acmfox on Mon, 02/21/2005 - 11:16pm

[Juanita] Hi CM

[camidon] Evening, Juanita!

[Juanita] Looks like we're the early birds today

[camidon] I just sent out a critique not five minutes ago for your submission.

[Juanita] I got it, thanks

[anneliese] Hi!

[camidon] Evening, Anneliese!

[Juanita] Hi Anneliese

[camidon] Great

[anneliese] Hi CM, Juanita!

[Juanita] It's always so good to find out what other people see or do not see in a story

[camidon] Totally agree, Juanita

[camidon] How are you this evening, Anneliese?

[anneliese] Recovering, but good. How about you?

[Juanita] Recovering from what?? or should I ask....

[camidon] Had a pleasant weekend. No complaints. Recovering from what? Sounds ominous.

[anneliese] I had a board meeting this week in Durham, NC. So mainly recovering from sleep deprivation.

[anneliese] Thurs thru Sunday

[Juanita] ahhh

[camidon] Ah, you should be a pro at handling that, Anneliese, after surviving NaNo last Nov!

[anneliese] LOL. Editing month is March, you know.

[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth@

[Elizabeth] hello everybody! How was your trip, Anneliese?

[camidon] Howdy, Elizabeth

[anneliese]

[Juanita] Hi Elizabeth

[camidon] Better get warmed up then, Anneliese.

[anneliese] Survived the trip, so far no plague (everyone was sick)

[anneliese] Well, I'm about half way through edits, but might start over again.

[Elizabeth] yikes! My husband has the flu.

[Elizabeth] He's occupying the couch and complaining that everything hurts.

[camidon] Please, no smooching your computer and sending any virtual plague in this direction! I mean it! to plague!

[anneliese] There seems to be too much of that going around.

[Juanita] NaNoWriMo targets a 50,000 word novel, right

[anneliese]

[anneliese] Not me!

[Juanita] What market takes novels that short?

[anneliese] Correct, Juanita

[camidon] Yep, Juanita

[anneliese] Actually, actual novel length is not important, simply the word count.

[Elizabeth] don't worry, I'm practicing safe chat.

[anneliese] Most novels were longer than that.

[anneliese] LOL, Elizabeth!

[Juanita] Oh, so you could aim at doing half a novel

[camidon] Yep

[camidon] Good for you Elizabeth!

[anneliese] Yep. It's really only about getting a certain number of words written in the timeframe.

[Elizabeth] which I haven't managed yet. Maybe next year. :P

[Juanita] Hey, CM, are you ready for us to tackle your sub?

[anneliese] My story finished at about 50K, but as a first draft it had a LOT of holes. It's going to be much longer than that.

[camidon] It's about the community and commradie of like-minded people/writers/wackos just trying to crank-out lots of words in a very short time. Other than that...

[camidon] Certainly, Juanita. I'm good to go

[Juanita] I don't have the courage to try a 50,000 work month ...yet

[anneliese] Other than the sleep deprivation, it's not that hard

[anneliese] So, CM, what would you like us to trash about your sub

[Elizabeth] I'm sleep deprived as it is. Having a six-year-old does that.

[camidon] Pretty please, Anneliese?

[anneliese] LOL!

[camidon] This submission, Continental Divide, tha I tossed to the group was something I wrote a few years ago. It dropped to the sidelines when I became interested in my "childrens" novels. Now I'm trying to decide if I should pick it up or not. So that's question #1.

[Elizabeth] are we ready to start?

[Juanita] Yes, I think you should.

[anneliese] Q1 answer: yes (I think)

[camidon] Should I pick it up again and start writing more? Did the characters and setting interest you enough/what would have interested you more?

[anneliese] How far did you get with it?

[Juanita] I noticed all but one of your protagonists are quite young. That's not a bad thing, I use young characters myself because there's so much to challenge them with

[Elizabeth] CM, I liked what I saw. It's an intriguing idea.

[Juanita] Are you aiming this to be a Juvenile or Young Adult book?

[camidon] I think? Hmm... Now that's a convoluted response! Is your brain rebelling?

[Elizabeth] What I would change is the number of shifting viewpoints in the first chapter...

[Elizabeth] introduce us to the character with the most pressing problems

[Elizabeth] and give us a chapter or two to get to know them, and to empathize with them.

[Elizabeth] Frederick's and Geryon's stories were, to me at least, the most compelling.

[Elizabeth] Erin's story runs a close second, but she's in no immediate danger.

[Elizabeth] It also occurred to me that you might want to start Geryon's narrative

[camidon] I guess I should say this: A) I've written about 45K. B) this story is set-up to span the character's lifetime, so each chapter, or after a few chapters, there is a large time jump

[Elizabeth] at the point where he decides, "To hell with this, I can't take three more years of this."

[Elizabeth] "Screw the law, I'm getting out of here before the old man kills me."

[camidon] Audience will be Adult

[Juanita] I really wanted to see the two wilderness youngsters meet up in the hospital

[Elizabeth] Because it seemed clear to me that the neighbors/community were too intimidated by Geryon's father to even question what happened to his son.

[Elizabeth] And I felt that Geryon was this close to snapping and either trying to kill the old man, or fleeing.

[Elizabeth] Not that he can do that in his present state...

[camidon] That's an interesting though, Juanita. Hmm...

[Juanita] At this time, how long do you wait before any of your main characters meet each other?

[camidon] Initially plotted, two characters meet up in C2, and then no more meet up until the end, when everyone does in the climax. However, having Geryon and Erin meet in the beginning, for a brief scene could be very, very interesting.

[Juanita] What I'm asking, I guess, is what structure you have used for the story line

[Elizabeth] Maybe meeting up with Erin could be what gives Geryon the incentive to leave.

[Elizabeth] Does he leave for the Sprawl before he turns eighteen? Try to make a run for it?

[Juanita] Are we getting another chapter? I noticed your next sub is totally different

[Juanita] I'd like to see more of this one

[camidon] Getting more depended on the responses from this critique go around; depends if I decide to devote more time to this endeavor, or tackle something new.

[Elizabeth] I'd like to see more, personally.

[anneliese] Same here

[Elizabeth] Especially how the lives of all these people intersect in the end.

[camidon] As written, Geryon does not leave early. He "swaps"

[Juanita] I'm already emotionally attached to these kids and would like to follow them along the way a little farther

[Juanita] And then maybe you could share the end???

[camidon] Well that was one thing I was wondering, if readers were interested enough to keep reading. If the characters and setting propelled the story on from here. I succeeded in that at least.

[Juanita] Where does he go, or how does he survive, the intervening three years?

[camidon] share the end? You me "spoil" the fun! What author would do that!

[Elizabeth] I can see reading to the end just to see if Frederick, Geryon and Erin get out alive.

[Juanita] Oh, well .... I had to ask

[camidon] I do give some of what happens of Geryon before the "swap"

[Juanita] This from someone who's never shared an ending

[camidon] When I started writing this, it was mainly a stab at trying to write a "different" kind of story than I was used to.

[anneliese] Yea, Juanita...when are you going to change that?

[Elizabeth] lol!

[Juanita] Not sure I will

[camidon] Something that spanned a lifetime; with different characters, from diferent pasts, all coming together in one climax at the end where they all connect for different reasons and purposes

[Elizabeth] I wasn't quite as taken with Helen's story...she's basically okay, a little dissatisfied with her life, but nothing major.

[Juanita] Trying something different is good. New kinds of projects stretch a person

[Elizabeth] If I were to tell her story, I'd start with what happened when Miss Staid City Girl went out for a night of fun, and what weird/dangerous stuff happened as a result.

[camidon] It's good to know that lots of folks don't think the story structure works. If I come back this, I'll definitely look at that in revisions.

[Juanita] As we follow the different story lines, is there something about them besides a dissatisfaction with their ipresent lot, to join them together?

[Elizabeth] feh! PHP just ate my last comment!

[camidon] Helen = ok. Sums up my feelings. She's boring, which is "kind of'" the point. Yet a "boring" person still needs to be interesting. Ugh, talk about a paradox; and interesting boring person

[Juanita] A boring person can get into 'intersesting' situations

[Elizabeth] I'd be more interested in her story if she did get into a really "interesting" situation when she decides to live a little.

[camidon] What will bind everyone together is their fasination with the border, swapping, protecting it, etc. Everything centers around the border.

[Juanita] Maybe she'll be the one who ends up swapping for some reason other than she WANTS to

[Elizabeth] Maybe something that intersects with Frederick's story, if that's not too hokey.

[camidon] Yes, Juanita! Hopefully that's what I do with Helen...

[Elizabeth] Or with the people who are after him.

[camidon] Do you mean jefferson? Who's Frederick

[Elizabeth] Oh. Jefferson. So much for my short-term memory.

[camidon] You sniff things out too good, Elizabeth, though; Helen and Jefferson do meet (C2) and things spiral out of control for a while...

[camidon] That's ok, Elizabeth, I can't remember chapter 2 of this thing, and I keep having to look at my "cheat" sheet.

[Elizabeth] I figured she had to get involved with the Pocket somehow.

[Elizabeth] Staid career girl gets into wrong neighborhood, does foolish things...

[camidon] Them meeting was probably pretty obvious as they're both centered in San Fran, and the other two are in CO and SD

[Juanita] I missed that,,,sloppy mental mapping on my part

[Elizabeth] I'm wondering what would keep Geryon where he is, other than fear/inertia.

[Elizabeth] But I do think you need to take more time with each character,

[camidon] Or not so obvious...

[Elizabeth] and introduce the one with the most compelling reason to tamper with the border first.

[camidon] More time with each character? That's good, right, it means you're interested?

[anneliese] The characters are compelling, and the story idea is definately interesting.

[Elizabeth] Yes. I am interested.

[Juanita] right

[Elizabeth] And if I got to know each character's predicament better, I'd be even more interested.

[Elizabeth] I think this has a lot of potential.

[camidon] If I break up the initial structure into smaller, more managble chapters, I could probably spend a little more time with each character

[camidon] Ah "potential" The hard part is turning that "potential" energy into "kinetic"...

[anneliese] LOL

[Elizabeth] Yeah, shorter introductory chapters, each one focused on a single character, would work better, IMHO.

[Elizabeth] If it makes you feel better, I had to do the same thing with my series.

[camidon] I agree, though, I see potential in this, and that's why I sent it out to see if other's did. I think you've given enough reason to keep poking at this.

[Juanita] Glad to hear it

[Juanita] Dropping a half finished story is like abandoning a half grown child

[camidon] Me, need to feel better? I'm great. I just had a handful of chocolate!

[anneliese] Nice image, Juanita!

[Elizabeth] In that case, CPS is about to come knocking at my door.

[camidon] Yes, so true, Juanita! And yet I have so many in all stages of life... Some even in death...

[Elizabeth] Chocolate is the miracle cure, isn't it?

[Juanita] Oh-oh

[Elizabeth] I have several adolescents. Talented, but very troubled and obnoxious, adolescents.

[Juanita] And some of mine are disabled -- I don't know if I'll ever find a cure

[camidon] I have to pick and choose which ones to nurture and grow. So hard. So hard.

[anneliese] I mainly leave mine in baskets on doorsteps.

[Juanita] I send mine out in the world, but no one wants them so they come back home

[camidon] Wow, we can put a little tag in the Forum saying: If you want to learn about extended metaphors, read this!

[Elizabeth] Mine go out, then run out of money and camp out in the garage.

[camidon] Ack! Too much. LOL! :P

[anneliese] Or something to play with in the wiki?

[Juanita] So, is there anything else we should touch on in your story CM?

[camidon] Ah, the wiki! Now that's an infant crying for attention. Some day, some day.

[camidon] I don't think so, Juanita. I've gotten what I wanted out of these critiques. Do you all have any other suggestions? Wait! IDEA sprouting: Which character would you all choose to start the story?

[anneliese] Fredrick

[anneliese]

[Juanita] Gery works for me. If you want to change, go to the little thief

[anneliese] Actually, I liked the one you started with.

[camidon] lol. You're too much Anneliese

[anneliese] I have to try, CM

[camidon] I will say this about the structure I chose for the novel. Each chapter, as written, was meant to be in the same time period. Because there will be a lot of forward time jumping at times, I htought this would be a way to ground the reader. Each chapter, with its sections is in the same time...

[camidon] Do you think there would be a way to keep the time jumps from becoming confusing, if each character or two has his or her own chapter?

[Juanita] Hmmm. Maybe a way to deal with that is to have chronological sections, each section containing a few chapters

[Elizabeth] I'd probably choose Geryon or Jefferson...Geryon perhaps first, because through his dad's work he has a knowledge of the border, etc. that the other characters might not have.

[Juanita] That, or have very large chapters broken into sub-chapters

[Elizabeth] If the time jumps but the POV character stays the same, I think the reader can figure it out.

[Elizabeth] If the POV character jumps, the timeline should stay more or less chronological. Am I making any sense?

[Juanita] If you start with the same character each section you wouldn't need to say six years later every time

[Elizabeth] Make one jump at a time. Either character or timeframe.

[Juanita] There are other ways to relating passage of time

[camidon] As the hour winds down here, my final thoughts are this: I'll most likely send out another section C2, if things stay quiet. The interest from the group warrants more attention on this baby.

[Juanita] Yaaay! I love watching kids grow up

[camidon] Any final thought from tonight's peanut gallery? <please throw only unsalted peanuts; the salt hurts my delicate skin>

[Juanita] LOL

[anneliese] Yea, at least get the thing into day care

[Juanita] I guess we'll have to lick them off first

[Elizabeth] do we have to shell them first?

[camidon] Which is what they do, Juanita.

[anneliese] Redskins or skinless?

[Elizabeth] I'm definitely interested in seeing more, CM.

[Elizabeth] Boiled or roasted?

[camidon] Sounds good, Anneliese, I've had enough with this baby's diapers

[Elizabeth] what if all I have in the house is peanut butter?

[Juanita] "I'm going to eat them.

[Elizabeth] do I need to send you our old Diaper Genie, CM?

[anneliese] Is is smooth or chunky?

[camidon] As always, thanks for you time and input. I'm always amazed how helpful and interesting these chats are.

[Juanita] good night, all. It's been fun

[Elizabeth] it's natural, so it turns chunky when you refrigerate it.

[camidon] That's ok, Elizabeth, I LOVE peanut butter.

[anneliese] Keep those submissions coming!

[Elizabeth] Grossed my son out to see that the oil and peanut stuff separate.

[camidon] Gnight, Junaita. Thanks very much for coming.

[anneliese] Glad you could make it, Juanita!

[Elizabeth] I'll get you some freshly made PB from Whole Foods.

[Elizabeth] good night, Juanita, and thanks for coming!

[Elizabeth] It's always good to talk to you.

[anneliese] Wish we had a Whole Foods around here

[Elizabeth] Or almond butter...my personal favorite

[Elizabeth] okay, maybe I need to send PB to two locations.

[Elizabeth] Come down to Dallas and stock up, Anneliese. We've got a guest bedroom.

[anneliese] When I get the time and the $$, you'll surely see me!

[Elizabeth] cool!

[camidon] Mmm Wild Oats, anyone? Have to drive a 100 miles, butit worth it!

[Elizabeth] That was my sister's fave store when she lived in Alburqueque.

[anneliese] The June board meeting might get moved to Dallas, although that's kind of a long shot.

[anneliese] No Wild Oats around here.

[Elizabeth] Hmmmm....

[anneliese] We just got a Price Chopper though.

[Elizabeth] Texas is pretty much Whole Foods territory--their HQ is in Austin.

[camidon] As always, u2, thanks for the laugh-filled, thoroughly enjoyable chat session. I think I'll go read Chapter 2 now... (should of done that BEFORE the chat.)

[anneliese] You bring out the best in us, CM

[Elizabeth] always good talking to you, CM.

[Elizabeth] Take care and watch out for flying peanuts.

[camidon] Elizabeth, I drove through San Antonio, Pharr, Fredrickburg, Eden, Abilene, Bollinger, and a whole lot of other Texas places and nonplaces when I drove to and from Mexico.

[camidon] Gnight u2

[anneliese] San Antonio... my fav place in Texas (although my SA pal now lives in Houston)

[Elizabeth] Next time you're in I35, give me a ring.

[anneliese] Niters, CM, glad you could make it.

[Elizabeth] night!

Chat log for February 7, 2005

Submitted by acmfox on Mon, 02/07/2005 - 11:16pm

[anneliese] Hey CM!
[camidon] Evening, Anneliese
[camidon] Now why do you suppose tonight the text is appearing below the last entry, and last chat it appeared above the last entry?
[camidon] <color test>
[anneliese] I tweaked the chatroom software... like?
[anneliese] I reversed the way the text shows, darkened the colors and added one more smiley.
[anneliese] Hi Juanita!
[camidon] Ahh
[Juanita] Hi
[camidon] You're too quick for me, Anneliese; Hi Juanita
[Juanita] Long time no talk
[anneliese] Yea, it's great to see you here!
[camidon] Yes, long time! How are things in the land above?
[camidon] Ah, I've found the new smiley!
[anneliese] LOL
[anneliese] I was going to add more, but it's a bit tedious and I really wanted to do something about the color choices.
[camidon] That describes me, oh so well.
[anneliese] Absolutely!
[anneliese] Hi Ross!
[Juanita] Hi ross
[camidon] Hi Ross.
[Juanita] The land above is doing great. We're back up above minus 20
[camidon] Yes, I can imagine that might be tedious. The text color choices do seem to be better
[anneliese] A heat wave!
[anneliese] Hi Mike!
[camidon] Oh that sounds positively balmy!
[emptykube] hello everyone
[Juanita] Hi MIke
[camidon] Evening, Mike
[anneliese] (remember, if you want to see more lines, use the show command)
[rcs] Hello
[Elizabeth] hello everybody!
[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!
[anneliese] Wow! The room is getting crowded!
[Elizabeth] lol Juanita! Sounds just balmy by you.
[Juanita] I haven't been to a chat in months. It looks like we're getting a good turnout
[rcs] Hi
[camidon] Wow, we're really racking up the virtual bodies tonight!
[emptykube] lots of people here tonight
[Elizabeth] hello, Ross
[camidon] Evening, Elizabeth.
[Elizabeth] CM! You're back!
[emptykube] hello elizabeth
[Elizabeth] so how was the Mexican caving experience?
[Elizabeth] hi Mike!
[Juanita] HI Elizabeth. Yes, we're enjoying a fine Feb
[Juanita] who went caving?
[camidon] Yep, I'm back. All fresh and revitalized after 7 weeks underground
[Elizabeth] lol CM...I think 7 weeks underground would have the opposite effect on me. ;-)
[camidon] Fantastic, Elizabeth. Positively hundreds of stories, above, on, and below ground.
[Juanita] It's after 8 Shall we begin?
[Elizabeth] good to see everybody again
[anneliese] Is everyone ready?
[emptykube] its after 10
[camidon] (me Juanita, with some friends in Mexico)
[Juanita] I can't imagine that long underground. didn't you ever come out????
[anneliese] Elizabeth, would you like to do the honors?
[Juanita] As you can tell, I've never been spelunking
[Elizabeth] Sure...tonight we're discussing Ross' story, "The Normal People".
[camidon] ad my caffeinated tea. good to go! (I wasn't underground all that time but on average, 8 hours a day.)
[Elizabeth] If you like, we can dispense with protocol...
[Elizabeth] Ross, before we start, are there any questions you'd like to ask, or comments you'd like to make?
[rcs] Not really. If I think of any, I'll be sure to mention them.
[Elizabeth] Okay...any questions, comments, etc. for Ross?
[Elizabeth] No protocol, so just speak up. :-)
[Elizabeth] Or are you all going to make me jump on my soapbox?
[anneliese] I'll start by saying that there are A LOT of interesting ideas presented in this story.
[Juanita] "I'm intregued by the concept. If this expands into a novel length work, you could have the prologue of 'normal' people standing out
[rcs] The thought of it turning to a novel hadn't occured to me.
[Juanita] A couple pages to show that idea
[Juanita] Unfortunately, I seem to see most stories as novels
[camidon] I agree with Anneliese. You've got a plethora of ideas. You and Bob make me jealous So many ideas presented in such a short span.
[Juanita] or parts of novels. It's one of the reasons I have such a terrible time trying to write short stories
[emptykube] I think you have an interesting idea, but need to decide where the story should start, and what to focus on.
[Elizabeth] As it is, it's more the outline of a story. Lots of telling, but not much action.
[Juanita] I like the idea of starting with John's walk down the street where he sees the two other people go into the light
[camidon] As a short story, Ross, I don't think you'd have any trouble giving the story more time as the ideas are very good.
[Elizabeth] There are lots of different aspects of this you could focus on, if you decide to make this a short story instead of a longer work.
[emptykube] this is particular story seems to want to be about John discovering the truth, but you skip that and summerize the basic idea.
[rcs] I did think I kind of rushed through a few things.
[Elizabeth] The scene in which John learns the truth did feel a little rushed. He shouldn't have the whole thing handed to him on a plate--make him puzzle out bits and pieces. Put them together himself.
[Elizabeth] As he (and the reader) discover the whole story of the "normal people", it will have a stronger impact,
[Elizabeth] and make John's final decision--and his conflict with the other "normal people"-- more plausible
[camidon] That's good that you can see that, Ross, that you feel you rushed a few things. Now you can step back and say, what should I spend more time on? (and many of us have given/ will give ideas where to do that)
[Juanita] A good way to organize athe elements you have written and what you want to add or expand on is to jot down an outline
[emptykube] This line: <You may wonder why we do this. The truth is that we don_t know. > is where it gets confused, in my opinion.
[Juanita] It also works well in positioning your plot twists and stuff
[emptykube] because not long after that, John ends up telling Turner the truth, but we never see how John learned any of what he tells Turner.
[camidon] Ah, the outline, my personal favorite. I'm a big fan, and probably one of the biggest outliners out there.
[Juanita] I agree MT I want to see someone discover the how and why
[camidon] <==== Agrees 100% with Mike
[Juanita] Me too some people scoff at outlines but they are sooooo valuable
[emptykube] CM...i'm horrible at actually outlining, but have been experimenting with limited success with "mind mapping."
[Elizabeth] We need to see John figure out parts, and maybe squeeze other parts out of Turner.
[Juanita] And samve an enormous amount of time
[Elizabeth] He can't just have the explanation handed to him.
[camidon] Mike, Mind Mapping? Is that outlining in the mind?
[emptykube] its use a graphic diagram instead of a written layout. Like drawing a picture of the story.
[rcs] Good question.
[rcs] I've never really thought of trying that.
[camidon] Oh, that's cool. Never thought of that, Mike.
[Elizabeth] One thing that helps me is breaking a story down into scenes, and figuring out what happens in each scene.
[emptykube] Ross, however you do it, its importnat to organize you're thoughts and try to keep the story focused. Sometimes the hardest part of writing is figuring out what story you need to tell instead of what you WANT to tell.
[rcs] Just out of curiosity, did every dislike the Point of View shift?
[Juanita] "I've read that's also a good way to describe sights, smells, etc by scene
[camidon] That's also how I do it, Elizabeth.
[anneliese] I didn't dislike it, but I'm not sure it was necessary. (POV shift)
[Juanita] I did. I find few stories work well as first person POV -- for me anyway
[Elizabeth] It was a distraction. Not a major distraction, but a distraction.
[Juanita] Also, the story is rather short for more than one POV
[emptykube] the POV shift as such was okay, but the change really didn't advance the story. It just told things from a different POV. In a short story, every scene, every word, every "trick" should move the plot forward and provide one more bit of information to help the reader understand what's happening.
[camidon] As to POV: No, it didn't bother me. However (oh those nasty buts), a POV shift needs to have a good reason and be used with definite intention, and I didn't get that feeling.
[Elizabeth] The other thing about the POV shift...
[Juanita] One thing I've found in doing rewrites after I've decided something is in the wrong POV is that meeting the challenges of redoing it another POV can create a more solid, better story
[camidon] Well put, MIke. Sums up my feelings nicely.
[emptykube] yes what CM said (more susinctly then I )
[Elizabeth] what character is changed by the end of the story?
[Elizabeth] It seems to me that the only character who does any growing, any changing, is John.
[Elizabeth] So it makes sense, for me, to keep John's POV.
[camidon] Lol, Mike
[emptykube] exactly, Elizabeth, but we don't see John's growth. The real story here happens behind the scenes.
[Elizabeth] The other "normal people' will keep being, well, normal.
[Elizabeth] It's that change, that growth, in John that I'd like to see as the story, and his knowledge, progress.
[Juanita] I also want to feel his fear and desires
[chris] hola
[Elizabeth] hello Chris!
[emptykube] hello
[Elizabeth] We're discussing Ross' story, "The Normal People."
[rcs] Hi
[anneliese] Hi Chris!
[Juanita] Hi Chris
[camidon] I also agree. We must see John develop as a character from his initial thoughts and feelings at the beginning, to his eventual reversal at the end,
[rcs] Join in the fun
[chris] oh poop
[Elizabeth] I wanted to know what drove John to drop his previous life and join the Normal People, and then what made him back out of it.
[chris] my battery is giving out
[chris] I just sent a crit...
[camidon] Howdy!
[Elizabeth] It sounds like the pink light is a very effective drug...you'd have to have a heck of a reason to go cold turkey...
[Juanita] Hmmmm I didn't think drug. More like sanctuary
[Juanita] Whick I suppose isn't all that different
[emptykube] The interesting thing about this, Ros is that you can be a lot mroe eerie, and descriptive by invoking the image of creatures that live at night and have to "disappear" by sunrise. You can take your time explaining whats going on and at the same time send the reader done the wrong path by invoking
[Elizabeth] That feeling of euphoria and belonging...however you get it, it would be pretty addictive.
[Elizabeth] Especially for a guy who, from the sound of it, is unhappy with his life and very much alone.
[Juanita] Put that way, Mike, it sounds vampireish. some of us really don't care for vampire stories
[emptykube] this classic horror imagry
[Elizabeth] I wanted more of John's initial situation, BTW. Does he leave behind a family, girlfriend, pets?
[emptykube] exactly, juanita
[Elizabeth] Or did he start out completely alone and sick of his high-pressure job?
[camidon] refresh/ 20
[Juanita] Good Questions Elizabeth.. that's something we should know to generate empathy for the charaacter
[anneliese] camidon> What are you tryint go refresh?
[emptykube] in one sense Juanita is right. Novel length would give time to tell about his life before, to show him drawn to what he notices as "normal people", to show us his new life, and to show us his need to return to that old life.
[camidon] I got it, Anneliese. Just a mistyp
[emptykube] That's four distinct elements that could be expanded on and fleshed out.
[camidon] (page was refreshing so often, I couldn't read the text)
[emptykube] btw, Ross...is this overwhelming yet?
[anneliese] camidon> ahhh.
[Elizabeth] There's also kind of a cult mentality to it, as well. These people get together in secret,
[rcs] Not really.
[Elizabeth] have a ritual which brings them euphoria, but they can't talk about any of it.
[Elizabeth] Or have anything to do with the outside world.
[Elizabeth] Just another way of looking at it...;-)
[camidon] We've all been there/here before, Ross Some of us still are.
[emptykube] elizabeth-----> good point, and that might breed a kind of loyalty to each other that would make what John does at the end a truly tough choice.
[rcs] Yeah, I think that John should be more conflicted too.
[camidon] The hard thing, Ross, if you keep this a short story, is picking and choosing the most important information in John's past, and then in his present, that must be related to create the story.
[Elizabeth] He's going to lose out on all of the euphoria and sense of belonging if he leaves.
[Juanita] You've got the set-up for that in place already. It's just a matter of writing it out
[Elizabeth] Kind of like leaving a religious cult...and he'll have to start all over in the big cruel world out there.
[rcs] I don't think this is going to be a short story. There's just too much going on for that.
[anneliese] You could still do a short story... you'll just have to save some of those wonderful ideas for other stories
[camidon] That's your job as author, and by golly it sure isn't easy.
[Juanita] But it's fun!
[rcs] Like a Serial type thing?
[camidon] I like your analogy, Elizabeth. Well put.
[anneliese] You could create a series of stories built on the same world.
[camidon] Ideally, Juanita, or we wouldn't all be here!
[Elizabeth] It is very cultish. And, like in many cults, the truth is never fully revealed to most members.
[Elizabeth] You have to piece it together (not that the cult leaders want you to do that),
[emptykube] aside from euphoria, there's the sense of guilt that should come once he knows he's helping to kill humans. that would make a good motivator for leaving the cult mentality behind, but you will need to show his internal conflict as well as his conflict with the "family" of other "normal people"
[Elizabeth] and the truth may very well drive you to leave the cult altogether.
[Elizabeth] Which will sever all ties between you and the people who still believe...
[Elizabeth] while your previous life will cause the outside world to regard you with suspicion.
[camidon] <=== Agrees with Mike. This falls into the "development" category, developing John so we seem him grow and change as the world of the "normal people" is revealed to him.
[camidon] The end will depend on how John grows and changes throughout the entire story.
[emptykube] see ross...sometimes what appears to be a simple idea becomes so much more complicated when you invite other minds to comment
[rcs] Half this stuff never occurred to me while I was writing it.
[Elizabeth] lol! often seems to happen when you get us all together.
[Juanita] Now you just have to choose what works for you and hit the keyboard
[emptykube] CM...a nice eerie character driven yarn
[camidon] Lol, Mike
[Elizabeth] One of the many reasons for rewriting, Ross. After looking over the finished story, and having other writers do the same, you can see where the story lies, or at least choose which thread of the story to follow.
[Juanita] It seems some of the best stuff stays hidden in our minds until someone prods it with one of their ideas
[emptykube] that's what we're here for ross...to send you out into left field where you never expected to be when you sat down to write.
[camidon] That's why no two writers will ever really write the same story. Everyone's take is just ever so different.
[Elizabeth] It's not something most people can figure out until they've finished the first draft, looked it over, and reviewed it carefully.
[Elizabeth] It sometimes takes more than one rewrite to figure out where a story should go.
[Elizabeth] And some short stories have a bad habit of growing into novels. :-)
[camidon] Or a second draft... or the third draft, or the fourth...
[emptykube] (while many novels should have stayed short stories)
[Elizabeth] lol Mike!
[camidon] Lol
[Juanita] LOL .... but true
[emptykube]
[Juanita] So, is there any aspect of Normal People we should talk over that we missed?
[Juanita] Maybe it needs more than the two characters we met
[camidon] As the hour comes to a close, do have any other questions of concerns, Ross?
[Juanita] There should be someone striving to keep John in the group of pink stuff
[emptykube] should we give Ross a chance to throw in a couple of comments?
[Juanita] an antagonis
[Juanita] t
[camidon] Maybe the first two "normal people" John meets should have bigger roles in the middle, development sections?
[camidon] They provide a perfect "in" into the world of the "normal people"
[Elizabeth] True. Maybe Turner is one of the first two "normal people" John meets.
[emptykube] bigger in the middle section? you mean they should have larger bellies? be fatter?
[rcs] clever
[anneliese] LOL Mike!
[Elizabeth] and, as John expresses his misgivings, Turner first tries to calm him down,
[Elizabeth] then, as John gets closer to the truth, Turner turns on him.
[Elizabeth] (yeah, I know, bad pun.)
[camidon] Mike D)
[rcs] I don't think this chat will ever end.
[camidon] just kidding, of course.
[rcs] Of course.
[emptykube] oh it will ross...it just seems like eternity when its your story.
[anneliese] Well, it's been a good chat, with lots of good ideas.
[Elizabeth] Five minutes left...any final comments/ideas for Ross?
[camidon] No, no, Ross, the incidence of bad puns and jokes means this chat is very SOON to be over!
[Juanita] Take what suggestions work for you and run with them, ross. You've got some good ideas
[emptykube]
[rcs] I think this was a great experience. The suggestions seem never ending.
[Elizabeth] There are a lot of good ideas in this story, Ross, now you need to figure out where the focus of the story is.
[rcs] Well, I gotta go.
[rcs] Good night.
[Elizabeth] Or if this story is crying out to be expanded.
[anneliese] We'd all feel awful, if you felt this was a bad experience.
[camidon] High noon it is MIke, across from the saloon with the swining doors.
[emptykube] just remember this when its time for one of our stories and we seem at a loss for ideas
[anneliese] Good night.
[Elizabeth] Good night, and good luck with the rewrite! ;-)
[Juanita] What I really like about these is they give me ideas for stuff I'm working on. discussions make you look at things a little differently
[Elizabeth] CM, Mike, where do you get those smileys?
[anneliese] Click on the question mark next to the typing box.
[camidon] good night, Ross. Good luck, and keep writing! We'd love to see a second draft.
[emptykube] in the help area...click on the question mark
[Elizabeth] yeah, Juanita, I know what you're saying...I get lots of ideas from these chats.
[emptykube] yeah ross...good writing. have fun...keep up the good work.
[Juanita]
[anneliese] Same here... the chats are great for the creative juices.
[Juanita] I found a smily
[Juanita] Ross has left. Does he get a copy of this?
[anneliese] lol, Juanita!
[emptykube] clapping for juanita
[anneliese] I'll post this on the message board.
[emptykube] not if he left early!
[anneliese] (The smileys don't travel to the message board )
[Elizabeth] thanks Anneliese!
[camidon] Anneliese, I must complain about the new way the chat refreshes, though maybe its me. Now everytime the page reloads, it loads all the previous stuff and I have to wait for the page to jump to the bottom, instead of the newest lines always being at the top. Does that make sense?
[Juanita] Thank you. I guess I should go, too
[anneliese] Yes, it does, CM. I think the speed of your connection makes a difference.
[Elizabeth] thanks for chatting, Juanita, it's good to talk to you!
[emptykube] me too...nighters everyone.
[Juanita] That's upside down, CM I get the new writing on the bottom
[Juanita] Nice to chat with you all again. I've missed it
[Elizabeth] found the smileys!
[anneliese] I can reset the order the way it used to be.
[emptykube] btw...anneliese thanks for sending around my email change...I'm finally cashing out of AOL once and for all... its been way too long.
[camidon] ah the smileys. Oh how much smoother our chats would run if we didn't have them, but how much fun would be lost in the trade off.
[Juanita] See you next week. Maybe-- isit an AOL day?
[anneliese] Next week is AOL chat.
[camidon] gnight. That's true, Anneliese, and I know I've got a slow connection, but it never seemed a problem before. Then again, we rarely have this many people.
[anneliese] Glad you could make it tonight, Juanita.
[Juanita] Okay, I won't be there. If you're messing with the pages, I like the writing on the bottom.
[Elizabeth] good night Juanita!
[emptykube] i may make it. we have AOL till the end of Feb.
[Juanita] Yes. Good night all.
[anneliese] I think that the speed of the connection/computer makes a difference on the referesh rate... as well as the number of lines from the show command.
[emptykube] nighters jaunita
[anneliese] I hope you all make it next week!
[camidon] nighters, Juanita.
[anneliese] If this is a problem for you, CM, I'll switch the order... I was actually liking it better the other way.
[Elizabeth] Well, it was good talking to everybody...
[anneliese] (Wish I could make the order command work)
[camidon] agreed, Anneliese. Doesn't matter to me if you reset it. Not that I'm use to it, it's no big deal.
[anneliese] Good talking to you also!
[emptykube] yes...it was nice to have a crowd for once
[anneliese] Fun chat! Been a long time with so many in the room.
[Elizabeth] That went really, really well, IMO.
[camidon] (now that I'm use to it, that is). I also tried the "order" command to no avail.
[emptykube] too many more and we'll be forced to use potocol.
[anneliese] What about the colors... better? more changes?
[anneliese] More smileys?
[camidon] agreed. Very good chat, all around. Colors seemed much improved.
[Elizabeth] I probably don't need too many smileys. I'm easily distracted. :0
[Elizabeth]
[emptykube] well...see you folks another time...and CM....how bout that email a day till you see a story of mine in the que? huh? Huh? could really use a good nagging
[Elizabeth] Colors are much better.
[Elizabeth] Good night, Mike, it was good talking to you!
[camidon] No, no more smileys. Save us before it's too late
[emptykube] of course everyone is invited to nag me, too...
[anneliese] I guess we'll save the smileys for the message board.
[emptykube] night elizabeth. night anneliese, night CM...night John boy......
[camidon] Consider it done, Mike! <writing post-it not to remember> Gnight, Mike
[Elizabeth] Nag me, too. I need to get off my rear and start writing again.
[anneliese] Do we need an automated nagging system?
[Elizabeth] I also need to log off and get some other stuff done :::sigh:::
[anneliese] Same here... it's late in this eastern time zone...
[anneliese] I'm just going to capture the log and post it.
[Elizabeth] CM, Anneliese, good night!
[camidon] Thank you as always, splendid hosts. good night
[anneliese] Nighters, everyone.

Chat log for December 27, 2004

Submitted by acmfox on Mon, 12/27/2004 - 11:11pm

[anneliese] Hi Ross!
[rcs] hey.
[rcs] how are you doing?
[anneliese] For some reason, I like the color switcher better here.
[anneliese] Doing good. Did you have a good holiday?
[rcs] yeah.
[anneliese] I hope your connection is better tonight.
[rcs] and you?
[rcs] I hope so too.
[anneliese] Not bad. Getting some writing done
[anneliese] With the holiday, I don't know how many will show up tonight.
[rcs] any idea how many are showing up tonight?
[anneliese] (We're anticipating each other)
[anneliese] It could be another slow night.
[rcs] in some ways that creeps me out.
[anneliese] But you have my nearly-undivided attention
[rcs] true
[anneliese] It's the holidays... people are off doing other things. The chat I attended last night was very slow also.
[anneliese] I think Elizabeth is out of town... probably visiting relatives.
[anneliese] How have the critiques been on your story?
[rcs] I've only gotten one, and I can't really make a judgement based on that. It made some good points though.
[anneliese] If I get the chance, I'll send you one.
[rcs] OK
[anneliese] And, we can discuss it tonight, if you wish.
[anneliese] When I do critiques, I usually don't send them to the whole group, only the author.
[anneliese] Don't imagine that my critiques are better than anyone else's, though...they aren't!
[rcs] That's why I didn't want to make a judgement based on only one.
[anneliese] Best not to. A critique is just someone's opinion, after all...it doesn't have to mean too much.
[anneliese] How do you feel about the story?
[rcs] Looking back I see a few things I could improve on. I thought it was good start though.
[anneliese] I agree. A good start. I'd certainly like to see more.
[anneliese] Do you feel that you were able to accomplish what you set out to do?
[rcs] I think so. My main objective was to set up the events for a couple of stories that take place after this one.
[anneliese] Cool.
[anneliese] You seem to have the 3 'C's in this story: a Character with whom we can sympathize, a Context, and a Conflict.
[rcs] Yeah. It stills needs some work though.
[Elizabeth] hi there!
[anneliese] What I took away was a hunger for more of the context...you've created an interesting world, and I want to see more of it!
[rcs] Hello
[anneliese] HI Elizabeth!
[Elizabeth] Sorry I'm late.
[anneliese] Glad you could make it!
[anneliese] By the way, Ross, what are Sedwa Warriors?
[Elizabeth] I'm glad, too. ;-)
[rcs] I agree that it needs more detail. Sedwa Warriors are a kind of knights that I should have gone into more detail about. Alec is one.
[anneliese] If all of your stories explore the life of Sedwa Warriors, you might not need too much detail here...although we readers might want to know why they are included in this project.
[Elizabeth] More detail on that could be helpful...explains more about Alec's background, his motives for being on a hostile planet, and the unusual powers he has.
[Elizabeth] I thought that the story, while a good start, needed more detail overall.
[rcs] I kind of rushed this story a little bit, I think. Right after I sent it, I saw several flaws in the story.
[anneliese] Will you fix them on a rewrite?
[Elizabeth] I liked your description of the coral caves, and of Alec's struggle to stay conscious and keep moving after he's been hurt. That's the kind of narrative detail that sparks a reader's interest.
[anneliese] <== agrees with Elizabeth. I thought that was well done. Overall, you have some very visual writing.
[Elizabeth] Other parts of the narrative read more like a summary than a story. Does that make sense?
[rcs] I think I'll make some changes. I'm not quite sure what yet.
[rcs] Yeah. I was trying to focus on Alec plight, but wanted to give some background and may have sumarized that too much.
[anneliese] (We're not trying to gang up on you...think of us as a resource to tap for ideas, if you like.)
[Elizabeth] Backstory is always tricky...too much of it slows down your narrative.
[rcs] Don't worry about it. I don't mind being ganged up on by peo
[Elizabeth] But you probably need some to explain why Alec is on the run.
[anneliese] For me, I often have to write my story as a summary first, then go back and rewrite it with the proper amount of detail for it to work.
[rcs] ple I can't even see.
[anneliese] lol
[rcs] Balancing the Background was probably the biggest obstacle. I definitely will work on that.
[Elizabeth] I wanted the story to start right when Alec's alien friend tells him that her people are now at war with the colonists, and that she can't protect him any longer.
[rcs] I agree. I think that might have been a better starting point.
[Elizabeth] That was, in my opinion, where the story really got going.
[Elizabeth] And I still wasn't quite sure why Alec was on this planet. A diplomatic mission? Business? Protection for the colonists?
[Elizabeth] Or was I just being thick?;-)
[anneliese] I also wondered... is this the colonists' final destination, or just a stop along the way?
[rcs] He was supposed to the military presence in the colony. More of a secuirity advisor then anything.
[Elizabeth] Ah. If they had nowhere else to go, that increases the stakes, and the suspense, considerably.
[Elizabeth] And how important is this colony to Alec? To his career? To his purpose and sense of duty?
[rcs] I hadn't thought about that. The current portion of the story I've thought out is on this planet, but it may go elsewhere in the parts I haven't thought about. Suspense is always a good thing.
[rcs] I was tried to make part of the story his realization that the colony wasn't important, but the lack of detail may have made that get lost.
[rcs] all important, I meant
[Elizabeth] So...he found something more important than the survival of the colony?
[anneliese] The duty isn't important to Alec...or the colony isn't important?
[rcs] Duty isn't all important. His happiness is also vital, and he learns that while "dying".
[anneliese] I think you hint at that pretty well.
[Elizabeth] There was definitely a personal revelation for Alec in that "dying" sequence.
[rcs] Yeah. I intended part of it to be acceptance, and part a deeper learning.
[anneliese] If you wanted, you could use the scene with the mystic to forshadow that revelation.
[Elizabeth] My question would be, what was the deeper learning?
[rcs] That he should have stayed with Cecillia, and that the whole mess would have been avoided if he had.
[rcs] But obviously it takes almost dying to learn that.
[Elizabeth] The whole mess? Do you mean his situation, or the war?
[anneliese] Or did he have to leave Cecilia in order to really learn that he loved her?
[rcs] I don't yet. Definitely his own situation. I might have some deeper cause for the war linked in that.
[rcs] I think he realized that he really did love her while he was there, I guess he had to leave her to realize it.
[anneliese] It is an important and difficult realization to learn that you cannot live without someone.
[Elizabeth] So the main conflict and main revelations are internal, and the external conflict is icing on the cake.
[anneliese] (hope that makes sense)
[rcs] It makes sense. The gravity of the realization could be clearer.
[Elizabeth] Yes, I agree.
[anneliese] Are there any questions you'd like to ask Elizabeth or me?
[Elizabeth] And if, in the beginning of the story, Alec is obsessing over politics and the logistics of evacuating colonists, how to deal with the aliens, everything but his personal life...
[rcs] None that I can think of right now.
[Elizabeth] which creeps in when he least expects or wants it...
[Elizabeth] the realization will hit that much harder. Just my two cents.
[rcs] I like that idea of him obsessing over the politics and such. I thnk that would work.
[anneliese] I'd like to see what you do with this story in rewrite.
[rcs] I'm looking forward to doing a rewrite. It could be good.
[anneliese] You have a lot of good ideas here.
[Elizabeth] <===agrees w/Anneliese
[rcs] Thanks.
[rcs] I think I've said all I can think of about it. How about you?
[anneliese] For tonight, I think....anything else y'all want to yak about?
[Elizabeth] You've got a lot of good ideas and some nice, visual, evocative scenes. Keep working on this.

Chat log for December 6, 2004

Submitted by acmfox on Mon, 12/06/2004 - 11:16pm

[camidon] Thank you, I will be polite.
[camidon] was in the andromenda cafe, i had the nasty bar; now, in the asteroid lounge, I have the drop down menu.
[anneliese] Oh, yes, I have that bar too!
[anneliese] Nice Colors. Hi CM!
[camidon] Evening, Anneliese.
[anneliese] When do you leave for Mexico?
[camidon] let's try the darker green
[anneliese] And the dark red.
[camidon] <much better> I leave this Friday.
[anneliese] You must be excited.
[camidon] The red really stands out.
[anneliese] (I'm excited for you)
[anneliese] Kind of seasonal colors, don't you think?
[camidon] Yes, excited, exhilirated, a little nervous, and already missing the familiar even though I haven't left!
[anneliese] LOL, as it should be!
[camidon] Oh, gosh, you're right. lol
[anneliese] I wasn't sure whether to write a critique tonight, or just hope you'd show up.
[Elizabeth] hello there!
[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!
[Elizabeth] CM, I'm green with envy over your trip. Except for the caving part, which would probably send me into claustrophobic fits. ;-)
[camidon] Just started the packing; had been gathering supplies for the last month, but now its time to cram it into as small a bag(s) as possible!
[camidon] Evening, Elizabeth.
[Elizabeth] And congratulations, both of you, on making the NaNoWriMo numbers!
[Elizabeth] I failed even more miserably than usual. :-)
[anneliese] Thanks.
[anneliese] There's no such thing as failing, Elizabeth
[camidon] Thank you, but don't forget, failing is a whole lot better then not even trying!
[Elizabeth] Okay...let's rephrase it...I set a low-word-count record this year.
[camidon] lol
[Elizabeth] I should probably put off the NaNoWriMo thing until I'm employed full-time and doing extra stuff for kiddo's school. For some reason I work best when overextended.
[anneliese] When I am not busy enough, I tend to accomplish nothing at all, so I know exactly what you mean.
[camidon] Nothing like the added pressure.
[anneliese] How are your job prospects?
[Elizabeth] Getting better. Had an interview Friday and two today.
[Elizabeth] Knock wood, I'll have something by January.
[anneliese] Sounds hopeful.
[camidon] Good luck, <fingers crossed>
[Elizabeth] so how long is this trip for, CM?
[camidon] How are things in Conn, Anneliese? Things back to normal after NaNo?
[anneliese] Getting there, work is still very slow, the final week push of NaNo got me exhausted to the point that I was sick all last week, but things are better now...up to scene 6 in edits.
[Elizabeth] Good for you, Anneliese!
[camidon] Technically; it's on going. I leave this Friday. And I have to be back no later then Feb 1 (7 weeks or so) Some people may stay longer.
[anneliese] And tomorrow is next appt. for hubby with the neuro-opthamologist.
[Elizabeth] How's your husband doing?
[camidon] Bummer on the sickness, but it was all for the writing right? Congrats on the ongoing edits!
[anneliese] Make that Wednesday. He's doing better. He still has a little over half the vision in the left eye, and right eye is showing some improvement.
[Elizabeth] I'm glad to hear that. Have they figured out what was/is going on?
[anneliese] Right, CM, now that I've seriously started writing again...I can't stop! I am going to get this through the second draft and sick it onto you!
[camidon] That sounds hopeful. again <fingers crossed for you>
[camidon] PLease do!
[anneliese] What he has is called pseudo tumor cerebri. It is an elevated pressure in the spinal fluid, which in turn, causes constriction of the optic nerve.
[anneliese] You're lucky you're leaving for Mexico this Friday, or I'd be sending you stuff now, hee hee.
[camidon] I promise I won't do this: to your manuscript (Have to put it in once a chat)
[Elizabeth] Ah. I hope he and you keep making progress...I want to see what you're working on!
[anneliese] Oh, please, I was looking forward to that, CM!
[camidon] I still have three days...
[anneliese] Don't tempt me!
[camidon] I think I've been tempting you all of November!
[anneliese] But we should be talking about your sub tonight!
[anneliese] You got my opening...what more did you want?
[Elizabeth] I'm ready to talk about the sub if you'd like, CM. ;-)
[camidon] I'm always open to feedback, but it's so much more fun to pester others about writing!
[camidon] Sure, my virtual ears are all open!
[anneliese] Well, I especially liked your last line of the rewrite.
[camidon] umm, that should be BOTH ope. I don't have more than two, at least, I don't think so.
[Elizabeth] <===agrees w/Anneliese. I loved the closing line of the new version.
[camidon] Anneliese, you mean, the Casablanca homage <sp?>
[Elizabeth] just how many virtual ears do you have, CM? Inquiring minds want to know.
[anneliese] It is about as splendidly ambiguous as you could get.
[Elizabeth] The part I'm thinking of is where Raymond says, "I'll be damned" and CaComp replies, "Not if I can help it."
[anneliese] Exactly.
[camidon] That's good to know; Eddy did not. I thought it summarized the story rather well.
[Elizabeth] So did I.
[camidon] Okay, so that's good, now please, pull out your howitzers, let me have it!
[anneliese] There were a couple of typos?
[Elizabeth] Are you sure about that, CM? :evil grin:
[anneliese] lol
[Elizabeth] There were paragraphs that seemed choppy to me: lots of short sentences, one right after the other.
[anneliese] It felt a tiny bit rushed...as if you could have taken more time (ala more words) with it.
[Elizabeth] And I sometimes had to read twice to distinguish Raymond's internal monologues from the dialogue/action.
[camidon] <Damn typos> (refraining from inserting certain smiley icon) In one of other stories I spent a week examining every darn paragraph six times, before moving on to see if that dimishes the typos. We'll see in the future...
[Elizabeth] Perhaps that's because you didn't want to use underlining or italics in this draft. I enjoyed Raymond's internal conflict and wanted to see it stand out.
[anneliese] Nope....typos are best resolved by someone not too close to the work.
[camidon] Any specific spots that felt rushed or choppy.
[anneliese] You just can never see them all.
[camidon] true, true, about the typos
[camidon] Elizabeth, Would you suggest using Italics?
[Elizabeth] I especially liked the description of Greg's desk toy. Very Captain-Queegish, and I loved watching Ray "crush Greg's balls" in the second-to-last scene. Great metaphor for how Raymond finally stands up to his jerk of a boss.
[Elizabeth] Italics would help, yes.
[anneliese] Well, one thing I liked about this version was that Ray really changes as a result of his experience, but it felt too fast, like I wanted one more scene with the robot to cement the change.
[Elizabeth] The first paragraphs--where Raymond is trying to figure out what's wrong with CaComp--seemed a little jerky to me, a little rushed. Lots of short sentences.
[Elizabeth] And there was some awkward description of Greg's office and his energy-ball desk toy.
[anneliese] <==agrees w/Elizabeth about the desk toy
[camidon] Ah those balls of steel...
[Elizabeth] Perhaps you can describe it by showing Greg playing with it, and how that play annoys the hell out of Raymond, as Greg lectures him.
[Elizabeth] Maybe Greg keeps smacking the two balls together so that the noise is just as loud and annoying the fiftieth time as the first, or makes them take wild trajectories,
[camidon] OK, so one more possible scene to cemet the transformation. Any ideas what it could be?
[Elizabeth] or fondles one in one hand...more of the Captain Queeg reference.
[Elizabeth] What if Raymond shares his poem with CaComp?
[camidon] Good idea, about Greg toying with the balls, very in his character (as stock as he may be)
[Elizabeth] Shows that he's taking CaComp's transformation, and his, seriously, and that he's willing to deal with the robot as with another sentient being.
[Elizabeth] It could also flesh out CaComp's personality, for instance, if Raymond tells CaComp that his poem stunk and CaComp praises it. "It is an excellent poem, Raymond Weathers. It rhymes, the rhythm is correct, and it expresses your feelings perfectly."
[camidon] That's also a good idea. Will have to try it. That would be a subtle way to show how Ray is starting to take CaComp seriously.
[camidon] oh that's funny!
[Elizabeth] Or what if CaComp mentions Raymond's leap of faith--the fact that he finally stood up to Greg and quit his lousy job without a secure backup.
[Elizabeth] :::blushes::: thanks.
[camidon] You two are on a roll tonight! Great ideas left and right! <Eating them up greedily>
[Elizabeth] Because leaving this lousy job is such a big step for Raymond...up to this point he's been too afraid to do much of anything.
[anneliese] Oh, no...the pressure's on me now
[camidon] You're right. A little more time would be good. And then a line like that about faith, would be the perfect crack in Ray's disbelief. He's see the duality.
[Elizabeth] Nah, Anneliese, you've been sick. Plus you've been writing like a mofo...cut yourself some slack.
[camidon] No no, Anneliese, the only pressure is to submit your stuff!
[anneliese] You guys are going to be so sorry...
[camidon] Ah yes, NaNoMoFo. Hmmm... Where's the smiley with the halo when you need it!
[Elizabeth] roflmao!
[Elizabeth] That'll be the name for my website, when I finally get around to setting one up.
[anneliese] lol
[camidon] We'll jump that gorge (about being sorry) when we get there! No regrets!
[camidon] ditto the roflmao
[camidon] One critter asked: "I was wondering why a psychiatrist would be sent to see a robot." Is this a problem in your minds? That it's not really answered WHY Ray has to go see CaComp?
[Elizabeth] Greg's enough of a jerk that he would throw people at CaComp until he got the answer he wanted.
[anneliese] Because it's the reverse of Eliza
[Elizabeth] I just assumed that the engineers and programmers didn't give Greg the answer he wanted, or he just wanted to jerk Raymond around.
[anneliese] Good answer, Elizabeth...that was my conclusion.
[Elizabeth] The very illogic, and arbitrary nature, of Raymond's visit highlights just how crummy his job is.
[camidon] My kind of logic too, Elizabeth.
[anneliese] But I still like the Eliza reverse-analogy.
[Elizabeth] If the boss is crummy enough, no logic is necessary.
[camidon] Reverse of Eliza? Not following.
[anneliese] Eliza was the first computer program to pretend to be a psychologist.
[camidon] Wow, how about that, I didn't know that.
[anneliese] But maybe I have the name wrong.
[camidon] That's really intersting.
[anneliese] Predates AI in its infancy...a product of the 60's
[camidon] "arbitrary nature, of Raymond's visit highlights just how crummy his job is" Or perhaps how crummy my knowledge of pyschologists is!
[camidon] I'll have to look up some references.
[Elizabeth] No, you have the name right. I remember dealing with Eliza in a college computer programming course.
[anneliese] If you are going to assume that this *company* has psychologists, then Raymond can be believable.
[anneliese] I've met some pretty not-so-intelligent psycholists.
[anneliese] Or, rather, psychologists that probably should have had other careers, but were not cut out for anything else.
[camidon] That was my thought too, Anneliese. If the story was longer maybe it would matter. But it's just a short romp through religion, robotics, and bad poetry. Oh and balls of steel!
[Elizabeth] Ahhh. And Raymond would be easy to pigeonhole in that way, because he's so afraid of change and of asserting himself.
[camidon] That sums of Ray pefectly.
[anneliese] Gotta have those balls of steel!
[Elizabeth] Or he could be the put-upon HR guy, the one who gets hauled in to do psychiatric evals of employees the company wants to get rid of.
[Elizabeth] Greg's had it with CaComp and sees no reason why he can't make Raymond do a write-up on CaComp as well.
[anneliese] Or someone the computer programmers can go to--to test their newest robotic-human interaction protocols.
[anneliese] So he has to test the robot, because he must have screwed up telling the computer programmers something in development.
[camidon] Yes, this is kind of straight out of Office Space, only with robots, religion, oh and those balls of steel if I haven't mentioned them.
[Elizabeth] Exactly.
[anneliese] At least they aren't balls of plastic.
[camidon] But is that desperately needed, that reason for Ray to be there? Does it have to be stated?
[Elizabeth] Good idea, Anneliese.
[Elizabeth] I don't think so, really. The whole company has a very Dilbertesque or "Office Space" feel to it.
[camidon] lol
[anneliese] I don't see any reason that it has to be stated. But, if you know the reason, it helps to flavor your explanations and interactions between characters.
[Elizabeth] And there are employees, in sufficiently big or old companies, who get in somehow and just cling to their cubes like limpets.
[anneliese] Too true.
[camidon] To me, that's really tangential to the story so I scrapped it all together. Not that those ideas aren't good, because again, you two are on fire tonight with good idea.
[camidon] Very true, Anneliese.
[anneliese] I agree. It is pretty tangential.
[anneliese] (love using that word...tangential)
[camidon] <ack> The mere thought of clininging to those cubes makes by spine shiver (thinking about Mexico. thinking about Mexico thinking about Mexico thinking about Mexico thinking about Mexico)
[anneliese] LOL
[anneliese] It's actually clinging to the paycheck.
[Elizabeth] And the water cooler.
[camidon] True, true. Many wallets are stitched to those cubes.
[Elizabeth] And the red Swingline stapler.
[anneliese] Gotta have that water cooler!
[anneliese] Red! I want a red Swingline stapler!
[Elizabeth] And the coffeemaker, so that they can get their java at just the right sludgy consistency.
[camidon] What a great simile, like limpets. I love it!
[anneliese] That reminds me...I was going to make cappucino tonight.
[Elizabeth] Or barnacles. Those things are murder to get off of a boat's hull.
[Elizabeth] lol Anneliese!
[camidon] Can I sip from that well of metaphors from which you must be drinking, Elizabeth?
[Elizabeth] I had a coworker at my first programming job...one of those guys who started back in the "scratch the instructions into the bare metal days"...
[camidon] Ah, cappucino and barnacles, those two thought go so well together!
[Elizabeth] He actually waited an hour after the first pot was brewed because he *liked* his coffee thick and extra-bitter.
[anneliese] egad!
[Elizabeth] Take a drink, CM, but keep an antacid handy.
[Elizabeth] Metaphors can give you a wicked case of acid reflux.
[camidon] <topic shift> Anneliese, Any word on some of those online contacts you mentioned? A new members in the wind?
[anneliese] I sent out 2 joining letters last week. I may follow-up this week if I don't hear anything from either of them.
[camidon] <Adding to shopping list, buy antacids.>
[camidon] Well, the mere contact is good.
[anneliese] True. One sounded serious, couldn't tell with the other.
[camidon] Any other glorious ideas for "Divine Transformation"?
[Elizabeth] <topic re-switch> CM, I did like the second draft a lot better. With a little polishing it should find a good home.
[anneliese] Hire an illuminator to paint decals on the robot?
[Elizabeth] For some reason, SF writers don't tend to do humor.
[Elizabeth] lol!
[Elizabeth] give the robot loose wires in a televangelist up-do?
[anneliese] Yes, seriously, the second version is a good story.
[camidon] Before we wrap this up tonight? <though chatting with you two is one big giggle fest after another)
[anneliese] Yes?
[camidon] Wow, that post came late to the board.
[camidon] I do like this NaNo induced jaunt.
[Elizabeth] Oooh. The robot can probably generate static electrical charges large enough to knock people out--or robots--and "slay them in the Spirit".
[Elizabeth] Okay. I'm definitely going to Hell for that last remark. >:-)
[anneliese] LOL
[camidon] Rewrote "Divinie Transformation" in an evening of NaNO induced procrastination. Who knew you could procrastinate writing by, um, writing!
[camidon] HA!! LOL
[anneliese] Really, I am so amazed by your overall productivity last month, CM
[Elizabeth] Just think of all the cool electrical stuff CaComp will be able to do, with Raymond's tutelage. ::really evil grin::
[Elizabeth] As am I. My tiny little mind boggles at the amount of writing you two have done.
[camidon] That, just might be another story. I'd love to see CaComp in a glass cathedral with robes!
[anneliese] You've been known to knock the words out, Elizabeth.
[anneliese] Ooo, yes, that could be even more fun, CM.
[Elizabeth] So would I, CM.
[camidon] Had to write, or would have felt guilty in Mex.
[Elizabeth] And lots of great big video screens.
[camidon] You'll hit another groove yourself, Elizabeth, eventually. CaComp has ordained it thus!
[Elizabeth] I actually started on a couple of stories during November...now if I can just finish them up and get them out.
[anneliese] All bow to the holy CaComp!
[camidon] Ideas, Ideas. Everywhere! Fabulous.
[anneliese] My downfall...never finish...never get anything out.
[camidon] Well, the minutes slip by as they always do. Any last comments?
[Elizabeth] Ditto.
[Elizabeth] I have so much fun chatting with you all, but the Whippet of Mass Destruction wants to play...I'd probably better say goodnight.
[anneliese] I like where this story is going, and I'm jealous that you're going caving in Mexico, and we are going to miss you terribly!
[anneliese] It's been very much fun.
[anneliese] And I have to wake up hubby to send him to bed.
[Elizabeth] Yes, have a wonderful time in Mexico, CM!
[anneliese] I'm glad you both could make it tonight.
[camidon] I'll be back, the weeks will fly, I'm sure.
[Elizabeth] I'm jealous, even though I'd probably spend all of my time stomping around pre-Columbian ruins and eating.
[camidon] Thanks, you to have food holidays
[camidon] Um, I meant GOOD holidays, though I suppose FOOD holidays works too...
[anneliese] LOL...was working for me!
[Elizabeth] Food holidays works for me, too. :-)
[anneliese] Take lots of pictures.
[camidon] Thanks for both of you coming. Fun as always.
[Elizabeth] Take care, and send us pics!
[camidon] gnight, then. Keep Writing!
[anneliese] Niters!
[camidon] willdo, gnight
[Elizabeth] good night!

Chat log for November 29, 2004

Submitted by acmfox on Mon, 11/29/2004 - 11:04pm

[anneliese] Hi CM!

[camidon] Hello, Hello!

[camidon] Congratulations!

[anneliese] Same to you!

[anneliese] Of course, I'm toast now

[camidon] Thank you! I'm so glad someone else from the group was able to grind themselves to the bone and pull it out!

[anneliese] The worst was the last 500 words...my story actually ended at around 49K

[camidon] Toast? Well, for a little while that's okay. Isn't that why this only comes once a year? Oh, but Christmas is coming too. Looks like these once a year things never end!

[anneliese] LOL

[camidon] Yeah, your pm message said that, How frustrating! So you flowered up your prose did you? <it's okay, I won't tell.>

[anneliese] No, I went back and began editing...the story is probably 95% tell, 5% show, so there's room to add/edit

[camidon] Hey, Did you know Juanita was "lurking" and thinking about hopping back into the swing of things, before I got the critique out of the blue? That was quite the pleasant surprise.

[anneliese] Spent about 6 hours coming up with the last 300 words.

[anneliese] No, I didn't know Juanita was lurking, but I was sure happy to see her jump in.

[camidon] So that means you've written a condensced 200,000 word novel, into 50,000, and now you've got the next year to inflate it, breath after agonizing breath!

[anneliese] LOL, I guess so!

[camidon] Yeah, but you got those last 300 words, that's all that matters! You have <humble> bragging rights over the group for the next year.

[anneliese] I don't know what this month did for you, but it has certainly kickstarted my writing again. It's all I want to do now!

[anneliese] I share the bragging rights with you, good sir

[camidon] That's fantastic.

[anneliese] I came home and promptly got back to editing chapter 1.

[camidon] That's strange, that post about the "humble bragging" rights didn't show up for me. Hmm.

[anneliese] hmmm...very strange.

[anneliese] seems to be a bit of a lag on the posting.

[camidon] Well, while I'm away for 7 weeks, I plan to bring 4 book manuscripts and begin the major process or hacking and slashing, and book 4 (the nano festival) certainly needs a lot of editting.

[anneliese] I admire your dedication...don't think I'd get much editing done where you're going

[camidon] Of course, I have to finish it, first! Ack, my goal of Novemeber is slipping through the cracks even in NaNo was a success. Three chapters to go.

[anneliese] You can do it!

[camidon] Well, I am driving down with three other people, and that's going to take the better part of the week, so I hope to be productive on those long, desolate, and bumpy roads in the desert, along the coast, and in the jungle.

[anneliese] You must have a strong constitution...I can't read in a car.

[camidon] As you had trouble with those last 300 words, these last 3 chapters are coming out agonizingly slow; it's not the last chapters of the book actually, I already wrote those, it's the climax with the large battle that's dragging me about, and that's not usally the case.

[anneliese] Oh, I know that problem all too well!

[camidon] Must make that connection between that battle and the end.!

[camidon] Reading in cars has never bothered me much, not on trains or things.

[anneliese] I had to give up, keep telling myself that it was ok to write drivel that might not match up, but could be fixed later.

[anneliese] I can read on trains and planes, but not cars.

[camidon] On another note, I was perusing the Wiki Site, (and gosh I'm such a fan of it, even if it's used sparingly at the moment) and I did some adds to the Write section, collaborative stories. I started a story called Fish Bigots (another NaNo procastination moment)

[anneliese] Of course, I think I might have lost a huge chunk somewhere At about 40K, I estimated that the story should be around 60K when complete.

[anneliese] Cool! I have a security patch to put in (shouldn't affect anything) and I'll look forward to seeing your entries...Still have to post the *openings* we did last month.

[camidon] You have the base, a collection of words some good, some the wrong side of awful, and that's what's important. Don't hesitate to send some to the group!

[camidon] Fish Bigots (sometimes my imagination is just so whacked) is under the MediumLengths, and I added to the Flying Story in the ShortLength section.

[anneliese] Oh, I need to send it to some guinea pigs. It's got a bunch o' problems and I need help, I think.

[camidon] Some of us are certainly avid guinea pigs.

[anneliese] Looking forward to checking out both entries. I've wanted to put another entry in EmptyKube's short, but it has me stumped.

[camidon] <sigh> Contemplating our NaNo achievement. Any NaNo regrets?

[anneliese] Not really. It was probably the best thing I could have done for myself...it has had major positive effects for me (sleep deprivation notwithstanding)

[camidon] Reading Mike's entry was next on my list. Perhaps tonight if my hero and villian don't want to battle in their shuffleboard game.

[anneliese] What about you?

[anneliese] Another great procrastination activity is to check Mike's blog from time to time.

[camidon] Yes, sleep deprivation notwithstanding. Who needs sleep. (I used it again!)

[anneliese] You're so talented with the smilies. I'm going to have to install more.

[camidon] No major ones. Nothing that I would change. Maybe if I do NaNo again, I'll try for a higher word count 75K, 90K and really push myself if I have the time (i.e., no full time job) Other then that, I wish I lived closer to some of the NaNo gigs. Living in the middle of nowhere has its downsides.

[anneliese] I have to admit...tons of NaNo gigs here...the group is planning to meet monthly now until next year...I had to stop looking at the forum and bypass the social events to write, though

[camidon] I'm planning to drive to 100 miles to Fort Collins, Co and hook up with their end of NaNo party this Friday. Some folks have even offered me their spare rooms. We writers are a strange breed, but it makes us more fun I think.

[anneliese] It should be fun, if you can do it. I think the CT wrapup party is Dec. 12. It's close by, though...Hartford.

[camidon] If you have the time, they (the one I went to) was much fun. If you ever have more time, it's always something to keep in the back of your mind! How's the LA-CONN rivavlry? Still in the lead?

[anneliese] As near as I can tell, CT blew LA out of the water. Final tallies will be posted tomorrow.

[camidon] I'll say this, the one write-in I went to was very motivational/inspirational. I didn't think it would be, but being around other people with the same crazy drive to write was so great.

[camidon] I'll have to check out the final tally.

[anneliese] Yes, I think it would be. I have always liked face-to-face writers groups...just couldn't find one that could understand me!

[camidon] Lol! Between the two of us, no wonder we've scared everyone away from this group!! <just kidding> It's coming around, I think, little by little.

[anneliese] I think it is beginning to come around. The problem I refer to is that people who have no interest in Speculative Fiction, really don't get it!

[anneliese] <I hope that we don't scare anyone too much>

[camidon] Yeah, that's very true. I recall many in person writing groups that just shook their head at me, but then there would be the people who really got it, and that made me press on. Ah, those early years.

[camidon] Imo, that's the same reason Dave K was trying to connect with other scifi writers in his area; he knows other writers, but the mindset is different.

[anneliese] Exactly. They'd ask the strangest questions. And criticize really poorly.

[anneliese] I almost think, as genre writers, a western writers group would have more common ground.

[anneliese] Even connecting with some SF writers doesn't work.

[anneliese] There has to be some sort of chemistry, I think.

[camidon] Yeah, that's not a half bad comparison. Scifi is mostly setting oriented and so is western.

[anneliese] (just looked at Fish Bigots--Great opening!)

[camidon] Here's an idea: what if we added a NaNo page to the SFWW website, something just saying what it is, and then adding a "winners" section (we can gloat a little, right?)

[anneliese] I think that is a great idea!

[camidon] You're right about the scifi impass too; even in the genre of spec fiction/scifi/fantasy/there is such a wide range of possbilites and choices and worlds. I suppose that's what brings us into the genre.

[camidon] Oh! Any word from Elizabeth about posting on the NaNowrimo forum about SFWW? Now's the time!

[anneliese] In some ways, the field has to get narrowed down...things like fantasy are beginning to have very different rules, e.g.

[anneliese] Nothing from Elizabeth.

[camidon] Fish Bigots. Makes me laugh every time I say that. I was up way too late that night. Fish bigots <laughing some more>

[anneliese] LOL It's too catchy!

[camidon] Hint, hint, nudge, nudge, Hey, cohost, what do you think about posting a short little post then about SFWW? Somewhere under the scifi/fantasy forum topic?

[camidon] <now I have to reread my own Fish Bigots intro>

[anneliese] If I can. I'll see what I can do tomorrow.

[camidon] BTW, I've really taken a liking to the little alien writer icon you found/created.

[anneliese] Good, because I like it too! It began as some stock clip art that I've tweaked, color-wise.

[camidon] I'd be happy to make a short, nonintrusive post, but I do agree with you and E, that type of stuff should come from an official identity (email, whatever)

[camidon] It's not that big of a deal, but it's just an opportunity I don't think we should let slip by.

[anneliese] Hey, if you want to post as me...

[camidon] Back to the earlier thoughts: That's what's so much fun about Spec Fic, fantasy, scif, you can make your own rules. Granted, publishers made not read it if it too unruly, but every once and a while really pushing the boundary stuff makes it into print.

[camidon] Post as you?

[anneliese] Exactly. It is the aspect of pushing boundaries that I like best.

[anneliese] Actually, if you have some notion of the best thread to post in, let me know. The SF/Fantasy area is pretty huge.

[camidon] I'll check it out tonight during some good procrastination time and email you. Couldn't we also start a new thread if nothing else?

[anneliese] There are established areas for identifying critique groups such as are...I got that far with it one upon a time.

[camidon] Pretty huge = lots of people = maybe a few interested people, maybe one really interested.

[anneliese] One would be good

[anneliese] Have you given more thought to GenE lately?

[camidon] Well, congratulations again. You've certainly earned it. Crack open a bottle of chardonnay or, mabye break open a new chocolate bar. NaNo succes. NaNo fun. NaNo on the brain. Way to go.

[anneliese] Hubby and I are going to celebrate. Mostly, he's celebrating not batching it anymore

[camidon] GenE? Thought? yes. Action on the Wikisite? no. I decide against diving it too much during Nano, and then since I was leaving, I figured I'd try to drum up some interest in Feb, when I came back full velocity.

[camidon] not batching? me confused.

[anneliese] That sounds good. If I get the current story off the brain, I might do some more with GenE as well. But it is going to be a while.

[anneliese] bacheloring, is what I should have said.

[camidon] I've had some GenE ideas, Dave too when we met in Oct. It's still alive, just has a slow pulse I think.

[anneliese] Or something like that...being on his own.

[camidon] Ah, much more sense. I can imagine; you having to look yourself away and all.

[anneliese] It needs to be nurtured for a while longer...and if it turns out to be a relatively small group of us doing it, that's fine.

[anneliese] Actually, I did the whole thing sitting on the sofa, in the family room, on the laptop.

[camidon] Yeah, that's definitely true. On a bright note, I saw Bob posted a few times in the GenE stuff, so that's cool.

[anneliese] I started cranking when I loaded cd's and put the headphones on.

[anneliese] I think the shared world idea is a great one, but we have to overcome some learning curves wrt collaboration and collaboration tools (i.e., wiki)

[camidon] "nurtured" is a good word for it. Ah yes, the self-imposed exile by earphones though sitting in plain sight methid, one of my favorites.

[anneliese] It seems to work best for me. Locking myself in the computer room (we have one of those also) doesn't seem to work as well.

[camidon] I'm going to sign of here; got some things I should do, as well as some writing.

[anneliese] Sounds like a plan. I'm glad you made it. It's always great chatting with you

[anneliese] I'm seriously contemplating that sleep thing...

[camidon] I did the same thing; worked in the heavily-traveled areas with headphones instead of my office.

[camidon] It's been fun as always, and if we could, I'd toast you across the virtually pathways for all the hard, hard writing that we've done.

[anneliese] It's amazing how a pair of headphones can block out everything.

[anneliese] Here's to you!

[camidon] Here goes :TOAST: crash, clatter, clang. Whoops.

[anneliese] LOL!

[anneliese] Seriously, you carried me for so much of this. I hugely appreciate it!

[camidon] Another one can't hurt: Congrats, Anneliese. Mucho respect.

[anneliese] Congrats to you, Chris, you deserve it.

[camidon] Your welcome, and the same goes for you, all those messages spurred me on.

[camidon] Now it is onto other things. I shall say gnight.

[anneliese] You know, we just might talk ourselves into doing this next year...what about a collaborative GenE NaNo!

[anneliese] ahh, yes, niters to you too!

[camidon] ahh, now there's a nifty idea. Perhaps next week we can chat about that! Bon Voyage until then

Chat log for November 22, 2004

Submitted by acmfox on Mon, 11/22/2004 - 11:10pm

[anneliese] Hi CM!

[camidon] Howdy, Anneliese

[anneliese] I haven't checked your profile yet today...over 50K?

[camidon] Not yet. I'm at 48500 right now. I won't sleep tonight until I get there!

[anneliese] Awesome! I'm rooting for you!

[camidon] It'll happen, or I'll fall asleep on my keyboard to night, a right a million ZZZ's Add in a few sapces, and I'll reach it that way!

[camidon] How's your writing coming/

[anneliese] LOL!

[camidon] (and write) that's suppose to say

[anneliese] I'm nearly to 29K. I will be by the time I go to bed, I hope.

[camidon] Whatever works!

[anneliese] Hi rcs!

[camidon] You can do it! I'm rooting even more for you!

[camidon] Hi rcs.

[rcs] hello

[anneliese] Thanks. Obviously, I need it!

[camidon] <playing with colors> let's try this

[anneliese] Maybe in December, I'll figure out how to get better colors...

[anneliese] how did you get that color?

[camidon] I like this green; much better

[camidon] Instead of the color palette like last time, this time I had a drop down menu with choices

[anneliese] Yea, nice green

[camidon] Weird, figured you had played with it.

[anneliese] I had that drop down the first time I checked out the room...now it is that silly bar.

[anneliese] Very wierd.

[camidon] Double weird

[camidon] I take it Bob's not one for a chat about his story? Do we have any other topics, other than cheering each other on for Nano!

[anneliese] I think Bob has a conflict.

[anneliese] Unless he shows!

[anneliese] What would you all like to chat about tonight?

[camidon] I have to say, I'm rather amazed by this smiley. Some programmers just have too much time on their hands.

[anneliese] I agree.

[camidon] How are you this evening, rcs?

[anneliese] Wait until eddy gets into this one...he'll be installing all kinds of smileys.

[camidon] Any comments about the, um, slow SFWW group, these first few weeks?

[rcs] i'm good

[anneliese] <font color=#800> testing </font>

[anneliese] Nope. That doesn't work.

[camidon] So what's happening with your plot and characters, Anneliese? Are you forcing them into action, or are they forcing you into action?

[anneliese] Hard to say. A little of neither, sometimes. I'm afraid. But, strangely, things are happening.

[camidon] rcs, Have you managed to check out the sffbboard < http://www.acmfox.com/sfwwforum/&gt;?

[anneliese] The story is one I've messed with a lot of times over the years...analogus to what Elizabeth has been doing with Marjan.

[camidon] Hey whether strangely, things are happening, or whether strange things are happening, that ain't too bad

[rcs] haven't yet, but i will

[anneliese] Just wish they would happen faster. It's a struggle to get every word!

[anneliese] You registered for the board, didn't you?

[anneliese] My word count stands at 28,993

[rcs] i think so.

[camidon] rcs, the wiki site is a little harder to digest on first take < http://www.sfwritersworkshop.org/twiki2/&gt; but there are some interesting things there too, if you're ever super board some evening. It's a work in progress.

[anneliese] Yes, and I even fixed the links on the site, so you should end up at the *right* wiki

[camidon] Ah, the struggle, Anneliese, makes the victory all the more sweet. <wink, wink, nudge, nudge,> don't you think you can make 30,000 tonight? It's only 10pm for you. <wink, wink>

[anneliese] I will. And probably a few more. Hey, I haven't slept in 4 days...what's one more?

[camidon] Like I keep saying, Anneliese, I'm just so super impressed you've managed to make it this far with all your obligations. You do realize you'll have to send some of what you're working on to the group, if it doesn't pick up eventually.

[anneliese] Yes, I have thought about that. I'm kind of nervous about it, though.

[camidon] Yeah, there's the sleep thing. I just wouldn't do it, except for the fact that I LIKE sleeping. So many hours wasted in dream land.

[anneliese] in addition to being (probably) unnecessarily complex, it turns out to be more of a modern fairy tale than SF.

[camidon] Nervous? You? Come on, there's mostly the old hacks like me, Greg, and Mike still around. We're gentle, mostly, in a chew at your jugular kind of way!

[anneliese] LOL

[anneliese] Oh, I'm not worried about that...

[camidon] fairy tale works for me. I think Dave K's the only real Hard SciFi guy around anymore. Those are the kind he doesn't like, but if I can submit 40,000 words of young adult fantasy strange weird fiction, yours should be a piece of cake!

[anneliese] I do need someone to read it eventually, to tell me where I've gone over the top in threaded stories.

[camidon] um, then what, if I may ask, are you nervous about?

[anneliese] And also where I need to throw in a smidge of description.

[anneliese] That it makes those hoover sounds???

[camidon] You know, now that I think about it, I think the one time you tossed a story into the queue in the last five years, was when I was AOL for a few months. I'll I remember is "Frumpy Middle Aged Women" Was that the title?

[anneliese] That was one of them.

[anneliese] I think there was one before that.

[anneliese] Should I take it as flattering that you remember the title?

[eddy] bonsoir

[anneliese] Hi eddy!

[camidon] Oh dear, those nasty hoover sounds. It doesn't help that my computer is next to the vaccuum. No, no, no, we wont have any of those negative thoughts. Let's just do this to those negative thoughts right now: (haha I used it in context!)

[camidon] Hey, Eddy!

[anneliese] lol

[camidon] Probably. I'd love to read it, if you still have it around. I'm sure I missed out!

[camidon] Probably flattering I mean.

[camidon] Eddy, there's no real topic. Anneliese and I are just boosting each others self-esteem. Want to help?

[eddy] no Bob to roast?

[anneliese] When you get done pushing me for NaNo, you can push me to send "Frumpy" out.

[anneliese] No, Bob has a conflict I think. And Dave has Monday night meetings for a while.

[camidon] Sure thing, but knowing my luck, you'd send it out during one of the weeks I'll be AWOL in Mexico, and I'll miss again. I think you plan it like that!

[camidon] rcs, what kinds of things are you working on? What interests you, scifi, fantasy, horror?

[anneliese] LOL, CM, You've figured me out! I probably have it on this computer, if you really want to see it.

[camidon] <Just kidding, of course, Anneliese! >

[rcs] mostly scifi, although i have written some fantasy.

[camidon] Well, Anneliese, since the group is so slow, I'm trying to find new ways to procrastinate and I figure one of your stories would take me DAYS to finish

[eddy] Anneliese is Great, Chris is Great too! =D

[anneliese] LOL Days? Maybe hourse.

[camidon] Yeah, eddy, I was looking forward to chatting with Bob too, though I didn't expect him to show as don't think he ever has to a chat. Neat idea, his story.

[eddy] boost, boost, boost

[anneliese] I mean hours.

[eddy] anyone have experience with queries?

[anneliese] eddy is Great!

[camidon] Hey, thanks, Eddy! Keep it coming.

[anneliese] Fiction or non fiction?

[camidon] rcs, Any particular scifi? Space Opera, Cyberpunk, Military, Alien contact? Or just what evers in your head?

[anneliese] Ross, you're just going to have to jump in and push us out of your way in here.

[camidon] Not successfully, Eddy. What do you want to query about?

[rcs] i guess space opera. I haven't really thought of it in those terms though.

[eddy] fiction queries... I got the books Getting Your Novel Published & Agents, Editors and You

[anneliese] I'm a space opera addict.

[eddy] they have good examples

[eddy] maybe I could send my query to the group?

[anneliese] Why not?

[camidon] Post some on the bboard, if you think that's okay, Eddy.

[anneliese] We can pretend to be editors.

[eddy] (btw a great song just came on -- So Cold by Breaking Benjamin)

[eddy] I could do that

[rcs] that should be fun.

[eddy] or send it out as a story for crits

[camidon] or the group, that would be cool.

[anneliese] radio?

[eddy] MP3 mix...

[camidon] With the lack of stories in the queue, the might be the way to go, eddy

[eddy] I usually listen to raucous rock while I write

[anneliese] I just shoved a bunch of cd's on the computer over the weekend so I could have the headphones to drown out the tv.

[eddy] I also got things like LOTR soundtrack and some great guitar instrumental (rock, flamenco) but hard rock gets me going

[camidon] Have you had time to read those books yet? Are they any good, eddy?

[anneliese] That sounds like my kind of music

[camidon] It seemed like it worked, Anneliese, you piled out the words last weekend.

[anneliese] raucous rock, that is...call me a metal head.

[anneliese] from 9am to 2 am, CM. I'm toast now.

[camidon] Classical music all the way. Large orchestral symphonies. And things like the LOTR soudtrack as well. Just listened to that today actually.

[eddy] Agents, Editors and You is really good, it's a great inside view of the publishing world, unfortunately that is its focus and so it's lacking in the writers side of things, e.g. queries and synopses (although it does cover them well enough)

[anneliese] Currently listening to "Black Gold" by Soul Asylum on indefinite repeat.

[anneliese] My play list is pretty sick.

[eddy] The Marshall Plan for Getting Your Novel Published covers synopses and queries very well, although you have to ignore the self promotion throughout (references to his other book and his agency)

[camidon] Well, as long as you're not burnt completely, Anneliese. Eight more days until this crazy challenge is over

[anneliese] Sweating bullets to get done in time.

[anneliese] I'll get it done.

[camidon] I've always had a problem with buying writing hand books. I don't like the idea of paying other people to tell me how to write. These guys make money by WRITING about how to WRITE. Seems too paradoxical.

[eddy] the two books together have given me a lot of terrific info, now I'm not so scared of writing a query and synopsis and canvassing agents

[anneliese] Sounds like they were worth it then, eddy.

[eddy] well, these books were written by agents and editors, so you can look at it as a way of them building up their own business by encouraging writers

[camidon] I have faith in you, Anneliese. I'll pull you across the finishlin if I have to bombard you with messages on the hour every hour for the next week.

[anneliese] I wouldn't be able to do it without you, CM.

[camidon] Well, that's good, eddy. As long as they are usfeful. If they have useful tips post them on the bboard (that way they're free!) I'm so cheap...

[eddy] it's encouraging... they talk about how the writers are the most important link in the chain, they work for the writers, they love to discover new writers, build careers, etc.

[eddy] I'll try

[eddy] I got them along with 2 other books through the Writers' Digest Book Club -- 4 books for $20

[camidon] And you make it so much more fun for me. Have you made it to any in person NaNo writing events, Anneliese?

[eddy] then you get nagged for 6 months to buy more, but you don't have to

[eddy] supposedly

[anneliese] Nope. And there was one real close to me Saturday morning. I did attend one online chat, but all they talked about was RPG

[camidon] I drove a 100 miles at met with 5 people in Fort Collins. Very fun and insirational group. Made me feel good for days, I plan to go to a wrap party with even more FOrt Collins folks sometime those first few days of Dec.

[camidon] That's not a bad deal, eddy, as long as you can tune out the nagging.

[anneliese] If I can get less behind, I will try to get to one...they have about 3 or 4 each week. And nothing in CT is much more than an hour away.

[anneliese] CT is beating LA in the word count challenge, though.

[camidon] The people on the Fort Collins bboard have all been very active, about 10 people total, and it motivates me to write more and better. It does depend on those involved those.

[camidon] I was just going to ask you about that!

[anneliese] I'm psychic.

[camidon] Don't let those bayou boys beat you. You're certainly doing your part!

[anneliese] LOL Is your group in a challenge?

[camidon] No, but I think they'd go for that idea. If I do NaNo next year, wherever I am, I might sugest it.

[camidon] Do you know how that challenge got started?

[anneliese] It's kind of fun. I don't know how it got set up.

[anneliese] All I know is that the groups started out with roughly the same number of NaNo participants.

[rcs] gotta go.

[anneliese] Glad you could make it.

[anneliese] bye?

[eddy] guess he had to go

[anneliese] So, eddy, any writing projects?

[camidon] I think he's shy.

[anneliese] It's hard when you join a well-established group.

[anneliese] Have to lurk for a while to get your bearings.

[camidon] But hey, we had a new member do a critique! Hallelujah

[anneliese] Yea, YAY!

[camidon] yeah, it took me FIVE years to fit in, and that's only because 9/10 of the group left!

[anneliese] LOL You always fit in!

[eddy] I'm still working on my sequel to Bob, although that's on hold while I start running on the agent treadmill

[camidon] no, not really, but I was shy at first too. I think you're right, Anneliese.

[anneliese] We only saw one chapter of Bob...right?

[eddy] my goal for this year was to write a first draft of a novel... I did that, revised it twice, and so far I have 50k words on a sequel...

[eddy] yeah

[anneliese] Wow, eddy. That's terrific.

[eddy] I also have a couple maps and a couple dozen pages of character sketches and such

[camidon] You've written more of Bob?? Send some of it out! It's about time the group started reading some good writing and not the shlock I send out! (oh, there I go again, being negative)

[eddy] I find world building boring though

[camidon] Congrats, Eddy. That's awesome. How long is the novel?

[eddy] you have great ideas, Chris, and no end to them -- they just need polishing

[camidon] Can Anneliese ues a few of those 50,000 words if she needs a few extra come Nov 30?

[eddy] the novel is about 100k words according to Word, it's 170 single spaced pages

[anneliese] I have to admit, if I didn't have my notes, maps, drawings, and character database, I'd be lost with this story. But, generally, I hate working that hard at world building.

[eddy] my Dad and my sister both loved it

[eddy] yeah I make a list and quick sketch of every character I introduce

[camidon] Way to go. It's so cool to hear about others finishing long projects. Bruce was good that way. Makes you feel better about your own long projects.

[anneliese] I have given up on sharing work with relatives...actually, they won't let me.

[eddy] after a while, that amounts to a lot of pages... I also like doing author to character interviews with the major characters, to find their "voice"

[eddy] I like to make a unique voice for every character

[camidon] I admit I love world building. Creating whole realms that never before existed. I'm a map junky. I stare at them for hours and hours and hours. If there's an atlas in a car, I'm good for the rest of a trip.

[anneliese] Wish I could make myself do that...guess I'm just to lazy.

[anneliese] Oh, I love maps, too!

[eddy] I used to be a D&D nut, and I loved world building, but I lost interest for some reason, now I just want to write

[camidon] That's a good way to do it, eddy. Voice and character is, in my mind, the most important thing.

[eddy] character interviews are a great way to get to know your character, and they make a great reference if you find your characters are sounding the same

[anneliese] I used to love doing D&D worlds...couldn't get players, though.

[camidon] When I was in my teens I was a huge fantasy junky with all the maps and drawings. Then I realized how awful most of it is, with notable exceptions Tolkien being the father of it all.

[eddy] "fiction is real life amplified"

[anneliese] My hubby reads a lot of fantasy...most of it is to derivative (of Tolkein) for me.

[camidon] D&D nut? You two huh. Haven't played in years. Got into a scifi rpg called Battlelords. Did some writing for them, but nothing has come of it, yet.

[anneliese] Haven't done any D&D in many, many years.

[eddy] well, people insist on comparing all fantasy to Tolkien, but hell he basically created the genre, outside of unique stories like Beowulf

[anneliese] I've heard of Battlelords, but given up on games mostly.

[camidon] An 800 word book is not good reading just because ou get 800 words for 7, 8 bucks. Most of it could be chopped into a decent 300 page read. All fluff and crap.

[eddy] why not compare all sf to Bradbury? or Asimov?

[anneliese] True, eddy. But fantasy has always existed.

[anneliese] For a while, a lot of sf was very derivative of Bradbury and Asimov.

[anneliese] And that generation.

[camidon] yep, that's the truth about Tolkien. He is the High Fantasy creator.

[eddy] fantasy has really branched out, there is epic or short and sweet, humorous or serious, magic or no magic, armies or no armies, weird races or no weird races, etc.

[camidon] I suppose you copy from the best. Some write the same old drivel, some find something new and breakout.

[eddy] something like Timeline was really more fantasy than sf, since it was mostly set in medieval times

[anneliese] I think the best fantasy I enjoyed (relatively) recently was by Mary Gentle. Rats & Gargoyles.

[eddy] Conan!!!

[eddy] pure escape fiction!!!

[anneliese] Right!

[eddy] I ate those up as a kid... sure they were mostly the same, like Hardy Boys, but hell they were enjoyable

[camidon] And there is a big difference between fantasy and high fantasy. Elves, dwarves, medieval weaponary in High Fantasy, whch is what most of the fantasy market is these days. That excludes everything else, that is bascially not real, ghosts, mermaids, twilight zone stories.

[eddy] Conan is one enduring character

[anneliese] I read space opera...addicted to Andre Norton.

[camidon] I've only been reading children's fantasy as 1) I'm writing in the genre, 2) it's the most open to creativity--Harry Potter, Phillip Pullman, and dozens of others in recent years. Very little of it this High fantasy stuff.

[camidon] Never read any Norton. If was to pick up one book by him, what would you suggest?

[eddy] have you gotten the Star Wars DVD set yet? my favorite is the "making of" DVD, where we find out how close Star Wars came to not happening at all, and how much Lucas smashed the current genre of movies to make a truly enjoyable space opera and make history

[anneliese] I've considered writing YA fantasy...it's where you can have real fun, I think.

[eddy] YA?

[eddy] oh nm

[anneliese] Hard to suggest. She's been writing since the fifties. Her claim to fame is probably the Witch World (fantasy), but I love the old campy stuff fromthe '50s

[camidon] It's worth a shot. I've written 200,000 words in my 4-book Elevator series. It's so much fun just to let your imagination go. In the world I created, I could do that.

[anneliese] Except that it probably wasn't campy then. The first novel I read was the Beast Master, and I was hopelessly hooked.

[eddy] Lucas studied classics to make classic heros -- the young and eager kid, the old mentor, the cocky sidekick, the comic relief (droids) and made a simple story that was supposed to flop, but became a big (!) success

[camidon] YA = Young Adult

[camidon] oh. nm

[camidon] need to read everything before I respond! lol!

[anneliese] The story I am writing now, probably started out in life as a YA story, but it is definately much darker now and more adult.

[camidon] He did a number with those original movies. Too bad the new ones are awful imo.

[eddy] well the lines are blurring, kids are reading older now

[eddy] no more Pollyanna!

[anneliese] True...my MC's were never Pollyana though!

[eddy] I think the real distinction is, kids want to read about kids about their own age, so if you have a story with kids and it's not too dark, it could be YA

[anneliese] Good kids up to bad things.

[camidon] To true. I found out from my SCBWI group that one of the books up for the Book Award of the Year, or whatever it is, is a YA book called Luna, which is about a boy who wants to be a girl.

[camidon] oh SCBWI = Society of Childrens Book Writers and Illustrators (what an awful acronym)

[eddy] I can't think of any story I read as a kid that wasn't starring kids, except Hardy Boys and they were at least perpetually young adults

[anneliese] My MC is just out of college, this time around, so a bit old for YA

[eddy] until I got into Stephen King that is, around age 10

[eddy] my first book was The Stand, and I was hooked.. then my writing style for the next 15 years looked suspiciously like his

[camidon] All righty. I've spent another wonderful hour chatting, but I've have 1500 more words calling my name tonight. I should jaunt.

[eddy] still does, actually

[eddy] yep, me 2

[camidon] 50,000 here I come!

[anneliese] Same here...but I'll be happy with 500 words more for tonight.

[anneliese] Should I post this chat, or not bother.

[eddy] yeah

[eddy] shows we had one!

[anneliese] Will do, then.

[camidon] Much fun everyone. Have a good week. Keep going, Anneliese!

[eddy]

[eddy] nite all

[camidon] gnight

[anneliese] As always, wonderful chatting with you guys.

[anneliese] Niters.

Chat log for November 15, 2004

Submitted by acmfox on Mon, 11/15/2004 - 11:07pm

[camidon] Interesting
[Elizabeth] hi there!
[camidon] howdy!
[Elizabeth] brb
[anneliese] Hi, sorry, I've been hiding!
[anneliese] Time got away from me as I was goofing off.
[camidon] Lol. Didn't know you could do that.
[camidon] hiding online, not goofing off
[anneliese] Don't tell anyone!
[camidon] What's the occasion for a the new chat site?
[anneliese] I'm trying to move everything over to the new hosting company.
[anneliese] This is the chat software that they provide.
[camidon] I see. The scrolling is all weird. I'm so accustomed to the opposite.
[anneliese] Theoretically, you can reverse it, but it didn't work for me.
[camidon] But at least there are smileys!
[camidon] eww, theory never been good with that, so I don't think I'll mess with it. Change is good, right?
[camidon] let's try a new color
[camidon] ugh, no, how about this
[camidon] ah, not that either. This one?
[anneliese] Our newest member is in the other chat room...can't believe I have both running at the same time!...I'm trying to get him over here.
[camidon] Maybe this; awesome. do your best
[anneliese] That color bar is fun, huh?
[anneliese] Hi rcs! you made it!
[camidon] All the colors are weak. I miss my dark green
[rcs] hello
[camidon] Yes, hi rcs
[anneliese] Earlier today, I had a drop down menu with color names...wonder what happened to it.
[anneliese] How many lines of text do you all see on the screen?
[camidon] How's it going, rcs? Is it Ross?
[camidon] 20, I think
[rcs] I'm fine. rcs or Ross is okay.
[anneliese] You can change that. I set mine to 5000.
[camidon] How do i go about that? I didn't pay too much attention to the intial screen, I just log in and it popped me here. I assume theres a place to alter "my settings?"
[anneliese] Clicking the question mark gives you a popup with the command summary.
[camidon] You mean I have to read that!
[anneliese] the command is /show 5000 (or what ever number you like)
[anneliese] Naw, CM, you don't have to read anything!
[anneliese] I had a pretty dark red color earlier...wonder what happened to it.
[camidon] Yah, why would I read anything? This is a writing group!
[anneliese] lol
[camidon] It's good thing you sent out that reminder, or I think even I would have forgotten. I had no idea my story was in the queue for this week. NaNo's fully occupied my time
[anneliese] Has anyone checked out the new online calendar: http://www.sfwritersworkshop.org/calendar
[camidon] I will now
[anneliese] I'm not sure that I ever announced it to the group yet.
[Elizabeth] Feh. Sorry about that. Parents are coming into town tomorrow and called me w/details.
[camidon] Too bad about DaveK had to bag the next few chats.
[anneliese] Glad you're back
[anneliese] Yep, and Mike is too busy now also.
[Elizabeth] Same here. :-)
[camidon] The calendar's a good idea, as long as it's updated!
[Elizabeth] Welcome, Ross!
[anneliese] I thought that it would be easier to update it, than to keep the website up-to-date.
[rcs] thanks. Good to be here.
[camidon] probably true, Anneliese
[anneliese] Also, I can create member accounts if you want to use the calendar.
[anneliese] Did you want to talk about your story, CM?
[Elizabeth] I like the calendar...any way we can put critique due dates in as well? That would help the more absent-minded among us. :
[anneliese] We can put anything you like in the calendar...If we register everyone, we can even use it to send email reminders.
[Elizabeth] I can send the reminders, as long as there's a place for me to look up the names.
[camidon] sure, always willing to here feedback about my stories
[anneliese] As soon as I get assign the date, I'm putting the name in the calendar.
[anneliese] I add the story title when you send out the sub.
[Elizabeth] Very well done. For a claustrophobe like myself, a cave story is especially creepy.
[camidon] the good, bad, and most fun of all, really ugly
[Elizabeth] The hook--the cavers trying, unsuccessfully, to locate the lost and panicky teenagers--should come sooner in the story, though.
[anneliese] I thought it was a lot of fun...liked that the teamsters were gaining some power again.
[camidon] Yes, Greg mentioned that, and I completely agree.
[Elizabeth] That scene, and the guy's realization that they aren't <B>anywhere<B> in the cave that he knows of was very effective. And spooky.
[anneliese] Oops, I'm confused.
[Elizabeth] Whoops, fat-fingered the code again.
[camidon] Teamsters? Hmm cavers unionizing, that must be Bob!
[anneliese] Yep. Read both this afternoon and forgot which was which, I think!
[Elizabeth] Trapped unionizing cavers...could be an interesting mix.
[camidon] Nothing like last minute cramming, Anneliese!
[anneliese] lol
[anneliese] When I was supposed to be at a client's, no less!
[Elizabeth] "What do you mean, management suggested this location? You NEVER let management set the location!"
[anneliese] Left the copy on the printer
[Elizabeth] I also liked Gary's concern that he's seeing and hearing things after spending such a long time in the caves, and the weird stuff that happens to his caving buddies. Creepy and good.
[camidon] E, that's good to know some of it is effective, and spooky. Thats what I was going for, but not having written anything like this, I just gave it a try.
[Elizabeth] It could be a sensory deprivation chamber, in a way--dark, isolated, very little noise. And after a while that dripping water would drive me nuts.
[Elizabeth] And the descriptions of some of the spaces the cavers have to wriggle through gave me the willies. Then again, I'm a huge claustrophobe.
[camidon] You mean Jerry? No Gary's in the story, at least no that I remember...
[Elizabeth] Whoops, Jerry.
[camidon] That's a good way to look at it, a "sensory deprivation" chamber. I like that.
[Elizabeth] Hey, I was only off by one phoneme!
[Elizabeth] Made me think of Altered States, the chamber the protagonist goes into on his mental journeys...and the way he completely cracks up in the end.
[camidon] I was hoping for the willies. Any time I read anything about a cave, it's all walking. I wanted this down and dirty and squirming, as serious caving really is.
[eddy] howdee
[camidon] I've been so engrossed in NaNo, that I didn't remember if there was a Gary or not. I had to scroll through my doc real fast to check!
[Elizabeth] hi Eddy!
[anneliese] Hi eddy
[camidon] Hey Eddy
[Elizabeth] I think you did a great job of showing what a gung-ho caver does, and what sort of stuff they encounter.
[eddy] just finished my crit Chris... sent via email
[anneliese] Eddy, use /show 5000 to show all the lines you want.
[camidon] "Altered States" Is that something I should check out? Not familiar with it
[eddy] ah
[eddy] Altered States = bleah
[eddy] lol
[eddy] never figured out what the fuss was about
[eddy] kinda boring
[camidon] Thanks eddy.
[Elizabeth] Very unsettling movie with William Hurt. Some over-the-top moments, but a great premise.
[Elizabeth] brb
[eddy] read the book?
[anneliese] * anneliese never saw the movie
[camidon] Have to add it to my Netflicks list.
[eddy] too drawn out with long periods of little happening
[camidon] and apparently, my book list too.
[eddy] read Life of Pi!
[eddy] great book
[camidon] So your bboard review says, eddy
[camidon] Thanks for the crit, Eddy. I was wondering when someone would ask Why the other cavers didn't have a cave name.
[eddy] I liked the idea of a nickname, it shows familiarity between chars
[eddy] for me, just setting the story in a cave was scary
[eddy] !
[camidon] Don't really have an answer for you. Some use them, others don't. Guess it has to do with the caver.
[eddy] well you implied that everyone did, but only one in your story did
[eddy] I suggest calling it just a nickname
[eddy] otherwise you have to explain
[camidon] Then that should probably be clarified
[camidon] makes sense.
[eddy] if all cavers have nicknames, that may be a detail you want to show the reader, but that would be really hard to do with that many characters... there is only so much you can do in one story
[camidon] I like your shadow idea. That's probably more in tune with the setting. Something that's harder to see is that much more nerve-racking
[eddy] when I think of lights, I think of Cocoon
[eddy] or Close Encounter, or ET
[camidon] Not seen Cocoon, though it's also on my netflicks list
[eddy] wouldn't consider it high priority... I thought it had a weak ending
[eddy] a must see movie is the Incredibles
[camidon] I think i chose the lights initially because to see a light in the cave, that's not from your group, is down right unsettling, but like I said, I think I'll try your shadow idea and see how it plays.
[eddy] that and Shrek 2, excellent examples of how to make quirky characters work
[camidon] What, Cocoon, or my story!
[eddy] well I can see the lights being unsettling, maybe they could be faint lights and the critters themselves are seen as shadows
[camidon] Are you "hiding" again Anneliese?
[eddy] hehe... Cocoon
[Elizabeth] bak
[anneliese] Yup. Sorry ducked out to check something else.
[camidon] I'd vote for Mosters Inc, imo.
[anneliese] I keep testing the logging feature. so far so good!
[Elizabeth] That's okay, I keep bugging out with job/parental visit stuff.
[eddy] I went cave diving a couple of times, then I watched a show with some nut who squeezed into a space so tight that he had to remove his tanks to wriggle through
[camidon] Anneliese, I like thought of your virtually self, running between the letters, duking down, peeking around an A.
[Elizabeth] I didn't have a problem with all the nicknames...under those circumstances I think I'd want to have short and easy-to-remember tags for each of my buddies.
[eddy] imagine getting stuck underwater with 10 min of air in your tank!
[Elizabeth] Because if something happened down there, I'd be too freaked out to remember much.
[anneliese] LOL, CM!
[Elizabeth] <== laughing w/CM and Anneliese
[eddy] my point with nicknames is, if everyone has a name and a nickname and you have 10 characters floating around, how would you handle that?
[camidon] Any specific comments about the ending? Eddy, your crit suggest more. <side note, that's why cave diving is statistcally the most dangerous thing you can do on the planet, or in the planet>
[camidon] suggests you desired more, is what I meant.
[Elizabeth] I almost wanted less from the ending. You have this great creepy scene where Jerry sees all of those obviously-dead people--Confederate Army, cavers who disappeared years before--and then he comes out of what he thinks was a temporary blackout to be told that he's been in a coma.
[eddy] that's what I didn't like... it felt like the "it was all just a dream, haha!" ending
[camidon] Yeah, handling all the characters was a real challenge. That's why the story wound up so long, perhaps will be even longer.
[Elizabeth] After that, I wasn't sure I wanted a long explanation of what he thought happened...the final line about part of him being lost, forever, in that cave was so spooky and so perfect.
[eddy] I don't think that's what you had in mind tho
[Elizabeth] What if he never figures out what really happened, and that's the price he pays? The rest of his life he has to wonder what happened, and if he's gone insane.
[camidon] Hmmm. Coma was not my intention. I think I said No Lite was in a coma.
[eddy] for me, I would take it in another direction... the idea of him going down and finding ghosts was too cliche'd
[eddy] he could find another mystery down there
[Elizabeth] CM, my understanding was that somehow time had warped around this guy...he thought all of this stuff was recent, but it had happened months ago...did he lose part of his memory? Did something get permanently damaged as a result of his experience
[eddy] I liked the bit where the wrapper moved around
[camidon] I do agree, eddy, about the cliche aspect, but that's what came out. Any ideas what that different direction might be?
[Elizabeth] It seemed to be more psychological than physical horror to me.
[eddy] one part of the cave where time shifts around
[Elizabeth] All sorts of weird stuff could happen to your head in that kind of prolonged crisis situation.
[camidon] I think I spent as much time on that final line as I did on the rest of the story. I just kept going back to it, so I'm glad someone liked it!
[Elizabeth] (Did I ever tell you about the college acquaintance who spent a weekend in the Santa Cruz Mountains with a friend, a bag of chips, and a bag of shrooms, and got the bags mixed up?)
[camidon] Yes, pyschological was the aim
[eddy] I would leave out the zombies and make it a weird place that messes with your head, or maybe one nasty thing... something a little more different
[rcs] The sequence with the ghosts actually seemed like it was out of Lord of the Rings, when they call the Army of the Dead. I don't know if that was your intention, but that was the feel, I got.
[Elizabeth] What might be even creepier is if he doesn't so much see them as hear and feel them (a chill in the air, or sudden movement), and see shadows, vague forms that may or may not be real...
[camidon] Definitely wasn't thinking lord of the rings, though I can see that. I don't think I want that correllary
[eddy] or in keeping with the time shift idea, instead of finding zombies he could come out ten years later
[eddy] or maybe as a different person
[camidon] So, if I make what happens in the cave, at the end, even more vague, you think it would fly? No ghosts, no physical desription of civil war soldiers, etc. Maybe hints, a gunshot sound here, shadows, things like that?
[eddy] dunno... think of something unusual and unsettling
[Elizabeth] Perhaps you need to cut some of the characters. Keep the female friend, the really good caving buddies like No Lite, and nobody else?
[eddy] no, you need to be more direct... but it should start vague
[eddy] I agree... too many characters
[Elizabeth] The reader could probably infer era from their conversation, or details like light flashing off what looks like a bayonet.
[camidon] Maybe that's a thought, dumping a few characters.
[eddy] keep it to Frodo and Merry and Pippin and Gandalf... oh wait
[Elizabeth] The Civil War ghosts would sound a lot different from the caver(s), or the contemporary teenagers.
[camidon] More direct?
[eddy] what I mean is... start with subtle hints of weirdness like you did with the powerbar wrapper, and the tie in with the flashback (I liked that a lot)
[camidon] Ross, what that "Army of the Darkness" feeling good or bad? Draw you out of the story, into the story?
[eddy] then when he gets closer to the mystery, then tell us what it is
[eddy] or at least give strong hints... me, I hate enigmatic endings, they make me feel like I read the story for nothing if I have to make up my own ending
[camidon] Okay, got it Eddy. You're off the mindset of full explanation. There are definitely too different sides to the issue, and it's so hard to choose which side.
[rcs] It seemed a little confusing, but thinking for a moment helped to understand it.
[Elizabeth] The powerbar wrapper was a nice touch, BTW.
[eddy] I like an explanation at the end, but guessing up to that point
[eddy] I just read Bob's crit... I disagree, I think the beginning was terrific, I agree with his title recommendation though
[Elizabeth] It was clear to me, at the end, that Jerry's version of events and everybody else's version of events were wildly different, and Jerry is going to have to spend the rest of his life reconciling that. And failing. That what you intended?
[camidon] Thanks, I liked that wrapper idea too.
[camidon] Yes, E, that was one basic element; the other was that the cave "stole" people every 60 years or so, and somehow hid the evidence/truth from the surface. There were always explanations for the disappearance, but thos always changed.
[camidon] I agree with the title suggestion too; I was not happy with the title with which I sent out the story.
[eddy] I didn't get that, Chris
[Elizabeth] Hmmm. "Stole" as in made them disappear completely? That would be a great campfire story, but I would expect more people on the surface to get involved, and in this lawsuit-ridden era, to get the cave closed.
[eddy] maybe instead of meeting the zombies, he should be threatened by them and then meet the "real" evil in the cave -- whatever is stealing people
[camidon] Mainly, I wanted the story to be strange, eerie, and pull you to the end.
[anneliese] I have to go, guys. Feel free to chat on, though!
[eddy] for a while I thought the cave was replacing people, kind of a doppelganger thing
[camidon] I would say, imo, the real evil WAS the cave. In a sense it was "alive'
[Elizabeth] I like the more subtle "stealing" you describe in the story...No Lite's inexplicable coma, the huge gaps between Jerry's experience and "the official story"...the idea that the cave takes something precious and irretrievable from you, and you don't even know what it is until it's gone, is wonderful
[camidon] Night, Anneliese. Good luck with the next week of NaNo
[Elizabeth] 'night, Anneliese!
[eddy] I have to go too... good story Chris
[eddy] l8r all
[Elizabeth] And the idea that an experienced caver can spelunk in this cave for years, enjoy it, and then get slammed with this "theft" is creepier still.
[camidon] That's good, I think, Elizabeth, you hit on the head what I was TRYING to do.
[Elizabeth] 'night Eddy! Thanks for coming!
[camidon] gnight Eddy
[Elizabeth] Perhaps what Jerry finds in the cave is that part of the other people that the cave has "stolen" from.
[Elizabeth] A caver's confidence. A soldier's courage. A teenager's loyalty to his or her friends.
[camidon] Oh, I like that idea. I think these ideas are all rambling around in my brain. Any suggestions how to make that come across?
[Elizabeth] A bit of their intelligence, their humor, their talent, whatever that talent may be.
[Elizabeth] Well, the cave has literally stolen away No Lite's mind. And Jerry's memory.
[Elizabeth] Perhaps one of the teenagers DID get out of the cave, but ran off...without telling anybody that he had friends still in there.
[camidon] The way you summed it up is perfect, the taking something irretreivable from you.
[Elizabeth] Or somebody comes out of the cave (in the story, or one of the "campfire stories" Jerry knows of) losing their will to live, and dying/committing suicide shortly after their cave visit.
[Elizabeth] Perhaps the soldiers who came out of the cave turned tail and fled after their next battle, or committed some atrocity.
[camidon] To make that the definite central theme, how concrete do I need ot be with the climax against the cave, what Jerry, Don, No Lite n and Rich experience? OR how vague? Either way, I think some will like a concrete explanation, others a vague 'somethings been taken away"
[Elizabeth] All sorts of things could be "lost" in this place, and never seen or sensed until the cave finds its next victim.
[Elizabeth] Hope this helps, CM. I probably need to sign off soon. Got stuff to fill out for kiddo's teacher.
[camidon] btw, if you need to skeedaddle too, don't let my inquiring mind keep you!
[Elizabeth] And I need to finish cleaning up before the parents arrive. They'd probably like to have a place to sleep.
[Elizabeth] I really liked the story, CM, good luck with it!
[camidon] sounds goods I appreciate all the feedback from tonight.
[Elizabeth] It was good talking to you, and good night.
[camidon] Thanks, gnight, Elizabeth!

Chat log for November 1, 2004

Submitted by acmfox on Mon, 11/01/2004 - 11:11pm

anneliese: Hi CM!
anneliese: I'm up to 735 words!
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Dave!
camidon: Hi Anneliese
davek: Hi guys
camidon: Good start!
anneliese: Have you started yet?
camidon: If the first million's the toughest, than the first thousand is even tougher!
anneliese: lol
camidon: Yep, I'm a little further along. My last word count was 2222. \
camidon: How's it going, Dave?
anneliese: Yea! That's fantastic!
anneliese: brb
davek: Same old same old.
camidon: Any good writing?
anneliese: (back)
davek: I'm working with this startup so that's taking a lot of time.
camidon: As long as your having fun, and it never hurts to make a little money, right?
anneliese: I hope it's worth it.
davek: I try to wirte in my journal everyday so I'm at least keeping a bit in the game.
davek: Thanks for the pointer to the nanowrimo group. I'll have to sign up and see who is local to me.
camidon: What's your 735 words (so far) about, Anneliese?
anneliese: Well, it is a story that I have written and rewritten and dumped many times. I figured I'd give it one more chance, since I've invested
anneliese: so much world building into it.
camidon: There's at least 10 people signed up in the Fort Collins that have posted on the board, plus I'm betting a whole bunch more. They have get togethers, which I may try to arrange sometime. The only catch is I don't know if any would be scifi related--but if you post on the bboard, you'll probably find out.
camidon: (posted in the CO: Elsewhere, region section of the bboard that is)
camidon: Do you have a working title, Anneliese?
anneliese: There's at least 40 in CT and a whole host of activities planned.
anneliese: Title is "Chrysalis" It is a kind of heroes journey.
anneliese: Or is that hero's journey
anneliese: What are you working on?
camidon: There were 7 pages of CO folks, and I think like 20 on a page, so like 150 folks maybe? Most likely more.
camidon: Book IV: The Elevator to the End of the World, "The Fall of Imagination"
davek: How many have signed up total?
anneliese: 33,000
anneliese: Give or take.
camidon: I finished Book III a few days ago, in Oct, and decided instead of writing a whole new scifi related book, I'd finish of these children's novels so I don't leave anything hanging.
anneliese: Where did you find the list of CO folks?
anneliese: Sounds like a good plan.
camidon: I did an author search, under location: Colorado.
davek: Do I have to pretend that I'm going to be writing?
anneliese: The NaNo site is very slow right now.
camidon: I hope Mike and Elizabeth find some time to enjoy this challenge. I haven't been so motivated in a long time. Whenever I had a free moment today I was writing.
anneliese: Do what your concience dictates, Dave,
anneliese: Mike and Elizabeth are signed up.
camidon: Don't think so Dave. I'm sure there are folks who sign up that don't wind up writing anything for one reason or another.
camidon: Yes, Annelies, but will the find the time to write those first 735 words.
anneliese: I couldn't do any writing until after supper, but I thought about it a lot.
camidon: Because I finished Book III before Nov, I had a few days to plan Book IV, outlining, which gave me a good running head start. I hope to break 3,000 today
anneliese: I'll probably stay up and at least get to 1,000 today.
anneliese: Hubby is sick, so he's in bed already.
camidon: So you're free the entire night! 4:00AM here you come! Well, probably not if you have to work.
camidon: Did either of you two pick at the 100 word intro story challenge?
anneliese: Yea, that work thing is a bummer. And I do have to be up by 7am.
camidon: One day at a time, Anneliese, one day at a time.
anneliese: I'm hoping that if I can get at least 1K words a day during the week, that I can catch up over the weekend.
camidon: Or should that be one word at a time, one word at a time?
davek: No. I'm trying to find out where all my time goes. Today our email provider caused some kind of mail loop and all our email was screwed up.
anneliese: Plus, I'll be waiting in the doctor's office much of Wed. afternoon. Should get some writing in then.
anneliese: I pretty much know how I waste my time. Carving it into different priorities is the problem.
camidon: After I got tour message on the NaNo site, I sent one to Mike. You probably did too?? As a little encoiragement.
camidon: Did you get snow, Dave? I think it's snowed every Halloween in Sterling for the last 3 years.
davek: I'm trying to use it as a stroy idea. So far I have the government using "idle" minds by subliminal TV messages.
anneliese: I think I did. I know that I sent one to you and Elizabeth. but I was guessing at what you all used for login names.
davek: Just a few flakes. Nothing on the ground but a little in the foot hills.
camidon: Time Wasting= checking email 4 times between every sentence.
anneliese: Wonder if the government could use idle minds for anything else?
camidon: We got about 3-5 inches, but it's mostly melted.
anneliese: We had a stunningly gorgeous day, in the upper 60's.
davek: I was thiking that the government used them to search for patterns but now computers are so cheap they are "unemploying" the minds. It causes problems with too many people just hanging around.
camidon: I looked for Elizabeth, but didn't know enough to pick her out definitively. I decided against sending a random message, and then getting a "Who the hell are you back"
camidon: Mike's is EmptyKube, at least, I couldn't image anyone else using that screenname from the NE.
anneliese: I think you might have something there, Dave...keep going with it.
anneliese: Yep, that's it, and I did send Mike a message.
anneliese: And Elizabeth is using MacBethI
camidon: Run with it, Dave.
anneliese: At least we are all predictable!
davek: Thanks Annaliese. I'll probably work on it a bit more.
anneliese: Did the gov't have some two-way tv connection in which to employ the minds?
camidon: I was right. I found her screen name then, but the last name drew a blank so I balked. Oh well.
anneliese: Hardage?
camidon: Yep.
anneliese: That's her.
camidon: Good to know. We didn't have a topic tonight did we?
anneliese: Not unless Greg showed up.
anneliese: I was kind of hoping that Elizabeth would have distributed the challenge subs.
davek: I wasn't thinking of a two way link. More of like SETI at home. We get info downloaded to us and process it and then send back a brief found it message if it applies.
camidon: Ah. Is Bruce really back, or did you just swap out his email addresses?
anneliese: I like that, Dave.
davek: Any luck with Mark on the old site?
camidon: That's a cool idea, Dave
anneliese: I'm not sure about Bruce. I think he's lurking right now.
davek: I'm great with ideas, I'm very poor about following them through.
anneliese: Bob, it seems, is back, though. Don't know what happened to his email address.
camidon: random tidbit of info: Some government employee lost his job in Ohio for using a government computer to decrypt the SETI at home stuff. It wasn't even during work hours, it was after hours, but apparently that was a no-no. Ugh.
anneliese: I haven't heard anything from Mark...I cc'd him on the November update as a gentle reminder, though.
camidon: That's why were here, Dave. To prod you into action every once and a while, because when you do get a story out, it's usually pretty good.
anneliese: Darn good, even!
davek: Usually?? BUt thanks. I don't know why I'm so non-writing right now.
anneliese: Of course, you too, CM. I am amazed at how your writing has improved over the years.
camidon: I noticed Mike made a small reference to SFWW in one post on the NaNo board, but I still think we need a topic about it in the Science Fiction/Fantasy section
anneliese: We all go through non-writing phases...for a bunch of reasons.
anneliese: I agree. I thought Elizabeth volunteered to do that. Which is why I was holding back for now.
camidon: Yeah, we all do. For a few months a few years ago I disappeared from writing, but then I came back.
camidon: Thanks, Anneliese
anneliese: My non-writing stints are usually much longer than that...years, unfortunately.
davek: I do have another idea - it is for a modification to one of those skocking dog collars. I just don't know how to have it do a critique of my writing.
anneliese: LOL Dave, does it need to be able to critique as well as prod?
davek: Unfortunatly this November is when this startup is trying to get going. It screwed around all summer and now it wants to get going.
anneliese: My experience with things like that, Dave, is that they never go as quickly as they say.
davek: Well, the shock is proportional to the number of words and how good they are.
camidon: Well, I've recently put in for permanent jobs with the Park Service, and if I get one, my writing will slow to a trickle too. Unless your one of the lucky few who breaks out and starts selling lots of stuff, writing is always a secondary thing, sometimes much lower then that sadly.
anneliese: If the say they are *going* to start up this month, then they *might* actually get it done next month.
camidon: LoL, Dave. There's those good idea.
anneliese: If you aren't fully entrenched in the startup right now, you have time to write. amazingly, it will all work out.
davek: They have been saying it for months. This month we have a letter from another company so if we want some help from them we need to move.
camidon: Maybe just have it adjusted so it only shocks you if you check
camidon: your email too many times. That's what I'd need.
anneliese: We're starting a new web service in my company. We thought we9;d have customers by September. Got our first last week.
davek: OK, different plugin modules for your specific needs.
anneliese: How much responsibility do you bear wrt the startup process?
davek: Only a month off. That is pretty good.
camidon: I think the big thing about the non-writing periods is to staying in contact with actve writing folks. Then there's always that reminder, and always some one to talk to or email. When you lose all correspondence, then it's clear writing has fallen completely off the radar screen.
anneliese: Damn good, but it is only one customer and we need at least 2/week.
anneliese: Exactly, CM, which is why I stayed with SFWW even though I have been unable to write anything for several years.
davek: Good point. Fortunatly, I'm very much a creature of habit so once I start something I do keep going.
camidon: If I don't have to pay, I'll be a customer.
anneliese: Hey, I'm still doing some pro-bono work for the old portfolio.
anneliese: Which is why I had no regrets doing the SFWW site.
camidon: Simply geting SFWW emails while I was non-writing kept me interested. That's why I didn't want to cull the heard right away, but eventually... That's why I like that "sabbatical" category.
anneliese: I'll be interested in if some of the herd responds to my last update.
davek: Good point. I'd like to change my vote about dropping the non-participators.
camidon: I still want to do more stuff with the links page, and other asundry things with the website, but not until it's visible.
anneliese: I agree completely. I'm going to try sending out the "please update your link" letters again.
anneliese: And I am getting a nibble now and then from the SFWW group page I started.
camidon: Who's "Tere2251@aol.com"? I was wading through my inbox wasteland and saw a random crit, but she hasn't done one since, nor any for months before that as I can find. It's always so weird to have people pop up for like a week, then disappear again.
anneliese: She used to be very regular, then dropped off.
anneliese: Never submitted much, but wrote pretty good crits.
camidon: What are you changing your vote from Dave?
davek: I want to keep the non-workers. Maybe they will eventually get back into it.
camidon: Ah.
anneliese: Some will return. Others have definately moved on.
davek: I am working on writing a business plan. Maybeo only 50% fiction.
anneliese: 50% that's pretty good. Usually they're about 90% fiction.
davek: But we need new members. I'm hoping the nanowrimo will generate a few.
davek: I wasn't counting the boilerplate.
anneliese: LOL
anneliese: At least you're trying to write a business plan. Too many try to skip that step, or short-shrift it.
camidon: I'm lost, What do you mean business plan? 50% fiction. The boilerplate? I missed something.
davek: Hello. Did I freeze up?
anneliese: not to us
camidon: I don't think so. I just lost the strain of conversation.
anneliese: I think he was referring to the work he is doing with the startup.
camidon: Oh. That helps. OKay, but how does that relate to the boilerplate? I feel so dense at the moment.
davek: Yeah, a business plan is the description of what a company is trying to do and how.
anneliese: There is a certain amount of introductory and supporting material that goes with a business plan that is pretty standardized text...never changes...hence, it is called boilerplate.
camidon: Thanks, Dave, I figured that much out! lol Ah, now, that sheds some light, Anneliese. lol.
anneliese: It might be how long the company has been in business, bios of the principals, mission statement, etc.
camidon: I've learned something new. Not only are these chats entertaining, they're educational!
davek: I went to the library and got a few books. They made me the expert.
anneliese: Yes, but what do you really want to know...the dull stuff of business, or fun stuff like caves?
anneliese: That is pretty much all you have to do, Dave, the books will give you the format, then you fill in the blanks.
camidon: Well, the business side is more profitable... But I get the shivers just thinking about it. Yes, caves are much more fun. And writing.
anneliese: Definately writing
anneliese: I'm toying with a blog or journal to track my writing progress this month.
davek: I can write I just can't re-write or edit.
anneliese: Probably a waste of time, but it might be another motivator...not sure.
anneliese: It took me many years to understand the concept of rewrites, Dave.
davek: Or a sink of time. I would say just use a column of nuimbers.
anneliese: I'm still a neophyte, but I think I finally understand the difference between a first and second draft.
davek: And rewards at every 10000 words.
anneliese: Ooo, rewards. I hadn't even considered that!
camidon: Give it a go, Anneliese. Never know unless you try, Good way to organize your thoughts, and those of us doing NaNo can keep up on your progress through that
davek: Next story I write I get a new expresso machine.
camidon: and through procrastinating im's over the nano board...
anneliese: I was thinking of either doing something with the wiki, or, since I have to set up a blog for the business, using that.
camidon: Ah, now that's a fantastic idea, Dave.
anneliese: Actually, I could probably set up the blog on the SFWW site so any of us could use it.
camidon: I'll I got for my finishing my III book was a slice of pie. I think I need to think bigger.
anneliese: I like that idea, Dave...but I already have an espresso machine...if hubby hasn't given it away.
anneliese: You definately need to think bigger, CM
camidon: Maybe a car... Hmmm... Can't think that big... Maybe a caving trip--wait already doing that. Hmm, this is hard.
anneliese: I still owe you a crit for your last sub.
camidon: Yes, for being so imaginative with words, I find it much harder to be imaginative in other facets of my life.
anneliese: From what I understand, a typical problem of most artists, including writers.
anneliese: I'm thinking about rewards such as washing the windows, or finally painting the bedroom.
anneliese: Whatever my reward is, it has to be cheap...I'm pretty broke right now.
camidon: Ah, washing the windows, what a reward. I think I'd prefer a slice of pie.
camidon: At least it tastes good!
anneliese: I really can't stand looking out of my windows, though, so having them clean would be a reward.
davek: It must be a "girl" thing.
anneliese: Problem is, I can't do it without help.
anneliese: LOL maybe it is a 'girl' thing.
davek: Somebody claims to have proven that men can't see dirt the same as women.
camidon: Hey, whatever works for you! That's my motto. Until my waist line increase, I'll stick with pie slices, or maybe entire pies.
anneliese: Go for the whole pie! Maybe a pie festival!
camidon: Mmmm, pie. I should stop mentioning that. Mmm pie.
anneliese: I think that men and women see most things differently.
camidon: This hour has been great fun, but I'm ready to to do a little writing.
anneliese: I agree. I really enjoy our times together.
davek: Somebody claims to have proven that men can't see dirt the same as women.
camidon: Hopefully, Elizabeth can get out those challenges if she's not to booked.
anneliese: I hope so too...haven't heard much from her lately.
camidon: I'd say, I'd be back next week, but next week is AOL. Perhaps I'll come here anyway.
davek: I'm having link trouble. I may have to say good night.
System: davek leaves the channel. goes to channel: group
camidon: Well, that's good timing on Dave's part.
anneliese: I guess so.
anneliese: I can try to show up here as well...perhaps a bit earlier?
camidon: Good luck with your writing, Anneliese. If you need some motivation, don't hesitate to email and I'll be glad to procrastinate for a while writing an email/im response.
anneliese: Yes, we should continue to nudge each other. I'd appreciate it, anyway
camidon: Sure, I'll drop in around 7:30MDT, or 9:30EDT
camidon: If no one's around, no biggie though.
anneliese: Sounds like a plan. Also, if you have AIM, I'm trying to keep it on: acmfox.
anneliese: See you later, then...it's back to writing for now!
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
camidon: I've band ICQ and AOL; I never got ANYTHING done with them; but I'll check out the NaNo site often.
camidon: SOunds good, gnight Anneliese.
anneliese: Niters, and wb, Dave.
camidon: Welcome back, Dave, we're just saying our goodnights!

Chat log for October 25, 2004

Submitted by acmfox on Mon, 10/25/2004 - 11:34pm

System: geclifford joined us. Cheers!
System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
camidon: that you Greg?
geclifford: i think so
camidon: Hello, then!
geclifford:
camidon: I thought you worked evenings?
System: anneliese joined us. Cheers!
camidon: Evening, Anneliese
camidon: Regardless, Greg it's nice to see you here.
anneliese: Hi Gret! Hi CM!
anneliese: I mean, Hi Greg!
geclifford: hi
geclifford: i do work evenings, but i called in sick
anneliese: Just to be with us
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Dave!
davek: HI guys
camidon: Evening, Dave\
geclifford: howdy
anneliese: Is everone silent all of a sudden, or is it me?
davek: Everyone was silent but you ;-)
camidon: Dave, I got this name for you: Gary Raham, who wrote the "Deep Time Diaries" He writes science nonfiction and science fiction nonfiction for kids, at least that's what the group said. He's suppose to live in Fort Collins. I asked!
geclifford: sorry, i'm working on a chapter write now
anneliese: OK, I knew I had too many windows open.
geclifford: so, anyone figure out what i was saying in the story yet?
camidon: They also said they'd ask around for me and email me if they found anything from their other group contacts.
davek: Thanks CM. What is "science fiction nonfiction for kids".
geclifford: only that weasel-faced Mike Marsh seemed to get it (curse him)
anneliese: It left me a bit perplexed, Greg.
camidon: oops typo, that second nonfiction should not be there.
davek: Didn't kow if your missed an "and"? Thanks for the leads.
camidon: I'll let you know if anything else drops my way
geclifford: the story is understandable if you have the key, but i purposely hid the key deep in the story
davek: WHy?
geclifford: because i wanted the story to be a challenge to my readers
geclifford: but it needs to be written better
anneliese: I certainly found it to be challenging, and very dark.
camidon: Greg, it's not that I didn't understand the basic premise (to quote Mike: "I found the idea rather intriguing, sort of reverse of what many liberal minded people are worrying about these days," I just thought the protagonist died at the end.
camidon: which apparently he didn't.
geclifford: no, he doesn't die. i wrote that ending too hastily and didn't get it right
camidon: What were your intentions? Then we might be able to make suggestions to make them better???
geclifford: do u think the pace goes too fast?
anneliese: I thought the pace was about right.
camidon: Greg, the story does challenge the reader, and that's one of the reason's I did enjoy it, imo.
geclifford: well, to answer your question, this story is really about torture
anneliese: I have to admit, I had problems with the story, but I can't say exactly why.
geclifford: david is undergoing a future form of torture involving virtual reality
davek: I didn't get that at all.
anneliese: Neither did I
geclifford: i'll try to make that more clear in the rewrite, without giving it away too easily
davek: I thought it was flashbacks or flashforwards.
anneliese: It felt like flashbacks to me.
geclifford: the scene in the dungeon is supposed to hint that he is undergoing torture
anneliese: Torture to extort a confession?
camidon: Ah, I was rereading the story looking for some corrolary between Jesus and God. Looking at the hot poker line in his head made me think crown of thorns.
geclifford: yes
geclifford: but i wrote it all rather badly at the end
geclifford: i wanted to get it finished so that i could send it out, hehe
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
geclifford: hi
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth!
camidon: I got that, Greg, about the dungeon torture, I just thought that happened after he got caught for his actions. I didn't clue up the "hot poker in his head hints" though and things like that until now.
Elizabeth: hi! Sorry I'm late.
geclifford: they were just saying what a wonderful writer i am
anneliese: Oh, by gosh yes!
Elizabeth: lol! You are, Greg. But I did wonder whether David died at the end or not.
camidon: yes, yes, of course!
geclifford: he didn't
geclifford: bad writing on my part
Elizabeth: Other than that, I liked the interrogation/torture scene. Nicely surreal.
geclifford: thanks
geclifford: thanks
Elizabeth: And if you can just hint that it's a form of VR--perhaps the angel/Mary smiles to reveal circuitry--that would cinch it in the reader's mind.
geclifford: i was going for surreal
camidon: Ugh, that comment made no sense. What I meant was: I got the torturing at the end, but did not place it with the "fuzzy-headed scenes" as I called them earlier.
Elizabeth: I liked the reversal--the fundamentalists actually being persecuted.
geclifford: i've been working on the story today. hopefully i'll made things more clear
Elizabeth: What if the angel/Mary morphs, at the end, into his interrogator(s)? That way both David and the reader know what's going on.
camidon: I think your interspliced torture scenes need to be more concrere. The "fuzzy headedness" only goes so far. I like the first line, "His head burned, like a hot poker..." Just not all the spinning
davek: I just finished a book on writing. Oneof the suggestions is to have someone read your story and then summarize the plot.
Elizabeth: Put horns and tails on the interrogators, if you like, as a final touch.
geclifford: good idea, elizabeth
geclifford: hehe
geclifford: what did you fine people like most about the story?
camidon: I do like the horns and tails idea!
Elizabeth: And the religious overtones to the torture David suffers are excellent. Rack, crown of thorns (which was where I went with the hot poker description)--those were great.
Elizabeth: The Crucifixion and Inquisition all rolled into one evil interrogation sim.
anneliese: I thought it was very visual, which I liked.
geclifford: was anyone disappointed that david turned out to be the bad guy?
Elizabeth: I liked that David's family was sympathetic--especially Mary. I liked David's devotion to his sister. I also liked that the counterprotestor's death was really accidental...
camidon: I loved the dialogue between David's parents about closing a school in Iowa. That's where the story clicked for me.
Elizabeth: the first in a series of tragic mistakes. That was very true-to-life for me.
Elizabeth: No, I could see David going that direction. It made sense with his background, and with the warped force of his convictions.
geclifford: but did u remain sympathetic to him?
camidon: It was the persecution theme, no matter what side you're on. It's great to look at something from the opposite spectrums, and this story does that. I do think that theme got lost in the bomb, all the flashbacks, and the torture.
Elizabeth: He was seduced at a very vulnerable point in his life by this fanatical preacher, and like many people who have lost loved ones to political violence, he retaliated in kind.
davek: I'm not sympathetic if he is a bomber.
System: operator joined us. Cheers!
geclifford: hi
camidon: I also thought the protest scene and where Dave's sister dies starts to push things of the top. The persecution theme works best when itis understated, like the simple comments around the breakfast table about a school closing.
operator: bonsoir... it's Eddy/Chris
anneliese: Hello Operator??
operator: still having problems with my login
camidon: Hola, Eddy.
geclifford: hi eddy/chris
anneliese: Hi eddy!
Elizabeth: Ooooh. What if the morph in the end is from Mary/Angel to fanatical preacher, and *then* to the cloven-hoofed and horned interrogators?
Elizabeth: Sorry, just had to get that idea out.
anneliese: I think that since I always equated Dave as being a terrorist, I had trouble sympathizing with his character.
geclifford: anyone else have the same reaction to the protest scene? i'd like to know which scenes ring false
camidon: Or you could given the interrogators bent ankles, as Joyce Carol Oates (I think its her) does in the famous story about Arnold Friend...
Elizabeth: I was horrified by what David had become, but by showing how he started on that road, and the very real persecution and grief he feels, keep him from seeming like a complete monster.
Elizabeth: Whoops. That was discombobulated.
camidon: I didn't sympathize with David, but I wanted to find out what was happening to him and why.
Elizabeth: <=== agrees w/CM
geclifford: how early did u guess he was the bomber?
anneliese: From about the second 'graph
Elizabeth: I suspected it all along. The central mystery for me wasn't so much "who's the bomber?" as "how did this seemingly nice, pious guy turn into a terrorist?"
camidon: He was a very interesting character. I thought about sympathizing, but couldn't. Perhaps that's why I wanted him to die at the end and realize there was no God--
camidon: First scene the van was mentioned.
Elizabeth: Have you read Oryx and Crake, by Margaret Atwood?
geclifford: the fact that this story is about a car bomber is a bit touchy in todays world. i worried about that
geclifford: not me, elizabeth
Elizabeth: The setup's similar. She shows us this horrible, bleak post-apocalyptic world, so we know from the get-go what happened. The mystery that kept me reading was, "how did this happen? And how do the narrator and his friend/lover figure into it?"
anneliese: I guess that I assume that most terrorists have a story like David9;s to turn them the way they are...I want to know why everyone doesn't become a terrorists instead.
camidon: Anneliese, is right, the second paragraph. I remember now HOPING that Dave was NOT the bomber, as that seemed pretty apparent from the beginning.
Elizabeth: In other words, I don't think you have to try to hide the bomber's identity.
geclifford: ok
Elizabeth: Part of the suspense, for me, was wondering if David was actually going to get away with it.
camidon: Agrees with Elizabeth
geclifford: so...a lot od suspense in the story?
Elizabeth: And, like CM, hoping that somehow David would be shown to be innocent.
Elizabeth: I thought so.
System: operator joined us. Cheers!
Elizabeth: hi Eddy!
geclifford: good. i do try to layer on the suspense
camidon: oh, wait: is this the proper format <==== agrees with Elizabeth :biggrin:
geclifford: hi again
anneliese: I agree...suspense is good...there is quite a lot in the story.
Elizabeth: And in this story I think you did an excellent job.
geclifford:
camidon: oh pooh, my smiley didn't work
Elizabeth: I just wanted a clearer idea of what happened to David in the end. I got that he was caught, and linked to that and several other car bombings, but the end wasn 't quite clear to me. I thought that David had actually died.
camidon: I agree with the suspense, Greg, it was there. I think in all the crits, everyone was compelled to read to the end.
System: operator joined us. Cheers!
geclifford: suspense is the number one thing i shoot for in a story.
Elizabeth: And you're quite good at it, IMHO.
anneliese: <===agrees with Elizabeth
camidon: Now, since your getting people to READ the stories. Now you just have to get them to like them!
geclifford: lol
operator: I would like to see a theme come out in the end
Elizabeth: Or at least put the story down feeling that it had a real impact.
operator: some reason for the story to exist
geclifford: ias soon as i decide on a theme i'll add it in, hehe
operator: a theme doesn't have to be a moral, it just has to be a focus for the plot
Elizabeth: There are some SF stories I've read (I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream) which are horrible going--which give me nightmares for days afterward--but because of the suspense, and the intensity, I still consider them good stories. Even if I didn't "enjoy" them.
camidon: This particular story just needs a few revisions. I think it's strong. Keep the suspense strong, but don't overdo the fundamentalist confrontations.
operator: e.g. religious nuts will pervert good people
camidon: I would argue there is a theme: persecution
camidon: That's one of the things that kept me reading. The flipping of persecution on its head.
operator: how about: persecution creates terrorists?
Elizabeth: <=== agrees w/CM. The theme is persecution, whether it's the persecution David suffers in the beginning or the persecution he inflicts upon others by the end.
Elizabeth: Good point, Eddy.
geclifford: thanks, camidon. i knew you'd come to my defense. (i'll pay you your twenty bucks later.)
Elizabeth: lol!
anneliese: lol
operator: well "persecution" by itself isn't a theme
camidon: <==== Agrees with Elizabeth 100%
geclifford: hmm, i like that idea, eddy
camidon: ha!
Elizabeth: If I defend you, Greg, will you send me $20? I could use the dinero.
davek: It may be a theme but it's not a plot.
geclifford: chris took the last of my money
Elizabeth: Darn. Too late again.
camidon: Ah, that's a good point too, Dave. And that's where the bomb comes in... imo
geclifford: the main things i am worried about now is if the pacing is too fast, and if some scenes ring false
operator: I liked the pacing
operator: just the flipping back and forth in time lost me
camidon: When I sell a story, I 'll pay ya back, Greg!
operator: the story was more in flashback than in present
davek: I agree with Eddy. I got lost. I didn't know what was real.
Elizabeth: I think the pacing is good.
geclifford: hehe
Elizabeth: And there needs to be something traumatic that happens to David and his family, to drive him to terrorism.
camidon: I just read your crit, Eddy, and I agree with the "too many" flashbacks. I think it would be smart to really think through which ones you want to use, maybe make them more concise and only use a few.
Elizabeth: Mary's death would certainly do that...but I kind of wondered about the rock. Maybe a riot squad's rubber bullet, fired in the wrong direction?
operator: well... I have seen the flipping back and forth thing work, but in a longer piece
operator: I think you need to spend more time in present tense than in flashback
camidon: The I like the constant jumping, (perhaps induced by the torture?) it does get a little difficult to keep up with all the jumps
operator: otherwise, why have it in present tense?
Elizabeth: Or perhaps some "non-lethal" crowd control which, for a person as small and young as Mary, is lethal after all?
geclifford: actually, it was all in present time. it just seemed that he was flipping around in time a lot
Elizabeth: In this society, I can see law enforcement being pretty heavy-handed.
operator: ah
operator: interesting
Elizabeth: And the general society being pretty unsympathetic to David's family's plight.
camidon: (ugh, bad, quick typing. shouldn't have had that sugar) There should be no "the" and a "but" in my last comment. Ugh.
anneliese: Remember, a Red Sox fan was just killed with a riot control bean bag.
Elizabeth: "You brought it upon yourselves. The police were just doing their jobs."
camidon: Good point, Anneliese
Elizabeth: Exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about, Anneliese.
Elizabeth: I know that rubber bullets can, if they enter the eye, kill as well.
anneliese: And it was apparently 'too graphic' to show the pictures.
davek: ANy society that tourtures you can't be too concerned with an ocassional death.
geclifford: hmm, good idea about the rubber bullet. perhaps i can rework the scene so that mary is killed by the government
anneliese: Not necessarily...this torture is non-physical.
camidon: The whole rock out of the area felt hollow. That seemed to set-p, though maybe it just needs another draft. I did want something else to happen to Mary. Maybe she could be trampled? Or as E suggested, hit by a bullet?
operator: for me, the most frightening part of torture is the thought of lasting damage
operator: pain by itself sucks but you can endure it
operator: that's why I wonder if purely psychological torture would be truly effective, when the sufferer knows it's not permanent
camidon: <gosh, now I can't even understand what I wrote!) The whole thrown rock hitting Mary on the head did not feel right to me.
Elizabeth: Plus, if it's conducted in a VR environment, it could be the kind of secret government facility that nobody knows about.
davek: physical or non-physical pain is pain and torture is torture.
Elizabeth: Torture that doesn't do any physical damage might be even harder to take...the pain goes on and on and you can't pass out or die to escape it.
Elizabeth: Which is what happens, eventually, with physical torture.
Elizabeth: The police could say that David's in police or government custody, and nobody outside knows what's actually happening to him.
camidon: I agree with Dave. I think the virtual torture angle is very appropriate after events at the prison in Iraq. By the current US's standards, virtual torture would be perfectly legal
Elizabeth: Or cares, if the media pumps up the "terrorist" angle enough.
operator: Iraq wasn't torture though, it was humiliation and mind games
camidon: And it could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on, etc
Elizabeth: He's a fundy terrorist, after all. The general public won't have much sympathy for him.
geclifford: (looks in dictionary for "fundy")
operator: (people are getting all huffy about humiliating terrorists, which I really can't understand, but anyhow)
Elizabeth: In most cases...but I recall some prisoners were subjected to electrical shocks and dog attacks.
operator: I hdn't heard that
Elizabeth: A few actually died of their injuries, if I recall correctly.
Elizabeth: "fundy" = slang for fundamentalist.
geclifford: oh
operator: terry?
operator: a fundy terry?
anneliese: I think that humiliation is a function of torture.
Elizabeth: Bwahahah, Eddy!
geclifford: i like those slang terms. maybe i'll use them
operator: a fundy terry with a widdle bomby
Elizabeth: Anneliese is right...especially if you're dealing with a culture where family/social honor is held in high value.
geclifford: i think that listening to rap music is torture
camidon: That's good. And funny, and double slang bonus.
Elizabeth: roflmao!
geclifford: widdle bomby, hehe
Elizabeth: Didn't US interrogators use country & western music as part of their Iraqi interrogations? Apparently the locals just hate it.
davek: My problem with the story is that it has no ending.
operator: oh those poor bastards!
geclifford: probably a keyword that the FBI searches for. this chat is probably being recorded
camidon: <==== agrees with Dave. Greg, what are your plans for the end?
operator: well, to flog the theme thing: the ending would reinforce the theme
geclifford: it has an ending, just a very bad one
anneliese: Geee...I wonder if I should post the chat log...hmmmm...
Elizabeth: After twenty-four hours of Toby Keith et al, you could get me to confess to most anything.
davek: But I will admit that a lot of what is published these days has no ending either.
Elizabeth: Sure. The federal inquiry will be great publicity.
camidon: In your mind. What was the current ending, and how do you want to make it not a "bad one"?
geclifford: i'm still not sure how i'm going to handle the end. i'm waiting for inspiration to strike me
camidon: There's our answer to new members!! Who wants to go on trial first!?!
davek: The story stops but I'm not sure that that is an end.
geclifford: hehe
Elizabeth: I do think there needs to be something like what you implied in this draft: either David realizes that there is no God, or he hallucinates God/Jesus telling him, "I said, thou shalt not kill. You're on your own."
geclifford: i was thinking about having him wake up in a white room full of technicians and realize he didn't die and go to heaven
camidon: BTW, Elizabeth did you ever get a chance to contact the NanoWrimo folks? and post something on there board?
Elizabeth: That would be good.
geclifford: but that might be too obvious
Elizabeth: I've signed up for NaNoWriMo, but I still need to ask about posting our info on their boards.
operator: if the theme is persecution creates terrorists, then the ending would be something that shows David is now a terrorist
camidon: I'd argue to write and ending with that idea in mind, and see how it feels.
operator: that's pretty boring tho
davek: Just post it. Remember, it is easier to ask forgiveness then permission.
anneliese: I like what Elizabeth said: David realizes that there is no God, or he hallucinates God/Jesus telling him, "I said, thou shalt not kill. You're on your own." It balances with the opening "Jesus stands for peace"
camidon: That's like the end scene from Brazil, kind of
Elizabeth: what if he realizes that he *is* a terrorist, and as such, has forfeited his ticket to heaven (I know I'm being flip here, but...)? That, for him, would be a serious, serious tragedy.
davek: I like that ending - persercution creates terrorists.
operator: it seems like he already knows that, though
operator: he has already recognized he screwed up
operator: now he wants to blame someone, or something
camidon: I like that idea, realizing he is a terroist, and mentally that's worse than any torture. Admittedly, I think that would be hard to pull off.
operator: or just strike out
geclifford: i tried to imply that he had regrets
Elizabeth: Perhaps a more physical realization, then, something like David hallucinating Jesus, talking about "Jesus stands for love, peace", and so forth, Jesus reminding him of "thou shalt not kill" and morphing into one of the interrogators.
geclifford: but didnt carry it too far
operator: I like that one
Elizabeth: It seemed to me like he had qualms, sometimes, about what he was doing, but he had managed to quash them.
camidon: Maybe you could use that "Jesus stands for peace" slogan more through the story, and that's what Dave latches onto at the end to suddenly realize he's f*cked up big time. Just an idea.
geclifford: my plan was for Mary to stand in as Jesus. it's be more emtional for him
operator: the hallucination thing fits with the VR torture
camidon: Maybe Mary could wear a "Jesus stands for peace" shirt
geclifford: hehe
Elizabeth: Maybe not, Greg. David rationalizes his acts by his faith, "defending Jesus". Mary is the person he loved the most, but he's not killing people in her name, even if her death was the impetus for his going over to terrorism.
camidon: in his hallucinations.
geclifford: might work
Elizabeth: What if Mary asks him about the people he's killed? Maybe appears with some of them...other children her age, mothers, people David would be less inclined to demonize.
davek: Maybe forget all the pain stuff and have the VR have him talk to god and realize his crimes. Then as he confesses you releave that the "vision" was the VR stuff.
Elizabeth: Ooh. That's another good suggestion, Dave.
operator: yeah... Dead Zone meets A Clockwork Orange!
geclifford: thats sort of what i have in mind, just wondering how to work it now
camidon: Imo, I don't like that thought. Pretending to talk to God I think would ruin the "feeling" of the story. I don't why I "feel" that, but I do.
operator: actually, if you hint or say early on that the gov'mint legalized VR torture, then that would still work and it could clear up the flashbacks
geclifford: thats why i use Mary to stand in for Jesus/God
operator: I don't think that's strong enough
anneliese: The question in my mind is: is the VR actually controlling, or inducing 'memories'
camidon: And I think that's the way to go, using Mary as God's voice.
geclifford: for him to talk directly to God just doesn't feel right to me
operator: he doesn't worship mary... er... hope not
Elizabeth: Well, she is named after the mother of Jesus.
operator: religious nuts do talk to God
operator: and they think God talks to them
davek: BUt does he answer?
camidon: But it needs to be written better with mary (either said then done, of course)
Elizabeth: And she is the person he's closest to, even after all these years.
geclifford: but he's not really a religious nut. he doesn't do it for god, he doesn't it for revenge as uses god as a cover
Elizabeth: I can see her, in the course of his torture/interrogation, morphing into God, or at least speaking for him.
geclifford: does it*
camidon: True, eddy, but for some reason, I didn't think David ever DID talk to God. I got the feeling he wanted to, but never did, and so in his mind, there's the itsy bitsy sliver of doubt (and maybe I';m totally wrong)
anneliese: I think Dave would be more comfortable if he thought Mary was speaking for god, not as god.
geclifford: go on, camidon, knock him down for me.
Elizabeth: He knows, deep down, that what he's doing is wrong--and probably the last thing his sweet little sister would have wanted for him--but he can't face that.
camidon: <wink, wink> do I get another $20?
geclifford: we'll talk about it
camidon: Seriosuly thought, i think Eddy has a good point, and it just depends if Dave was that kind of "fanatic" If the answer is yes, then i would argue talking to God would make more sense. If the answer is no, then he should never talk to god.
geclifford: i think i need to add a scene of david and his friends planning the attack
anneliese: why?
Elizabeth: I think Mary should, at least in his hallucinations, show him the error of his ways. Perhaps not verbally--maybe she shows up with some of his victims.
operator: well, thinking of the Christians I know, they do believe God watches over them
operator: so if David bombs someone, he knows God saw it
camidon: We are talking about the Dave in the story right, and not Dave K, right?
operator: he knows it was wrong
Elizabeth: I'm not sure we need to see the lead-up to the attack. The story is about what goes on inside of David more than the attack.
operator: oh... I thought they were the same?
operator:
geclifford: i just feel that the story is lacking one important scene, where all the conspirators are together.
operator: so... if StoryDave commits an abomination, he knows he is going to Hell, and he might see his God tell him so
operator: the wacko suicide bombers believe they are going straight to heaven by blowing up infidels
geclifford: true
operator: they believe they are being just
operator: Dave on the other hand, knows he is not
geclifford: but david is not a suicide bomber
geclifford: he doesn't quite have that mentality, that dedication
operator: well I'm using them as an extreme example
Elizabeth: Well, he may see himself as a Crusader...a "Christian soldier", doing battle against the forces of evil.
geclifford: i understand
geclifford: yes, more along those lines, elizabeth
anneliese: It seems that anyone who is a strong believer in something can do abominable things...did abortion clinic bombers think they would go to hell?
Elizabeth: If he believes that most of society is Godless, then he might also believe that he's bringing the wrath of God down upon them. Punishing them for their sinfulness and lack of belief.
Elizabeth: What Anneliese said.
operator: my point is, terrorists believe in their cause, so murder is justified, but it felt like David didn't feel that way
camidon: About the scene with David's conspirators: You could have him screaming out his conspirator's names in the VR torture, while some like Mary demands who he was working with.
operator: so what does that do to Dave?
camidon: I agree with you Eddy, on that point, about David not believing in the cause
operator: $20 -> Chris
geclifford: hehe
geclifford: gimme back my money
Elizabeth: lol!
davek: I couldn't even try to think about what a terrorist thinks.
operator: so... if that's the underlying motivation, poor David would be awfully torn and twisted
camidon: I'm cashing in tonight!
davek: I think at that point he has made up his mind and justified it.
geclifford: he is, but maybe i don't show it enough
operator: I hate to try... but as writers we are supposed to understand our villains
Elizabeth: But I think that if David really doesn't quite believe in the rightness of what he's doing, he'd do something about it...maybe leak names/information to the authorities...try to warn bystanders...even unconsciously sabotage the bombs.
operator: so thinking as a terrorist, I believe murder of innocents is justified so long as it furthers my cause
Elizabeth: Kind of like the criminal who, after evading the law for several crimes, "screws up" in a way he hasn't before. Just can't do it anymore.
davek: OK, and no more story characters named -David. I get confused.
anneliese: I thought he believe in the 'rightness' of what he was doing.
Elizabeth: lol!
operator: I can kill people so long as I don't eat pork or drink caffeine :P
geclifford: lol, dave
camidon: I don't know. I think there is a pang of doubt in David's mind abot what he is doing. But at a certain point he gets swept up in the events. The small portion that wants to stop the attack is not strong enough too.
davek: You have to kill the right people.
Elizabeth: This has been a terrific chat...but I need to sign off. I've got an interview tomorrow that I still have to prep for, and my crazy dog is howling at the office window.
operator: next villain should be named Chris
geclifford: hehe
anneliese: lol
camidon: We can take it, can't we Chris?
anneliese: Good luck with the interview, Elizabeth.
operator: sure Chris
Elizabeth: Me next! Me next!
davek: Yeah, good luck.
camidon: hehe
geclifford: latrer, elizabeth
operator: ahhh the voices the voices turn them off turn them off
Elizabeth: Thanks...Greg, I'll send a critique later, if you want...
camidon: Yep, Good luck, Elizabeth.
operator: nite
Elizabeth: It's an excellent story. Should be salable with a tune-up or two.
geclifford: thats ok, u did a pretty good job here
Elizabeth: Good night, all!
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
anneliese: Yes, I plan to send out some critiques...it's been kind of crazy the past couple of weeks.
anneliese: So I am behind.
geclifford: this chat has been more informative than the critiques i think
camidon: I agree with the salable comment. The key word being <should>
anneliese: Very good chat.
operator:
geclifford: thanks. i was hoping i could sell this. beer is running low
davek: Yeah, time to go. See you all next time. Bye.
geclifford: later
camidon: The story ideas are strong. It's just fine tuning the execurtion <pun intended>
anneliese: Niters,
camidon: Nite, Dave
System: davek left us (snif).
camidon: Damn, another typo. Execution!!
geclifford: if i could just figure out how to nail the ending. its going to require some real finesse writing
anneliese: I know you can do it!
operator: saleable upon execution, means you get a kill fee??
geclifford:
camidon: That's the worst kind of writing. I'm much better when I can just slam my head on the keyboard--the brute force approach.
operator: I like the challenge of writing a slick ending
camidon: Any payment's better than nothing!
operator: well
geclifford: i joined another writing group. its huge
camidon: Anneliese, Dave and I were talking a while back about setting up another challenge
operator: not slick exactly, I mean "clever" or "twisted" or whatever
geclifford: there are so many published writers in it i feel really small
anneliese: Challenge?
operator: what group? is it real or virtual?
camidon: You can always come back to us when you need to feel better! :biggrin:
camidon: Muse challenge, the writing thing we did
geclifford: online writing group. it used to be sponsored by Del Rey. costs $49 to join for a year
anneliese: What did you have in mind?
camidon: ouch, there's that beer money. But they are published...
camidon: We were going to discuss it tonight, but forgot. Maybe next week then we'll set something up.
operator: by challenge I mean the challenge of making something original and clever, like a "Luke I'm your father" kind of ending
geclifford: i'm not leaving this group, just thought i'd double dip
anneliese: Double-dipping can be good.
operator: Zoetrope has one too, I think
geclifford: yes
camidon: I know, I meant you can hang out with us when you need an ego boost! You can relate all their useful hints and tips, right?
operator: it's more for literary types tho
anneliese: And I remember paying more than that to join the Writers Club, way back when.
operator: Critters is good but it felt too mechanical to me
geclifford: they have a very interesting system. all reading and critiquing is done on their website. the site automatically keeps track of your submissions and critiques.
anneliese: Keep us posted on how the other group works out, Greg, I remember back when it was sponsored by Del Ray, there was some criticism of it.
operator: hey I joined the Writers Digest Book Club
camidon: Maybe we should set up a short writing challenge this week, Anneliese, seeing as NanoWriMo is starting on the first. Maybe some kind of quick warm up for this week, done by next Monday?
operator: I can review a bunch of WD books
operator: the first one I got was Agents Editors and You... very good but lacking in a couple of areas
operator: I'm now working on The marshall Plan to Getting your Book Published
anneliese: If you have an idea, CM, why don't you send it out in the am?
geclifford: first step: write a book
anneliese: I don't know, eddy, those topics sound pretty engrossing.
camidon: That's the thing, I don't have a great idea, Anneliese. I was thinking a Nanofiction story, like write a story in 100 words or something.
operator: 100 words = poem !
anneliese: Oooh, that could be a tough one!
operator: I don't think I could get a story in under 10k words
camidon: Any idea, yourself? If we decide on something, I will send it out in the morning.
operator: well, not many
anneliese: How about just a great opening paragraph, one with a terrific hook?
camidon: I guess a 100 word story is a subsection of Flash fiction.
anneliese: Or, in honor of Halloween, a spooky opening.
geclifford: i like the hook idea
camidon: Hey, that's good, like the Grabber contest on Ralans.
operator: we could also do "worst of", e.g. worst openings, worst endings
operator: kind of, what not to do
camidon: Okay, so a 100 word max opening paragraph, spooky theme for Halloween optional
anneliese: Works for me!
anneliese: Of course, I'm begining to panic about NaNoWriMo.
camidon: I like that idea too, Eddy. We'll have to keep that for later use. Okay, then, I'll send an email out about it tomrrow morning.
anneliese: Haven't a clue what I'm going to write.
geclifford: whats that?
operator: OhNoCantWriteNoMo
anneliese: lol
geclifford: well, i gotta return to my writing. cya folks
anneliese: Niters, great chat, everyone.
operator: me too
anneliese: I've gotta turn in as well.
camidon: Nite, Greg. Nice to be able to chat with you.
operator: l8r all
geclifford: was nice to have a nite off
geclifford: bye all
camidon: gnight all.