System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese sez to all: Hi Dave!
davek sez to all: Hi, Anneliese.
anneliese sez to all: Could be a small group tonight.
davek sez to all: It's still early.
anneliese sez to all: Yes, I don't expect anyone to be on time!
anneliese sez to all: brb, got to get my copy of eddy's sub.
davek sez to all: HI Chris. Did you finally get my e-mail?
davek sez to all: I kept typo'ing your address.
camidon sez to all: hello, all
camidon sez to all: just got it a minute ago
camidon sez to all: I think Wed, is the best day for me
davek sez to all: OK that would be the 5th. Same place?
anneliese sez to all: Hi CM!
camidon sez to all: yep, the fifth. I'm open to new places, though for sake of ease, that place works too. Do you have a preference?
camidon sez to all: hi Anneliese!
davek sez to all: No, I don't get to it much so I'm not tired of it.
camidon sez to all: Let's just go there again. It worked fine for me.
camidon sez to all: How's 11? An hour earlier this time?
davek sez to all: OK, noon? Or ?
davek sez to all: OK, noon? Or ?
davek sez to all: OK 11.
camidon sez to all: lastly then, do you want to meet at Starbucks, or just at the Deli place/
davek sez to all: Meet at Starbucks and walk over.
camidon sez to all: Sounds great to me. I look forward to it
davek sez to all: Hey Anneliese, you can join us. Going to be in Fort COllins next Wed?
System: eddycurrents joined us. Cheers!
anneliese sez to all: Hi Eddy!
eddycurrents sez to all: bonsoir
anneliese sez to all: Wish I could...my niece is graduating from there.
camidon sez to all:
eddycurrents sez to all: hey I didn't get a history this time
eddycurrents sez to all: what y'all talking about?
camidon sez to all: Dave and I are getting together in Fort Collins, CO for lunch
eddycurrents sez to all: cool
eddycurrents sez to all: go spelunking after?
camidon sez to all: Any chance you'll be in the state?
anneliese sez to all: I have never gotten a history
camidon sez to all: Nah, I don't think Dave goes in for that But I am going on the 7th
camidon sez to all: whoops
davek sez to all: I haven't been caving since college.
camidon sez to all: drat, I mistyped it again. Caving for me =
davek sez to all: I've only been in some PA caves. Small wet things to what they have out here.
eddycurrents sez to all: I went scuba diving in a couple
camidon sez to all: cave diving, Eddy? really?
davek sez to all: WHere?
eddycurrents sez to all: technically it was cavern diving, we were never more than 100 ft from an entrance
eddycurrents sez to all: in Yucatan, cenote diving
davek sez to all: Ocean or inland cave?
camidon sez to all: Ah, I see, but I'm impressed. That takes some guts, even a short way in. Statistically speaking, cave diving is the most dangerous thing tou can do on the face of the planet.
eddycurrents sez to all: spectacular diving, they were once coral reefs, then above ground caves, so they have fossilized reef and underwater stalactites/mites
camidon sez to all: Anneliese (we don't want to exclude you in this conversation), I got to say, please, please, please, let's keep the critique schedule updated on the webpage!
anneliese sez to all: Oops, sorry. I've been trying to do the message board, and totally forgot to do that one.
davek sez to all: OK, back to the story. Eddy, I found a reference to how to quote notes. It goes like:
camidon sez to all: That sounds pretty cool, then again, imo, caves are really cool, seeing as I willing to spend a weekend underground
anneliese sez to all: I ought to be able to do it tomorrow.
davek sez to all: The note read: "text of note."
camidon sez to all: Thank, you, thank you, thank you. <ok, Dave's right, story time>
anneliese sez to all: Well, shall we begin, then?
anneliese sez to all: Since it is your sub, Eddy, do you have anything you'd like to say about it, or ask us first?
eddycurrents sez to all: like I said in the submission
eddycurrents sez to all: the ending... it seemed like a good idea at the time but after I said nah
eddycurrents sez to all: so maybe
davek sez to all: It is hard to be surprising and not so brief as to seem like you just quit.
eddycurrents sez to all: the theme was... you are responsible for your actions
eddycurrents sez to all: and he was to much of a coward to face them, so he quit
anneliese sez to all: I had two thoughts about the ending: you set it up well, and, it was predictable, and (#3) I was happy that he died... didn't like him much anyway.
eddycurrents sez to all: too
eddycurrents sez to all: well you were supposed to pity him a little
eddycurrents sez to all: just a regular guy doing his job
eddycurrents sez to all: but a little drunk on power
anneliese sez to all: I felt like I ought to pity him, but I couldn't, because he was to self-centered.
camidon sez to all: To a point I did, but there comes a time, when your character needs to stand up to someone, please anyone
eddycurrents sez to all: that's interesting
camidon sez to all: By the end, the little pity I did feel, had turned into disgust
anneliese sez to all: Of course, it's been a really tough couple of weeks, and that has colored everything in my life, so it may have nothing to do with the story.
camidon sez to all: and therefore I had lost touch with the story
eddycurrents sez to all: good
eddycurrents sez to all: oh
eddycurrents sez to all: well that's not good
anneliese sez to all: CM, you put it exactly as I felt it.
camidon sez to all: <very amusing series of responses, Eddy...>
davek sez to all: I don't think there was time to build up empathy for him.
camidon sez to all: well that's good, Anneliese, I was just thinking how Bruce managed to some up my critique in a few lines, rather than a few pages
camidon sez to all: "sum up" rather
anneliese sez to all: I liked the foreshadowing...the view out the window and the ignored inbox.
eddycurrents sez to all: hehe
eddycurrents sez to all: the setup
eddycurrents sez to all: so I was thinking
camidon sez to all: Those points were well done, the bird on the updraft, etc
eddycurrents sez to all: somehow the spirit won't let him die
eddycurrents sez to all: so he tries to jump but somehow can't, then he has to deal with things
camidon sez to all: But it doesn't make me like the ending or the character anymore
camidon sez to all: Good possibility
eddycurrents sez to all: but how would anyone deal with that?
eddycurrents sez to all: then I thought
eddycurrents sez to all: it could be the whole dream thing, and he has the choice to put things back the way they were, but that's worse
eddycurrents sez to all: waaaaay too cliche
camidon sez to all: Definitely a NO on the dream aspect.
anneliese sez to all: As long as you're going to wipe everyone out, I think his action of attonement is appropriate.
davek sez to all: Yes, no to the dream.
camidon sez to all: Eddy, do you any idea Who, or What, or Why these voices occur?
eddycurrents sez to all: the spirit idea was, he always spoke with benign spirits who really had no influence on his life
anneliese sez to all: As we seem to be agreeing, we wanted to pity him at the beginning, but by the end, he's a real looser.
eddycurrents sez to all: but this one time, a malevolent one gets in
eddycurrents sez to all: and he takes advantage without really thinking about it
anneliese sez to all: To me, it seemed like a classic set-up that the devil would use to gain one's confidence.
eddycurrents sez to all: then of course things get out of control
davek sez to all: How about the argument that Jerry didn't kill the people the spirits did. Whaen they object he says - Kill me.
eddycurrents sez to all: what do you mean?
davek sez to all: That was not too clear. Did you get it?
camidon sez to all: I think it's important to totally understand what and who and why these voices occur. Not so much the reader, but the author.
davek sez to all: He has an argument with the spirits about who was responsible. To prove if it was Jerry or the spirts he confronts the spirts withthe request to kill himself.
camidon sez to all: In that manner, you can create approiate respones by the Jerry, and fill the stroywith an underlying structure. Hmmm... I'm not sure I'm making much sense. It may be the voices in MY head...
eddycurrents sez to all: dave... I like that
camidon sez to all: Now that's a good possibility to explore
davek sez to all: But does he die?
eddycurrents sez to all: he tells the spirit to kill him, to prove he exists so he knows he isn't crazy
eddycurrents sez to all: yeah he dies
davek sez to all: If he dies then he was responsible.
anneliese sez to all: To me, I liked jumping out of the window...it was something he came up with, without the spirits suggesting it.
camidon sez to all: That has a much greater potential for the ending, then simple suicide. And also, he final stands up to someone
anneliese sez to all: Good point.
eddycurrents sez to all: good one chris
camidon sez to all: And who better to stand up to then himself?
camidon sez to all: If you can't stand up to yourself, you're certainly not going to stand up to anyone else
davek sez to all: Has anyone seen "Secret Window?" It has an author going mad. It fits in with this discussion on a couple of levels.
eddycurrents sez to all: this is getting reaaaally metaphorical
camidon sez to all: Tried to see it, but it never came to the sticks of CO
davek sez to all: You started it Eddy.
camidon sez to all: I blame the metaphorical on Kafka
eddycurrents sez to all: I'm just a conduit, the spirits speak through me
davek sez to all: Someday I'll read Kafka.
anneliese sez to all: lol, Eddy
eddycurrents sez to all: you are all jealous because the voices only talk to me
davek sez to all: All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
davek sez to all: What is it with me and crazy writers today.
camidon sez to all: To be frank, though, Eddy when i read Downsized, i just don't think there's enough to ever make it marketable. I don't know if if will ever be more than a satire of corporate life. The challenge is to make a story like this good enough for market. The question then, is the time input worth the output? Or should you work on other things insead?
davek sez to all: But you might scare one manager and save one job from going to India.
camidon sez to all: As you mentioned, you showed this to an office friend who got a big kick out of it? Can a story like this ever be more than that watercooler joke? Again, that's the quandry.
anneliese sez to all: I think the story has potential, but agree with CM, that it has to go somewhere further.
eddycurrents sez to all: well it wasn't supposed to be funny
davek sez to all: Make it less about downsizing and more about the internal conflict. Make it less obvious that the deaths are supernatural.
camidon sez to all: I'm not trying to trash the story, or your writing, Eddy, I've just stating what I feel about the story. This what I go through every time I decide whether to rewrite a story
eddycurrents sez to all: the joke was, his name is Doug and we used to go for coffee
eddycurrents sez to all: so I threw that in there
eddycurrents sez to all: thing is
anneliese sez to all: Or make the deaths even more obviously supernatural to everyone.
eddycurrents sez to all: when I write something, I get into it, polish it, then let it be
eddycurrents sez to all: so I don't like to change things too much
eddycurrents sez to all: I can change endings tho
eddycurrents sez to all: so yeah, at some point it's time to move on if it isn't working
davek sez to all: So the question is more supernatural or less?
camidon sez to all: That might be the way to go, either more towards the supernatural, or more towards the office, but not in between. Either the killings are supernatural or they are not
camidon sez to all: looks like we're on the same page.
eddycurrents sez to all: they are
davek sez to all: But you don't have to tell the reader.
anneliese sez to all: What if someone suddenly sprouts purple puss and explodes...what happens then?
camidon sez to all:
eddycurrents sez to all: has this happened to you?
anneliese sez to all: No only does the mc know that he is responsible, but coworkers have to believe that something strange is going on. It changes some of the dynamics.
anneliese sez to all: Happens all the time, eddy.
camidon sez to all: Funny, very funny, though i think ultimately that would hurt the story
camidon sez to all: Maybe the feeling you need to go for is: The Sixth Sense. realistic but more scary then fun.
anneliese sez to all: I don't think the story should be made absurd, but a subtle exploration/panic might add some uniqueness.
camidon sez to all: I think I would agree with that
davek sez to all: Eddy, do you plot the story to the end or start it and let it go?
eddycurrents sez to all: the latter
eddycurrents sez to all: I usually know how it's going to end, just not how to get there
camidon sez to all: sorry, program crashed. Did I ever leave?
davek sez to all: You're listed twice on my screen.
davek sez to all: Now just once.
anneliese sez to all: Just once here.
camidon sez to all: I guess my split personality is finally coming to life
eddycurrents sez to all: you are half the man you used to be
anneliese sez to all: You crashed, but no one entered/left this time.
camidon sez to all: Did I miss any great intique?
eddycurrents sez to all: or is that two halves?
anneliese sez to all: Not really.
camidon sez to all: intriqued, that is; didn't think so
davek sez to all: I just remembered an old joke. You can always get off work by telling the boss that the voices in your head are telling you to go home and clean your guns.
camidon sez to all: oh gosh, I give up trying to spell intrigue
camidon sez to all: wait, I think I got it
eddycurrents sez to all: inn treague
anneliese sez to all: You guys getting punchy? It's not even that late where you are!
camidon sez to all: I'm never very sane. I blame the cow manure in the air
camidon sez to all: Well, any other thoughts on Eddy's story? Any other questions for us Eddy?
anneliese sez to all: lol. And I must be nutty because I like the smell of cow manure in the air...in small doses.
camidon sez to all: Btw, Dave, I read "what I didn't see", and replied about three times on the bboard
anneliese sez to all: Thanks, CM, obviously, I'm losing it.
davek sez to all: CHris, I saw one of them.
camidon sez to all: nonsense, Anneliese, to be in a writing group means you never had it!
anneliese sez to all: lol
anneliese sez to all: Yes, Eddy, anything you'd like to add/ask as we wrap up?
eddycurrents sez to all: nope, thanks all for your comments, I can play with the ending
davek sez to all: Or it can play with you
eddycurrents sez to all: the voices are telling me to say good night
eddycurrents sez to all: oh wait, that was my wife
camidon sez to all: Anneliese, though Mike Marsh has been awol the last few weeks, we emailed a little bit. He/I want to have a chat night dedicated to discussing the use/uses of AOL
davek sez to all: My stories often bounce me around like a ball.
camidon sez to all: In his words, he thinks SFWW can only grow so much while tethered to AOL
anneliese sez to all: Sure, CM, do you have a time/date in mind?
eddycurrents sez to all: he still pissed at me?
camidon sez to all: I would suggest, next week, but since my story is coming up...
davek sez to all: We're less tethered than we used to be.
eddycurrents sez to all: he won't accept my emails
camidon sez to all: He's over it. I talked to him a bunch after that. He's been into his writing and stepped a way from the group for a moment
eddycurrents sez to all: I apologized several ways, tried to explain things, he took them all wrong
eddycurrents sez to all: ok
anneliese sez to all: I think Bruce has the non-aol slot after you, and he is not interested in a story chat.
camidon sez to all: He was having a rough few weeks, and he failed to see the humor
anneliese sez to all: I think your apologies were sufficient, eddy.
davek sez to all: I've been there Eddy. Sometimes it is hard to clear up a problem except face-to-face.
camidon sez to all: I wonder why Bruce isn't more into the bboard and the chats. He's such an active writer.
anneliese sez to all: testing...
anneliese sez to all: My screen went blank.
eddycurrents sez to all: hi Anneliese
eddycurrents sez to all: you logged out for a sec
camidon sez to all: I wonder why Bruce isn't more into the bboard and the chats. He's such an active writer. I guess its like older scifi writers and there typewriters
davek sez to all: Wait a minute.
anneliese sez to all: Had to restart to get my window back.
eddycurrents sez to all: Juanita tunes in from time to time
camidon sez to all: Anneliese, let's plan to have that AOL usefulness chat the week of Bruce's slot
camidon sez to all: unless a better topic arises
anneliese sez to all: Sounds good to me. I'll post it on the web page and message board.
camidon sez to all: btw, anneliese, did you say you'd be "in the air" during this chat?
davek sez to all: I didn't mean that literaly.
anneliese sez to all: Yes, I was scheduled to go to San Francisco for a class, but it was cancelled.
camidon sez to all: huh? Dave, Eddy? Your recent lines befuddle me
eddycurrents sez to all: we cast the spell of confusion
davek sez to all: Scrolling wasn't working so I said "Wait a minute" and noting was happening.
eddycurrents sez to all: mind you, Dave got me too
eddycurrents sez to all: ah
eddycurrents sez to all: sometimes scrolling gets stuck for a few seconds
camidon sez to all: lol. Looks like our machines/programing are rebeling. I think they want to unionize
eddycurrents sez to all: for this chat, my scrolling isn't working, the lines keep going off the bottom of the screen, so I have to keep moving the slider
camidon sez to all: Hmm, actually, that's an interesting idea: sentient computers/programs unionizing
anneliese sez to all: Ditto for me. Scrolling hasn't worked in weeks. But it did once upon a time.
eddycurrents sez to all: and they go crazy and become self aware and launch missiles against the Russians to cause a global war to wipe out their greatest threat -- the humans!
anneliese sez to all: I think that before they unionize, they should create a professional society.
eddycurrents sez to all: that could star a musclebound austrian actor
anneliese sez to all: The society can dictate the future of computing.
camidon sez to all: oh, wait, Ellison wrote that one...
anneliese sez to all: Blacklist certain algorithms.
anneliese sez to all: Association dues are paid in spare cpu cycles.
anneliese sez to all: Don't know what the association does with them, though.
camidon sez to all: well, it's been fun, its been real, its been real fun, but I got to get to some other things tonight
anneliese sez to all: Same here...bed being one of them.
eddycurrents sez to all: yeah the voices are getting insistent
anneliese sez to all: Thanks, everyone for coming.
davek sez to all: My screen may hold text but my brain is blank.
davek sez to all: See you later.
anneliese sez to all: Thanks, eddy, for sharing your story with us.
camidon sez to all: nice chat again, folks.
eddycurrents sez to all: my wife and my pillow are calling to me
eddycurrents sez to all: thanks all
eddycurrents sez to all: bonne nuit
camidon sez to all: who's going to bring the coffee and donuts next time?
anneliese sez to all: Niters, good chat.
camidon sez to all: anywho, gn
anneliese sez to all: It's your turn, isn't it?
camidon sez to all: nite anneliese
anneliese sez to all: nite all.