[anneliese] Hi CM!

[camidon] good evening

[anneliese] Is your summer winding down?

[anneliese] Hi Dave!

[DaveK] Hi guys

[camidon] still going strong here in MI

[Elizabeth] hi guys!

[camidon] I miss Mountain Time

[DaveK] Hi Elizabeth

[Elizabeth] summer's going way too strong here. 101 degrees this afternoon.

[anneliese] Hi Elizabeth!

[camidon] Evening, dave, Elizabeth

[anneliese] Yuck! We were able to turn off the ac tonight.

[DaveK] We hit about 84 her in FC

[Elizabeth] We might be able to do that in November.

[anneliese] I think my body wants to live on mountain time, CM, but taint happenin.

[Elizabeth] lol!

[camidon] lol

[camidon] It was only in the 60s here.

[Elizabeth] now I'm *really* jealous.

[anneliese] 80s here. Going to 60 tonight.

[camidon] Very pleasant--we'll see how I feel in January though

[anneliese] Hi Juanita!

[Juanita] Hi everyone

[Elizabeth] Mid-80s will probably be our low, Anneliese. Too humid for the temp to go down much.

[DaveK] Hi Juanita

[Elizabeth] hi Juanita!

[camidon] Hello

[anneliese] Hi Bob!

[bobfri] hi

[camidon] Evening Bob

[DaveK] Hi Bob, Now we've got a,b,c,d,e, and j. Juanita has to change her name to Fred.

[Elizabeth] hi Bob! How are you?

[bobfri] good evening

[bobfri] or floridaian

[Juanita] Fred it is.

[anneliese] LOL Dave!

[bobfri] i want to change my name to mickey

[Juanita] It's a little too cool here for floridaian

[DaveK] Has to start with B

[camidon] wow, that's pretty weird

[anneliese] Can I be goofy?

[Elizabeth] lol!

[bobfri] beetlejuice

[camidon] No, no, Anneliese, it's MAY I be goofy

[Elizabeth] brb, husband just got home.

[Juanita] when aren't we goofy?

[Juanita] g.a.

[DaveK] Goofy is not unique enough in this group.

[bobfri] I prefer pluto

[camidon] And don't our chats usually drift into that realm?

[anneliese] OK, well, how about I be anaconda, if you must be goofy.

[anneliese] CM! Us??? Goofy!?!?!?!?

[bobfri] Can I be Donald instead of Mickey?

[Juanita] I think D is taken

[camidon] Yeah, I know, Anneliese. We're just so darn stuffy it's almost frightening.

[bobfri] Can't we have two D's?

[camidon] It might do us some good to livening things up with a sprinkling of wackiness and a dash of daubachery

[camidon] Ok, I've let my sarcasm run its course for the night. What next?

[Juanita] Maybe a chat?

[Juanita] g?

[bobfri] what happened to the sink hole stuff?

[anneliese] I don't know, CM, we do have Juanita's story to discuss...very serious matters, you know...

[DaveK] 'bout what?

[Juanita] About writing, I meant.

[Juanita] Oh Yes!!!! definitely MY

[Juanita] ORY

[Juanita] STORY. got fat fingers

[DaveK] Well, your grammer and spelling seem a bit off tonight.

[camidon] Oh, yes, discussing writing is always good, we are a bunch of writers, write?

[camidon] lol

[anneliese] So, Juanita, wanna start?

[DaveK] But are we right writers?

[Juanita] I never did get a sink hole story done. Just the first part. A sinkhole time and place

[camidon] Do you have any comments before we discuss your story, Juanita?

[bobfri] unless any of us is a lefty

[anneliese] You might still have time to jam out a sinkhole story..

[anneliese] <==lefty

[Juanita] As for Geoff's story, I think this chap has fewer troubles.

[DaveK] I never could get into the dance contest thing.

[Juanita] I'm not sure if that is because I'm more into the story and people are caught up in it or if I''m just past those beginning glitches

[Juanita] I thought the dance would be a novel form of extortionism

[Juanita] extortion? It grew out of the sequel to this novel, which I wrote first, of course

[anneliese] I thought the writing was very smooth...and did I detect a chat-inspired scene in zero g?

[Elizabeth] sorry, will be back in a little while, some house stuff has come up. :::sigh:::

[DaveK] Who is extorting who?

[Juanita] You did. I also used CM's idea for a music gorup name

[Juanita] Chin extorting Geoff

[bogwitch64] hi all

[anneliese] Hi Terri!

[DaveK] But Geoff is already doing Chin's dirty work.

[bobfri] hi Terri

[Juanita] I'm working on ANOTHER rewrite of Chap one

[Juanita] Hi Terri

[DaveK] Hi Terri

[bogwitch64] I'm here but I'm not here because I'm on the phone with my daughter in California. Haven't spoken to her in a few days. I'll be reading along.

[anneliese] Juanita, have you completed the whole novel?

[Juanita] Yes. Iusually finish the novel before putting any out for crit because once I'm done I always have to fix the beginning

[anneliese] How many chapters total (just curious)

[Juanita] I thought I'd submit up to the first major plot twist, then send in the second one and a bit after it.

[Juanita] Um, don't really remember. High 20s, I think

[anneliese] Sorry. I'm confused. So, you'll keep submitting until the first plot twist, then resend Ch. 1?

[Juanita] No. then skip the middle and send the second major plot twist

[Juanita] That way I get comments without making you all read the whole thing

[bobfri] why skip the middle

[anneliese] Will that confuse those of us easily befuddled by skipping part of the story?

[Juanita] It would take two years to send it all

[camidon] Here's my quick and dirty two sense about this later chapter. This chapter suddenly zooms along way to fast. In many previous chapters, nothing really happens except for home life, dancing, and a few interesing details, but suddenly we have a shoplifing scene, a meetup in an arena, and G and T...

[Juanita] possible :(

[DaveK] Given that I'm confused already

[camidon] ...making rounds to shady places and shady characters. This just kind of blows up in Chapter Six, a little too fast. <end trasmission>

[Juanita] Arrrgh too slow, then too fast. Some day I'll get it right.

[Juanita] Maybe I need to put some of this chap in an earlier one

[camidon] Juanita, I'd send along a few more chapters, then lobby a few of us to read the enitre manuscript, a novel exchange for feedback so to speak.

[anneliese] I liked this chapter in that it moved very fast and also finally showed the gang side of the MCs. I think this could be stronger as the first chapter,

[anneliese] then the first chapter following this one.

[camidon] Bingo, Juanita. Not a lot needs to come earlier, but some.

[anneliese] I'd be happy to read the whole novel...later in the year, say October-November.

[camidon] When I have more time in the winter, i'd be willing to swap manuscripts for feedback. Probably a few others would too.

[camidon] (Anneliese, I see we're already swallowing up our Nano time this year? ;)

[anneliese] (I'm thinking of doing it again...is anyone else?)

[bobfri] huh

[camidon] It all depends how you want to construct the novel, Juanita, whether you start fast-paced with all of this happening, or build it up little by little. Presently, you've written the latter, which is fine, but each previous chapter should be building to Chapter 6 and I don't yet feel they do.

[anneliese] Nanowrimo

[DaveK] I'm thinking about it. If I'm not working full time.

[anneliese] Juanita, how many more chapters before the plot twist?

[bobfri] I've got to get going. Good night.

[camidon] (I'm up for November pain and punishment agin. It's too much fun to avoid)

[anneliese] Juanita, do you have any questions for us?

[camidon] Did we lose Juanita?

[anneliese] You were lost, but now your found!

[anneliese] you're

[Juanita] I'm back please give me a minute to catch up reading

[anneliese] (my typing is terrible tonight)

[Juanita] Yes. I had to disconnect and redial -up. Nothing was workkiing

[Juanita] I like the idea of swapping MSes . I began on the slow side because there are quite a few characters in this book

[Juanita] I tried to introduce them in bits rather than the five major ones plus all hte gang and familiy

[Juanita] My current version of Chap one is putting in a section with Geoff taking his sister to the low gravity market by the docks

[camidon] Character wise, Juanita, I think you do an excellent job of introducing most of them, Trevor and Geoff, Chin and Lui, Geoff's family are all well done.

[Juanita] The intention of that is to establish their relationship and, as someone suggested, show Geoff in a stronger role besides with chin and Lui

[camidon] It's the gang I got lost because I couldn't recall any of those names before, and I was floundering for a mental picture of the gang. These characters just need to be hinted at early, not necessarily all together as a gang, but one by one we should see most of the gang briefly before the events...

[camidon] of Chapter 6

[Juanita] You did meet them briefly. I understand it's hard to remember month to month

[camidon] I think that's a great idea for Chapter 1, Juanita.

[camidon] I thought that might have been the case...

[Juanita] Thanks. these chats are full of good ideas. I even remember some of them

[camidon] Then ignore myprevious statement. (Someone else, please jump in before I incriminate myself further!)

[Juanita] BAck to a previous question.

[anneliese] (I'm not ignoring you all, just having trouble forming lucid thoughts)

[Elizabeth] bak

[Juanita] since major plottwists have to be at 25 and 75 percent of the book, they are in chaps 8 and 23

[anneliese] wb, Elizabeth!

[bogwitch64] still on phone...reading

[anneliese] wb Bob!

[Juanita] welcome, both

[Elizabeth] glad to see you back, Bob.

[bobfri] just have a few minutes wanted to drop back in

[anneliese] Are you counting those by chapter number or word count (plot twists)

[Juanita] happy to have you here

[anneliese] (I'm really having a hard time with basic sentence structure tonight)

[Juanita] Ummmmm by number of pages, with 250 words/page

[Juanita] If plot twist one falls on page 100, the second one goes on page 300 and the final page of the book is page 400

[anneliese] Works for me.

[bobfri] that seems long for me

[Juanita] You mean too long a novel? that's 100,000 words

[anneliese] I guess I am struggling with where the plot is going at this point in the story...

[bobfri] too long between twists

[Elizabeth] a lot did happen in this chapter...I'm wondering where the drug run and the meeting with the pimp figure in the larger story.

[anneliese] I'm really lousy at understanding plot, so take this with a cuppa salt...

[Juanita] right now some SF and Fantasy publishers arent looking at anything less than 120,000

[Elizabeth] Does the pimp show up later on?

[Juanita] Okay, Bob. Sorry. That's only major twists. There should be other stuff in between.

[bobfri] cool

[Juanita] No, Elizabeht, he doesn't, but I do have a place where Geoff wonders if he should call him

[Elizabeth] Or the other gang members? Because, as good and atmospheric as the 'hands' scene was, I'm not sure how it advances the story.

[DaveK] I usually don't look at anything over that.

[Elizabeth] We already know that Geoff has wicked fast reflexes...

[Juanita] Admitting that plot is my really weak point...

[Juanita] Anything over what, Dave?

[Elizabeth] I thought that the introduction of the pimp might be a foreshadowing of just how deep Geoff is getting into the underworld.

[Elizabeth] Especially if he contemplates calling the pimp later.

[DaveK] Over 100,000 words, say 400 pages. I like short stuff.

[Elizabeth] I'm waiting, perhaps a little too anxiously, for something to go wrong with one of Geoff's criminal assignments.

[Elizabeth] Something to up the ante, and the suspense, a little bit.

[anneliese] So am I.

[Juanita] the whole thing in this book is Geoff gets blackmailed into dancing, Geoff finds out it won't end with the competition, Geoff figures out how to get free of Chin and Lui

[Juanita] Chap 8 and 9 someone else tries to leave the Organization (sorry CM, I haven't come up with another name) and gets killed.

[camidon] I agree with E and A

[Elizabeth] So this might be a good opportunity to show that conflict...one of the drug drops gets ugly, for example, and Geoff wonders how much longer he wants to do this.

[Elizabeth] My favorite part of this chapter was actually the end, where Trevor's looking out for Geoff...there's some real emotional potential here.

[Juanita] Geoff makes a shoplifting mistake and winds up in jail in chap 19

[camidon] That's why I liked the end of Chapter 5; it seemed to "up the ante", but now I'm not so sure it did.

[Elizabeth] A chance for Geoff to realize, or even start to realize, how good a friend Trevor is,

[Elizabeth] and to hate Chin and Lui for beating the poor kid up.

[Elizabeth] Or hate himself for allowing it to happen.

[DaveK] Kill someone in chapter one and make Geoff the replacement.

[Elizabeth] There's a definite chink in Geoff's emotional armor when he realizes that Trevor stayed with him until they got to his stop.

[Juanita] food for thought

[Elizabeth] A moment of vulnerability (even if Geoff can't quite admit it).

[Juanita] Glad it showed

[Elizabeth] The first realization, perhaps, that even a smart, fast teenage boy like himself isn't bulletproof.

[Elizabeth] Because they do tend to think they're invulnerable. :)

[bobfri] that's for sure

[camidon] I agree with E, that sums up my feeling at the end of C6

[Elizabeth] And Geoff is starting, in a way, to come up against his physical limitations when he dances.

[Elizabeth] Which, IMO, would make him hate Chin and Lui even more. He's used to being the best, or really damned good, at physical activities.

[Elizabeth] Pardon the language. :)

[Juanita] He is. I'm not sure I've captured that particulare element. Hadn't even thought about it in those terms. Thanks

[Elizabeth] The pressures should be building up on him--his fears for his own future and safety, his loyalty to Trevor and his family, his disgust with certain elements of the underworld--

[bobfri] now I have to say good night

[Elizabeth] he should be approaching the point where he says, at least to himself, "To hell with Chin and Lui. I gotta get out of this. Now how?"

[Elizabeth] I understand it'll take a while for him to reach that point, but we should see the pressure building.

[Juanita] It is that itme, isn't it?

[Elizabeth] 'fraid so.

[Elizabeth] Hope I haven't run on too long.

[anneliese] <==agrees with Elizabeth. He has every reason to be feeling plenty of emotions that lead to change, but I'm not seeing evidence yet...and I wanted to.

[Elizabeth] And that some of my ramblings are useful. You have a lot of the elements in place, Juanita. You need to amplify them.

[Elizabeth] Get the plot points and personality points in phase and use them like a laser.

[camidon] Got to go, gang. Thanks for the pleasant chat. Really, start thinking about Nano <nano, nano, nano, nano, nano>

[Juanita] Yes, useful ramblings. Thanks

[Elizabeth] Because the individual points are solid.

[DaveK] Elizabeth, do we get the sinkhole stories today?

[Juanita] Thank you all for your input.

[Elizabeth] no no Nano!

[Elizabeth] Yes, today we get sinkhole.

[Elizabeth] Bleah! What a phrase!

[camidon] gnight all

[anneliese] Thanks for coming.

[DaveK] If I'm not making money I'll be there.- nano

[Elizabeth] goodnight CM!