Chat log for October 25, 2004

System: geclifford joined us. Cheers!
System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
camidon: that you Greg?
geclifford: i think so
camidon: Hello, then!
camidon: I thought you worked evenings?
System: anneliese joined us. Cheers!
camidon: Evening, Anneliese
camidon: Regardless, Greg it's nice to see you here.
anneliese: Hi Gret! Hi CM!
anneliese: I mean, Hi Greg!
geclifford: hi
geclifford: i do work evenings, but i called in sick
anneliese: Just to be with us
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Dave!
davek: HI guys
camidon: Evening, Dave\
geclifford: howdy
anneliese: Is everone silent all of a sudden, or is it me?
davek: Everyone was silent but you Eye-wink
camidon: Dave, I got this name for you: Gary Raham, who wrote the "Deep Time Diaries" He writes science nonfiction and science fiction nonfiction for kids, at least that's what the group said. He's suppose to live in Fort Collins. I asked!
geclifford: sorry, i'm working on a chapter write now
anneliese: OK, I knew I had too many windows open.
geclifford: so, anyone figure out what i was saying in the story yet?
camidon: They also said they'd ask around for me and email me if they found anything from their other group contacts.
davek: Thanks CM. What is "science fiction nonfiction for kids".
geclifford: only that weasel-faced Mike Marsh seemed to get it (curse him)
anneliese: It left me a bit perplexed, Greg.
camidon: oops typo, that second nonfiction should not be there.
davek: Didn't kow if your missed an "and"? Thanks for the leads.
camidon: I'll let you know if anything else drops my way
geclifford: the story is understandable if you have the key, but i purposely hid the key deep in the story
davek: WHy?
geclifford: because i wanted the story to be a challenge to my readers
geclifford: but it needs to be written better
anneliese: I certainly found it to be challenging, and very dark.
camidon: Greg, it's not that I didn't understand the basic premise (to quote Mike: "I found the idea rather intriguing, sort of reverse of what many liberal minded people are worrying about these days," I just thought the protagonist died at the end.
camidon: which apparently he didn't.
geclifford: no, he doesn't die. i wrote that ending too hastily and didn't get it right
camidon: What were your intentions? Then we might be able to make suggestions to make them better???
geclifford: do u think the pace goes too fast?
anneliese: I thought the pace was about right.
camidon: Greg, the story does challenge the reader, and that's one of the reason's I did enjoy it, imo.
geclifford: well, to answer your question, this story is really about torture
anneliese: I have to admit, I had problems with the story, but I can't say exactly why.
geclifford: david is undergoing a future form of torture involving virtual reality
davek: I didn't get that at all.
anneliese: Neither did I
geclifford: i'll try to make that more clear in the rewrite, without giving it away too easily
davek: I thought it was flashbacks or flashforwards.
anneliese: It felt like flashbacks to me.
geclifford: the scene in the dungeon is supposed to hint that he is undergoing torture
anneliese: Torture to extort a confession?
camidon: Ah, I was rereading the story looking for some corrolary between Jesus and God. Looking at the hot poker line in his head made me think crown of thorns.
geclifford: yes
geclifford: but i wrote it all rather badly at the end
geclifford: i wanted to get it finished so that i could send it out, hehe
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
geclifford: hi
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth!
camidon: I got that, Greg, about the dungeon torture, I just thought that happened after he got caught for his actions. I didn't clue up the "hot poker in his head hints" though and things like that until now.
Elizabeth: hi! Sorry I'm late.
geclifford: they were just saying what a wonderful writer i am
anneliese: Oh, by gosh yes!
Elizabeth: lol! You are, Greg. But I did wonder whether David died at the end or not.
camidon: yes, yes, of course!
geclifford: he didn't
geclifford: bad writing on my part
Elizabeth: Other than that, I liked the interrogation/torture scene. Nicely surreal.
geclifford: thanks
geclifford: thanks
Elizabeth: And if you can just hint that it's a form of VR--perhaps the angel/Mary smiles to reveal circuitry--that would cinch it in the reader's mind.
geclifford: i was going for surreal
camidon: Ugh, that comment made no sense. What I meant was: I got the torturing at the end, but did not place it with the "fuzzy-headed scenes" as I called them earlier.
Elizabeth: I liked the reversal--the fundamentalists actually being persecuted.
geclifford: i've been working on the story today. hopefully i'll made things more clear
Elizabeth: What if the angel/Mary morphs, at the end, into his interrogator(Drunk? That way both David and the reader know what's going on.
camidon: I think your interspliced torture scenes need to be more concrere. The "fuzzy headedness" only goes so far. I like the first line, "His head burned, like a hot poker..." Just not all the spinning
davek: I just finished a book on writing. Oneof the suggestions is to have someone read your story and then summarize the plot.
Elizabeth: Put horns and tails on the interrogators, if you like, as a final touch.
geclifford: good idea, elizabeth
geclifford: hehe
geclifford: what did you fine people like most about the story?
camidon: I do like the horns and tails idea!
Elizabeth: And the religious overtones to the torture David suffers are excellent. Rack, crown of thorns (which was where I went with the hot poker description)--those were great.
Elizabeth: The Crucifixion and Inquisition all rolled into one evil interrogation sim.
anneliese: I thought it was very visual, which I liked.
geclifford: was anyone disappointed that david turned out to be the bad guy?
Elizabeth: I liked that David's family was sympathetic--especially Mary. I liked David's devotion to his sister. I also liked that the counterprotestor's death was really accidental...
camidon: I loved the dialogue between David's parents about closing a school in Iowa. That's where the story clicked for me.
Elizabeth: the first in a series of tragic mistakes. That was very true-to-life for me.
Elizabeth: No, I could see David going that direction. It made sense with his background, and with the warped force of his convictions.
geclifford: but did u remain sympathetic to him?
camidon: It was the persecution theme, no matter what side you're on. It's great to look at something from the opposite spectrums, and this story does that. I do think that theme got lost in the bomb, all the flashbacks, and the torture.
Elizabeth: He was seduced at a very vulnerable point in his life by this fanatical preacher, and like many people who have lost loved ones to political violence, he retaliated in kind.
davek: I'm not sympathetic if he is a bomber.
System: operator joined us. Cheers!
geclifford: hi
camidon: I also thought the protest scene and where Dave's sister dies starts to push things of the top. The persecution theme works best when itis understated, like the simple comments around the breakfast table about a school closing.
operator: bonsoir... it's Eddy/Chris
anneliese: Hello Operator??
operator: still having problems with my login
camidon: Hola, Eddy.
geclifford: hi eddy/chris
anneliese: Hi eddy!
Elizabeth: Ooooh. What if the morph in the end is from Mary/Angel to fanatical preacher, and *then* to the cloven-hoofed and horned interrogators?
Elizabeth: Sorry, just had to get that idea out.
anneliese: I think that since I always equated Dave as being a terrorist, I had trouble sympathizing with his character.
geclifford: anyone else have the same reaction to the protest scene? i'd like to know which scenes ring false
camidon: Or you could given the interrogators bent ankles, as Joyce Carol Oates (I think its her) does in the famous story about Arnold Friend...
Elizabeth: I was horrified by what David had become, but by showing how he started on that road, and the very real persecution and grief he feels, keep him from seeming like a complete monster.
Elizabeth: Whoops. That was discombobulated.
camidon: I didn't sympathize with David, but I wanted to find out what was happening to him and why.
Elizabeth: <=== agrees w/CM
geclifford: how early did u guess he was the bomber?
anneliese: From about the second 'graph
Elizabeth: I suspected it all along. The central mystery for me wasn't so much "who's the bomber?" as "how did this seemingly nice, pious guy turn into a terrorist?"
camidon: He was a very interesting character. I thought about sympathizing, but couldn't. Perhaps that's why I wanted him to die at the end and realize there was no God--
camidon: First scene the van was mentioned.
Elizabeth: Have you read Oryx and Crake, by Margaret Atwood?
geclifford: the fact that this story is about a car bomber is a bit touchy in todays world. i worried about that
geclifford: not me, elizabeth
Elizabeth: The setup's similar. She shows us this horrible, bleak post-apocalyptic world, so we know from the get-go what happened. The mystery that kept me reading was, "how did this happen? And how do the narrator and his friend/lover figure into it?"
anneliese: I guess that I assume that most terrorists have a story like David9;s to turn them the way they are...I want to know why everyone doesn't become a terrorists instead.
camidon: Anneliese, is right, the second paragraph. I remember now HOPING that Dave was NOT the bomber, as that seemed pretty apparent from the beginning.
Elizabeth: In other words, I don't think you have to try to hide the bomber's identity.
geclifford: ok
Elizabeth: Part of the suspense, for me, was wondering if David was actually going to get away with it.
camidon: Agrees with Elizabeth
geclifford: so...a lot od suspense in the story?
Elizabeth: And, like CM, hoping that somehow David would be shown to be innocent.
Elizabeth: I thought so.
System: operator joined us. Cheers!
Elizabeth: hi Eddy!
geclifford: good. i do try to layer on the suspense
camidon: oh, wait: is this the proper format <==== agrees with Elizabeth :biggrin:
geclifford: hi again
anneliese: I agree...suspense is good...there is quite a lot in the story.
Elizabeth: And in this story I think you did an excellent job.
camidon: oh pooh, my smiley didn't work
Elizabeth: I just wanted a clearer idea of what happened to David in the end. I got that he was caught, and linked to that and several other car bombings, but the end wasn 't quite clear to me. I thought that David had actually died.
camidon: I agree with the suspense, Greg, it was there. I think in all the crits, everyone was compelled to read to the end.
System: operator joined us. Cheers!
geclifford: suspense is the number one thing i shoot for in a story.
Elizabeth: And you're quite good at it, IMHO.
anneliese: <===agrees with Elizabeth
camidon: Now, since your getting people to READ the stories. Now you just have to get them to like them!
geclifford: lol
operator: I would like to see a theme come out in the end
Elizabeth: Or at least put the story down feeling that it had a real impact.
operator: some reason for the story to exist
geclifford: ias soon as i decide on a theme i'll add it in, hehe
operator: a theme doesn't have to be a moral, it just has to be a focus for the plot
Elizabeth: There are some SF stories I've read (I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream) which are horrible going--which give me nightmares for days afterward--but because of the suspense, and the intensity, I still consider them good stories. Even if I didn't "enjoy" them.
camidon: This particular story just needs a few revisions. I think it's strong. Keep the suspense strong, but don't overdo the fundamentalist confrontations.
operator: e.g. religious nuts will pervert good people
camidon: I would argue there is a theme: persecution
camidon: That's one of the things that kept me reading. The flipping of persecution on its head.
operator: how about: persecution creates terrorists?
Elizabeth: <=== agrees w/CM. The theme is persecution, whether it's the persecution David suffers in the beginning or the persecution he inflicts upon others by the end.
Elizabeth: Good point, Eddy.
geclifford: thanks, camidon. i knew you'd come to my defense. (i'll pay you your twenty bucks later.)
Elizabeth: lol!
anneliese: lol
operator: well "persecution" by itself isn't a theme
camidon: <==== Agrees with Elizabeth 100%
geclifford: hmm, i like that idea, eddy
camidon: ha!
Elizabeth: If I defend you, Greg, will you send me $20? I could use the dinero.
davek: It may be a theme but it's not a plot.
geclifford: chris took the last of my money
Elizabeth: Darn. Too late again.
camidon: Ah, that's a good point too, Dave. And that's where the bomb comes in... imo
geclifford: the main things i am worried about now is if the pacing is too fast, and if some scenes ring false
operator: I liked the pacing
operator: just the flipping back and forth in time lost me
camidon: When I sell a story, I 'll pay ya back, Greg!
operator: the story was more in flashback than in present
davek: I agree with Eddy. I got lost. I didn't know what was real.
Elizabeth: I think the pacing is good.
geclifford: hehe
Elizabeth: And there needs to be something traumatic that happens to David and his family, to drive him to terrorism.
camidon: I just read your crit, Eddy, and I agree with the "too many" flashbacks. I think it would be smart to really think through which ones you want to use, maybe make them more concise and only use a few.
Elizabeth: Mary's death would certainly do that...but I kind of wondered about the rock. Maybe a riot squad's rubber bullet, fired in the wrong direction?
operator: well... I have seen the flipping back and forth thing work, but in a longer piece
operator: I think you need to spend more time in present tense than in flashback
camidon: The I like the constant jumping, (perhaps induced by the torture?) it does get a little difficult to keep up with all the jumps
operator: otherwise, why have it in present tense?
Elizabeth: Or perhaps some "non-lethal" crowd control which, for a person as small and young as Mary, is lethal after all?
geclifford: actually, it was all in present time. it just seemed that he was flipping around in time a lot
Elizabeth: In this society, I can see law enforcement being pretty heavy-handed.
operator: ah
operator: interesting
Elizabeth: And the general society being pretty unsympathetic to David's family's plight.
camidon: (ugh, bad, quick typing. shouldn't have had that sugar) There should be no "the" and a "but" in my last comment. Ugh.
anneliese: Remember, a Red Sox fan was just killed with a riot control bean bag.
Elizabeth: "You brought it upon yourselves. The police were just doing their jobs."
camidon: Good point, Anneliese
Elizabeth: Exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about, Anneliese.
Elizabeth: I know that rubber bullets can, if they enter the eye, kill as well.
anneliese: And it was apparently 'too graphic' to show the pictures.
davek: ANy society that tourtures you can't be too concerned with an ocassional death.
geclifford: hmm, good idea about the rubber bullet. perhaps i can rework the scene so that mary is killed by the government
anneliese: Not necessarily...this torture is non-physical.
camidon: The whole rock out of the area felt hollow. That seemed to set-p, though maybe it just needs another draft. I did want something else to happen to Mary. Maybe she could be trampled? Or as E suggested, hit by a bullet?
operator: for me, the most frightening part of torture is the thought of lasting damage
operator: pain by itself sucks but you can endure it
operator: that's why I wonder if purely psychological torture would be truly effective, when the sufferer knows it's not permanent
camidon: <gosh, now I can't even understand what I wrote!) The whole thrown rock hitting Mary on the head did not feel right to me.
Elizabeth: Plus, if it's conducted in a VR environment, it could be the kind of secret government facility that nobody knows about.
davek: physical or non-physical pain is pain and torture is torture.
Elizabeth: Torture that doesn't do any physical damage might be even harder to take...the pain goes on and on and you can't pass out or die to escape it.
Elizabeth: Which is what happens, eventually, with physical torture.
Elizabeth: The police could say that David's in police or government custody, and nobody outside knows what's actually happening to him.
camidon: I agree with Dave. I think the virtual torture angle is very appropriate after events at the prison in Iraq. By the current US's standards, virtual torture would be perfectly legal
Elizabeth: Or cares, if the media pumps up the "terrorist" angle enough.
operator: Iraq wasn't torture though, it was humiliation and mind games
camidon: And it could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on, etc
Elizabeth: He's a fundy terrorist, after all. The general public won't have much sympathy for him.
geclifford: (looks in dictionary for "fundy")
operator: (people are getting all huffy about humiliating terrorists, which I really can't understand, but anyhow)
Elizabeth: In most cases...but I recall some prisoners were subjected to electrical shocks and dog attacks.
operator: I hdn't heard that
Elizabeth: A few actually died of their injuries, if I recall correctly.
Elizabeth: "fundy" = slang for fundamentalist.
geclifford: oh
operator: terry?
operator: a fundy terry?
anneliese: I think that humiliation is a function of torture.
Elizabeth: Bwahahah, Eddy!
geclifford: i like those slang terms. maybe i'll use them
operator: a fundy terry with a widdle bomby
Elizabeth: Anneliese is right...especially if you're dealing with a culture where family/social honor is held in high value.
geclifford: i think that listening to rap music is torture
camidon: That's good. And funny, and double slang bonus.
Elizabeth: roflmao!
geclifford: widdle bomby, hehe
Elizabeth: Didn't US interrogators use country & western music as part of their Iraqi interrogations? Apparently the locals just hate it.
davek: My problem with the story is that it has no ending.
operator: oh those poor bastards!
geclifford: probably a keyword that the FBI searches for. this chat is probably being recorded
camidon: <==== agrees with Dave. Greg, what are your plans for the end?
operator: well, to flog the theme thing: the ending would reinforce the theme
geclifford: it has an ending, just a very bad one
anneliese: Geee...I wonder if I should post the chat log...hmmmm...
Elizabeth: After twenty-four hours of Toby Keith et al, you could get me to confess to most anything.
davek: But I will admit that a lot of what is published these days has no ending either.
Elizabeth: Sure. The federal inquiry will be great publicity.
camidon: In your mind. What was the current ending, and how do you want to make it not a "bad one"?
geclifford: i'm still not sure how i'm going to handle the end. i'm waiting for inspiration to strike me
camidon: There's our answer to new members!! Who wants to go on trial first!?!
davek: The story stops but I'm not sure that that is an end.
geclifford: hehe
Elizabeth: I do think there needs to be something like what you implied in this draft: either David realizes that there is no God, or he hallucinates God/Jesus telling him, "I said, thou shalt not kill. You're on your own."
geclifford: i was thinking about having him wake up in a white room full of technicians and realize he didn't die and go to heaven
camidon: BTW, Elizabeth did you ever get a chance to contact the NanoWrimo folks? and post something on there board?
Elizabeth: That would be good.
geclifford: but that might be too obvious
Elizabeth: I've signed up for NaNoWriMo, but I still need to ask about posting our info on their boards.
operator: if the theme is persecution creates terrorists, then the ending would be something that shows David is now a terrorist
camidon: I'd argue to write and ending with that idea in mind, and see how it feels.
operator: that's pretty boring tho
davek: Just post it. Remember, it is easier to ask forgiveness then permission.
anneliese: I like what Elizabeth said: David realizes that there is no God, or he hallucinates God/Jesus telling him, "I said, thou shalt not kill. You're on your own." It balances with the opening "Jesus stands for peace"
camidon: That's like the end scene from Brazil, kind of
Elizabeth: what if he realizes that he *is* a terrorist, and as such, has forfeited his ticket to heaven (I know I'm being flip here, but...)? That, for him, would be a serious, serious tragedy.
davek: I like that ending - persercution creates terrorists.
operator: it seems like he already knows that, though
operator: he has already recognized he screwed up
operator: now he wants to blame someone, or something
camidon: I like that idea, realizing he is a terroist, and mentally that's worse than any torture. Admittedly, I think that would be hard to pull off.
operator: or just strike out
geclifford: i tried to imply that he had regrets
Elizabeth: Perhaps a more physical realization, then, something like David hallucinating Jesus, talking about "Jesus stands for love, peace", and so forth, Jesus reminding him of "thou shalt not kill" and morphing into one of the interrogators.
geclifford: but didnt carry it too far
operator: I like that one
Elizabeth: It seemed to me like he had qualms, sometimes, about what he was doing, but he had managed to quash them.
camidon: Maybe you could use that "Jesus stands for peace" slogan more through the story, and that's what Dave latches onto at the end to suddenly realize he's f*cked up big time. Just an idea.
geclifford: my plan was for Mary to stand in as Jesus. it's be more emtional for him
operator: the hallucination thing fits with the VR torture
camidon: Maybe Mary could wear a "Jesus stands for peace" shirt
geclifford: hehe
Elizabeth: Maybe not, Greg. David rationalizes his acts by his faith, "defending Jesus". Mary is the person he loved the most, but he's not killing people in her name, even if her death was the impetus for his going over to terrorism.
camidon: in his hallucinations.
geclifford: might work
Elizabeth: What if Mary asks him about the people he's killed? Maybe appears with some of them...other children her age, mothers, people David would be less inclined to demonize.
davek: Maybe forget all the pain stuff and have the VR have him talk to god and realize his crimes. Then as he confesses you releave that the "vision" was the VR stuff.
Elizabeth: Ooh. That's another good suggestion, Dave.
operator: yeah... Dead Zone meets A Clockwork Orange!
geclifford: thats sort of what i have in mind, just wondering how to work it now
camidon: Imo, I don't like that thought. Pretending to talk to God I think would ruin the "feeling" of the story. I don't why I "feel" that, but I do.
operator: actually, if you hint or say early on that the gov'mint legalized VR torture, then that would still work and it could clear up the flashbacks
geclifford: thats why i use Mary to stand in for Jesus/God
operator: I don't think that's strong enough
anneliese: The question in my mind is: is the VR actually controlling, or inducing 'memories'
camidon: And I think that's the way to go, using Mary as God's voice.
geclifford: for him to talk directly to God just doesn't feel right to me
operator: he doesn't worship mary... er... hope not
Elizabeth: Well, she is named after the mother of Jesus.
operator: religious nuts do talk to God
operator: and they think God talks to them
davek: BUt does he answer?
camidon: But it needs to be written better with mary (either said then done, of course)
Elizabeth: And she is the person he's closest to, even after all these years.
geclifford: but he's not really a religious nut. he doesn't do it for god, he doesn't it for revenge as uses god as a cover
Elizabeth: I can see her, in the course of his torture/interrogation, morphing into God, or at least speaking for him.
geclifford: does it*
camidon: True, eddy, but for some reason, I didn't think David ever DID talk to God. I got the feeling he wanted to, but never did, and so in his mind, there's the itsy bitsy sliver of doubt (and maybe I';m totally wrong)
anneliese: I think Dave would be more comfortable if he thought Mary was speaking for god, not as god.
geclifford: go on, camidon, knock him down for me.
Elizabeth: He knows, deep down, that what he's doing is wrong--and probably the last thing his sweet little sister would have wanted for him--but he can't face that.
camidon: <wink, wink> do I get another $20?
geclifford: we'll talk about it
camidon: Seriosuly thought, i think Eddy has a good point, and it just depends if Dave was that kind of "fanatic" If the answer is yes, then i would argue talking to God would make more sense. If the answer is no, then he should never talk to god.
geclifford: i think i need to add a scene of david and his friends planning the attack
anneliese: why?
Elizabeth: I think Mary should, at least in his hallucinations, show him the error of his ways. Perhaps not verbally--maybe she shows up with some of his victims.
operator: well, thinking of the Christians I know, they do believe God watches over them
operator: so if David bombs someone, he knows God saw it
camidon: We are talking about the Dave in the story right, and not Dave K, right?
operator: he knows it was wrong
Elizabeth: I'm not sure we need to see the lead-up to the attack. The story is about what goes on inside of David more than the attack.
operator: oh... I thought they were the same?
geclifford: i just feel that the story is lacking one important scene, where all the conspirators are together.
operator: so... if StoryDave commits an abomination, he knows he is going to Hell, and he might see his God tell him so
operator: the wacko suicide bombers believe they are going straight to heaven by blowing up infidels
geclifford: true
operator: they believe they are being just
operator: Dave on the other hand, knows he is not
geclifford: but david is not a suicide bomber
geclifford: he doesn't quite have that mentality, that dedication
operator: well I'm using them as an extreme example
Elizabeth: Well, he may see himself as a Crusader...a "Christian soldier", doing battle against the forces of evil.
geclifford: i understand
geclifford: yes, more along those lines, elizabeth
anneliese: It seems that anyone who is a strong believer in something can do abominable things...did abortion clinic bombers think they would go to hell?
Elizabeth: If he believes that most of society is Godless, then he might also believe that he's bringing the wrath of God down upon them. Punishing them for their sinfulness and lack of belief.
Elizabeth: What Anneliese said.
operator: my point is, terrorists believe in their cause, so murder is justified, but it felt like David didn't feel that way
camidon: About the scene with David's conspirators: You could have him screaming out his conspirator's names in the VR torture, while some like Mary demands who he was working with.
operator: so what does that do to Dave?
camidon: I agree with you Eddy, on that point, about David not believing in the cause
operator: $20 -> Chris
geclifford: hehe
geclifford: gimme back my money
Elizabeth: lol!
davek: I couldn't even try to think about what a terrorist thinks.
operator: so... if that's the underlying motivation, poor David would be awfully torn and twisted
camidon: I'm cashing in tonight!
davek: I think at that point he has made up his mind and justified it.
geclifford: he is, but maybe i don't show it enough
operator: I hate to try... but as writers we are supposed to understand our villains
Elizabeth: But I think that if David really doesn't quite believe in the rightness of what he's doing, he'd do something about it...maybe leak names/information to the authorities...try to warn bystanders...even unconsciously sabotage the bombs.
operator: so thinking as a terrorist, I believe murder of innocents is justified so long as it furthers my cause
Elizabeth: Kind of like the criminal who, after evading the law for several crimes, "screws up" in a way he hasn't before. Just can't do it anymore.
davek: OK, and no more story characters named -David. I get confused.
anneliese: I thought he believe in the 'rightness' of what he was doing.
Elizabeth: lol!
operator: I can kill people so long as I don't eat pork or drink caffeine Sticking out tongue
geclifford: lol, dave
camidon: I don't know. I think there is a pang of doubt in David's mind abot what he is doing. But at a certain point he gets swept up in the events. The small portion that wants to stop the attack is not strong enough too.
davek: You have to kill the right people.
Elizabeth: This has been a terrific chat...but I need to sign off. I've got an interview tomorrow that I still have to prep for, and my crazy dog is howling at the office window.
operator: next villain should be named Chris
geclifford: hehe
anneliese: lol
camidon: We can take it, can't we Chris?
anneliese: Good luck with the interview, Elizabeth.
operator: sure Chris
Elizabeth: Me next! Me next!
davek: Yeah, good luck.
camidon: hehe
geclifford: latrer, elizabeth
operator: ahhh the voices the voices turn them off turn them off
Elizabeth: Thanks...Greg, I'll send a critique later, if you want...
camidon: Yep, Good luck, Elizabeth.
operator: nite
Elizabeth: It's an excellent story. Should be salable with a tune-up or two.
geclifford: thats ok, u did a pretty good job here
Elizabeth: Good night, all!
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
anneliese: Yes, I plan to send out some's been kind of crazy the past couple of weeks.
anneliese: So I am behind.
geclifford: this chat has been more informative than the critiques i think
camidon: I agree with the salable comment. The key word being <should>
anneliese: Very good chat.
geclifford: thanks. i was hoping i could sell this. beer is running low
davek: Yeah, time to go. See you all next time. Bye.
geclifford: later
camidon: The story ideas are strong. It's just fine tuning the execurtion <pun intended>
anneliese: Niters,
camidon: Nite, Dave
System: davek left us (snif).
camidon: Damn, another typo. Execution!!
geclifford: if i could just figure out how to nail the ending. its going to require some real finesse writing
anneliese: I know you can do it!
operator: saleable upon execution, means you get a kill fee??
camidon: That's the worst kind of writing. I'm much better when I can just slam my head on the keyboard--the brute force approach.
operator: I like the challenge of writing a slick ending
camidon: Any payment's better than nothing!
operator: well
geclifford: i joined another writing group. its huge
camidon: Anneliese, Dave and I were talking a while back about setting up another challenge
operator: not slick exactly, I mean "clever" or "twisted" or whatever
geclifford: there are so many published writers in it i feel really small
anneliese: Challenge?
operator: what group? is it real or virtual?
camidon: You can always come back to us when you need to feel better! :biggrin:
camidon: Muse challenge, the writing thing we did
geclifford: online writing group. it used to be sponsored by Del Rey. costs $49 to join for a year
anneliese: What did you have in mind?
camidon: ouch, there's that beer money. But they are published...
camidon: We were going to discuss it tonight, but forgot. Maybe next week then we'll set something up.
operator: by challenge I mean the challenge of making something original and clever, like a "Luke I'm your father" kind of ending
geclifford: i'm not leaving this group, just thought i'd double dip
anneliese: Double-dipping can be good.
operator: Zoetrope has one too, I think
geclifford: yes
camidon: I know, I meant you can hang out with us when you need an ego boost! You can relate all their useful hints and tips, right?
operator: it's more for literary types tho
anneliese: And I remember paying more than that to join the Writers Club, way back when.
operator: Critters is good but it felt too mechanical to me
geclifford: they have a very interesting system. all reading and critiquing is done on their website. the site automatically keeps track of your submissions and critiques.
anneliese: Keep us posted on how the other group works out, Greg, I remember back when it was sponsored by Del Ray, there was some criticism of it.
operator: hey I joined the Writers Digest Book Club
camidon: Maybe we should set up a short writing challenge this week, Anneliese, seeing as NanoWriMo is starting on the first. Maybe some kind of quick warm up for this week, done by next Monday?
operator: I can review a bunch of WD books
operator: the first one I got was Agents Editors and You... very good but lacking in a couple of areas
operator: I'm now working on The marshall Plan to Getting your Book Published
anneliese: If you have an idea, CM, why don't you send it out in the am?
geclifford: first step: write a book
anneliese: I don't know, eddy, those topics sound pretty engrossing.
camidon: That's the thing, I don't have a great idea, Anneliese. I was thinking a Nanofiction story, like write a story in 100 words or something.
operator: 100 words = poem !
anneliese: Oooh, that could be a tough one!
operator: I don't think I could get a story in under 10k words
camidon: Any idea, yourself? If we decide on something, I will send it out in the morning.
operator: well, not many
anneliese: How about just a great opening paragraph, one with a terrific hook?
camidon: I guess a 100 word story is a subsection of Flash fiction.
anneliese: Or, in honor of Halloween, a spooky opening.
geclifford: i like the hook idea
camidon: Hey, that's good, like the Grabber contest on Ralans.
operator: we could also do "worst of", e.g. worst openings, worst endings
operator: kind of, what not to do
camidon: Okay, so a 100 word max opening paragraph, spooky theme for Halloween optional
anneliese: Works for me!
anneliese: Of course, I'm begining to panic about NaNoWriMo.
camidon: I like that idea too, Eddy. We'll have to keep that for later use. Okay, then, I'll send an email out about it tomrrow morning.
anneliese: Haven't a clue what I'm going to write.
geclifford: whats that?
operator: OhNoCantWriteNoMo
anneliese: lol
geclifford: well, i gotta return to my writing. cya folks
anneliese: Niters, great chat, everyone.
operator: me too
anneliese: I've gotta turn in as well.
camidon: Nite, Greg. Nice to be able to chat with you.
operator: l8r all
geclifford: was nice to have a nite off
geclifford: bye all
camidon: gnight all.