SFWW Chats

camidon: Dave, (if you're not distracted at the moment) have you done anymore research into old SFWW links?
anneliese: third try's a charm.
Elizabeth: Hello, everybody!
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth!
camidon: Hi Elizabeth
anneliese: I didn't get a system message.
davek: Whoa, Elizabeth's entry reset me. Hi. Elizabeth.
anneliese: New version again?
Elizabeth: How are you doing?
Elizabeth: I didn't mean to bump you, David.
anneliese: Just arriving myself
davek: To answer Chris, I did a Google search on SFWW and got about 17 links.
camidon: Dave gets bump, I get frozen, scolling doesn't: there still are a few bugs in this chat software
davek: But the price is right.
Elizabeth: It's not quite as bad as the Writers Club applet that iUniverse used to have, though.
anneliese: Great, Dave. I think it is time to begin updating links to the new site.
Elizabeth: That seemed to bump people every few minutes.
camidon: I'm just happy we have a definite, communal gathering place, hopefully in time, the bugs will get better
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
anneliese: Chat software keeps getting better, but I wonder if irc would be better.
davek: I was wondering what to say to the webmasters. Why is our old link gone?
anneliese: What do you mean?
camidon: What do you mean, Why is our old link gone?
davek: Well, I have to write an email saying that our old site is defunct. Why don't we put a link there or do a automatic switch?
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: WB, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth: Grrrrrr.
camidon: ah, I see
anneliese: Dave, I think that we decided that the email would come from Elizabeth and me.
anneliese: The gist will be to say that the SFFW site has moved to a new host...here is the new address.
davek: OK. I'll get a list of e-mail addresses to you ASAP. Probably a few days.
camidon: Anneliese, nothing at all from Mark (SFWWmoder?)
anneliese: That would be fantastic.
Elizabeth: I'd heard that Mark is now working as a WH liaison. Very very busy.
anneliese: Nothing from Mark. Amy hasn't heard from him either.
Elizabeth: WH: White House.
camidon: didn't think so
anneliese: I should get some more updates to the website this week.
camidon: well ain't that a strange bit of gossip if it's true. Wouldn't have guessed that.
anneliese: Anyone besides CM want to send me their 2 cents, I'll take it.
camidon: I sent you about 5 bucks worth! and that probably $4.95 more than you have time for!
anneliese: At least that amount. And worth every penny!
Elizabeth: lol!
camidon: well, that's at least good.
anneliese: I was looking over the links posted on the message board today.
anneliese: I'd like to incorporate some of that on the site.
Elizabeth: I think that would be a good idea.
anneliese: Folks have been posting a lot of good references.
anneliese: Well, do we continue to talk about SFWW business, or go on to CM's story?
Elizabeth: It sounds like we've got a pretty good handle on business...CM, is it critique time?
camidon: sounds fine with me
anneliese: Esteemed host, would you like to begin?
Elizabeth: Sorry about the delay. Puppy wants to play.
Elizabeth: I enjoyed this story. Some excellent details about the fairy world (I especially liked the teacher using clouds as chalk).
Elizabeth: I thought the Festival of Wings was a neat idea, and there was enough "edge"--Candiello having to sever her grandfather's wings, the idea of facing death and turning it into a thing of beauty--
davek: I thought it would sell well in a pre-teen girl market except for the enthusium for the grandparents dieing.
Elizabeth: to keep the story from being "precious", which is sometimes a hazard of fairy stories.
camidon: I'll take that as a compliment, Dave
Elizabeth: The one thing that kind of threw me off was that Candiello didn't seem to be upset about her grandfather dying.
anneliese: CM, was there anything that you wanted us to focus on about the story?
Elizabeth: I know she's excited that she finally gets to participate in the Festival of Wings, but I'd expect her to feel at least a little sad, or perhaps guilty that her grandfather doesn't get to enjoy this any more.
Elizabeth: And I expected her to have a much harder time--to be freaked out, really--at the prospect of cutting off Grandpa's wings. That's pretty intense.
davek: Maybe if the grandparents had beed dead for a while so the period of grief has passed.
camidon: I can see that, about us wanter her to feel sad, but what if this is not a moment of sadness for their society (just plaining devil's advocate)
Elizabeth: It also didn't seem quite right that the grandparents' deaths were announced over the loudspeaker. Maybe fairy sensibilities are different...
anneliese: If faries have a different philosophy re: death, then grief need not be an issue.
Elizabeth: true, Anneliese...
camidon: The wing cutting see is intense, and so I can see making her more "freaked out"
Elizabeth: You write in that scene that wings are really, really important to a fairy...I can see Candiello having a really hard time going through with the cutting.
davek: I keep thinking of a young adult audience. If it is an adult audience than that changes my suggestions.
Elizabeth: I liked the sympathy her parents show, and they clearly expect it to be hard.
davek: Maybe two versions, a young and an old. Double your chances for a sale.
camidon: I agree, Elizabeth. It should be hard. Perhaps I should draw out the scene a little more
camidon: Wings are the central element to the society
Elizabeth: good idea, Dave. Can't hurt.
anneliese: I wouldn't draw it out too much, though, or it may feel like beating a dead horse.
camidon: Dave, I think when I wrote this, I specifically wanted it on the boundary, but you might be right, may be I should try a draft in both formats
camidon: About lengthening: I was trying to keep this relatively short, under 2000, but I failed at 2,500.
davek: I didn't have any problems with the length.
Elizabeth: That's still a workable length for YA magazines, though. And some of them have good pay rates.
anneliese: I thought it could be a bit longer, maybe 3,000.
Elizabeth: <===agrees w/Dave and Anneliese. If you cut much of this story, I think it might be confusing.
camidon: So I remember specifically cutting certain things.
davek: What is a good "short" story length? I see a lot of market info that says that the market is saturated with longer stories.
camidon: That's good to know, that it could be longer and keep people';s interest
camidon: X<7,500 words, though some markets its <5,000
davek: I'm trying to edit Contact 1.0. I'm torn between removing all the story about Joan's beauty and modeling career or leaving it in and having the story over 5000 words.
camidon: I'd say if you're seriously thinking about cutting it out, then do it.
Elizabeth: Yeah, the markets that I see requesting "shorter" fiction have a 5-7.5K word limit.
Elizabeth: Of the markets that take different-length stories, that is.
Elizabeth: A lot of the short story markets set the bound at 4-5K.
camidon: What about the name Candello, Can for short? I nearly changed it before I sent this out. From the crits received so far, they thought it should be changed.
Elizabeth: I liked the name Candiello, but the nickname could be trouble.
anneliese: I would have liked something like 'Cande' for Candie rather than 'Can'
Elizabeth: Candi might work better.
anneliese: I bumped the first time I saw 'Can'.
davek: Me too.
camidon: That was my problem. I fell in love with Candello, and to a certain extent with Can, but there's just too many problems with "can"
anneliese: I like Candello.
camidon: I don't like Candi, though, as it sounds like a cheerleader or something too sweet
anneliese: But she is sweet.
Elizabeth: True...maybe Dello?
camidon: Dello's a possibility, Cande, too. I've also tossed around Zandello and Zan
camidon: Any votes?
Elizabeth: I like Candello better than Zandello...
anneliese: Both work for me.
Elizabeth: but Zan does work better as a nickname.
camidon: The only other thing I have a question about is the ending. 1) Did the rainbow motif make sense, and 2) did it wrap up the story well enough. Bruce wanted something more spectacular?
anneliese: It was a predictable thing, but I thought it was entirely appropriate.
anneliese: Made for a great rainbow myth.
Elizabeth: I liked it, even if I saw it coming. Seemed very appropriate.
camidon: That's kind of what I was going for, likable if a little transparent.
davek: I thought the wings were going to be snow.
Elizabeth: It fit with the overall mood of the story. You didn't seem to be going for a "twist" or spectacular ending.
anneliese: I thought for a while that they might presage fall.
Elizabeth: I liked the use of the rainbow...fit in with the theme of renewal.
anneliese: Would explain why so many faries seem to croak all at once.
Elizabeth: Oooh. That's an interesting thought.
camidon: I was going for a: deaths occur once a year all around the same time, and then the cloud storms. Different clouds have their "die-off" at different times, and that's why there are storms and rainbows throughout the year; however, couldn't have all the exposition.
anneliese: That was the only aspect of the story that seemed to bother me...that they had mass funerals....seemingly a generation dies off enmasse.
camidon: --didn't have room for all the exposition, and it wasn't all that necessary to the story
anneliese: True.
davek: Except for us analytical types.
Elizabeth: Well, mayflies do something similar...they reproduce and die en masse. It's odd, but not unheard of.
camidon: lol, Dave
anneliese: Actually, it would only take a sentence, during the principal's announcement.
anneliese: "now announcing...this year's renewal...the following students are excused..."
camidon: What do you mean, Anneliese?
davek: BUt if it is so predicable it would be planned in advance and all students would go.
camidon: ah, I see
anneliese: Nope, it has to be one child with parents.
System: Juanita joined us. Cheers!
Elizabeth: hi Juanita!
anneliese: Hi Juanita!
Juanita: hi all I just got home ant thought I'd see what's going on
camidon: Hello Juanita
Elizabeth: Not necessarily, Dave...perhaps the grandparent(s) hang on until one of the grandchildren is ready for the ceremony.
anneliese: Discussing CM's story.
camidon: That's a great idea, Anneliese, Elizabeth.
Juanita: good. Sorry CM I think my crit is still in my drafts file
davek: The ceremony is for all faries but those with grandparents are the participants.
Elizabeth: It's clear that Candello is small for her age, and wants really badly to go to the Festival of Wings, to show her maturity as well as find out what the big deal's about.
anneliese: The symmetry of the ceremony was fantastic...wouldn't change a thing there.
camidon: No prob, Juanita
Juanita: How many wings fall at once. The description made it seem like a very large amount
camidon: Dave, my intention was that only those who had a grandparent die could attend the Festival
Juanita: Do the wings retain life after the person has died?
camidon: Juanita, my intention is an infite amount, thousands of thousands. If every cloud has a colony of fairies...
Juanita: My crit covers th eimpossibility of an appendage bleeding after it9;s dead
camidon: No, once they fade from existence, the rainbow finally fades, then so do the wings
davek: If their life cycle is so fixed then all in the same grade would be having grandparents dying at the same time. Analytical to the max.
Juanita: I meant the bleeding while Can was cutting them off
camidon: Well that's good, I was wondering about that. I think Dave mentioned it in his crit
camidon: about the bleeding wings that is.
anneliese: <==agrees with Juanita, but still like the story as is.
Juanita: What happens if a person has more than one grandchild?
Juanita: So do I
Juanita: Like the story, that is.
camidon: So maybe the wings need to stay alive somehow, for a time, after the "spirit" has left a grandparent's body
camidon: then the wings die too after the rainbow fades
Juanita: You did touch on that indirectly.
Juanita: When you described how she could feel to know where to cut.
anneliese: I don't think it is much to fret about. They're faries...we don't have to understand their physiology.
Juanita: True
camidon: Dave, analytical to the core, but in my mind, their lifestyle is not that rigid.
camidon: That's true, but I do like to be consistent. Even though in Fantasy a writer makes his own rules, sometimes one should stick to some of the old
Elizabeth: They're fairies.
davek: Lifestyles of the rich and farie. But I said life cycle. Like the Mayflies mentioned earlier.
camidon: ok, life cycle In my mind, the are born anytime, but they die at specific times.
camidon: Juanita, about the more than one grandchild, that's kind of bothered me too...
anneliese: Each family has to have 2 children...one per grand parent.
Juanita: Maybe make it one of those things the eldest grandchild or one with a particular talent does
camidon: ...I suppose there are limits to reproduction among these faries. No more than four grandchildren
davek: Not a stable population.
anneliese: Didn't say that quite right...but the math should work.
camidon: But that would make for another good story: What would happen in that tradition was broken: a grandchild without a grandparnt to provide its "nourishing lifeblood" to the young
Elizabeth: Oooh, that is a good idea.
Juanita: I'd like to read that...
camidon: I'll have to tack that to my To-Do list
anneliese: We have twins...one wing per child?
Elizabeth: lol!
davek: I like the twins. It allows for population growth.
Juanita: Maybe one wing per child is the way it's supposed to be adn Can's older brother died so she had to do the whole job
anneliese: Ever watch clouds...they are constantly changing size.
Elizabeth: So the fairy populations would probably fluctuate as well.
camidon: that's right, cloud size all has to do with fairy population!
Juanita: I like that theory!
camidon: So when a cloud finally disappears...
Elizabeth: Fairy climatology!
Juanita: more fairies here
Juanita: Lost something there
anneliese: No rainbow when the cloud dies.
camidon: Its amazing how one story can open up so many more... If only the time
Juanita: We need more faries here
anneliese: A whole book around the cloud farie life cycle.
Elizabeth: Let me see if we can send some your way, Juanita. We've had severe thunderstorms the last two weekends.
davek: That could be the next Harry Potter.
camidon: Why not, I'm expert on the water cylce and rock cycle, why not Fairy Climatology?
anneliese: Works for me.
Elizabeth: I like it, CM!
Juanita: We'll take them..Forcast is for snow later this week
Elizabeth: Yikes! I know you're up north, but it's May...
Juanita: Yeah...
camidon: let's see if I can sell THIS story before any comparisons...
Juanita: Any market ideas
davek: Yesterday I mowed, sprayed weeds and then made sure the hoses were disconnected.
camidon: Dave, didn't you get like 6 inches in fort collins a week or two ago?
Juanita: ?
Elizabeth: I think you'd have good luck selling it to a YA magazine like Cicada.
davek: Not that much. It stopped half way past Denver.
Elizabeth: ralan.com should have the address, etc.
camidon: Jaunita, just the usual collection
davek: Check that engine... web site I posted in the forum. Maybe it can search for YA markets.
camidon: at places like Ralans, that Elizabeth mentions
Juanita: I've got to go, guys. Good night
camidon: I've kept my eyes open and seem like a number of potential fatasy markets. I'll look more into YA markets too
davek: Bye, Juanita.
System: Juanita left us (snif).
anneliese: Glad you could come, Juanita.
camidon: Thanks for dropping by, Juanita
Elizabeth: Alchemy would be another good one.
anneliese: Well, this is definately one to get out to the markets.
Elizabeth: <==agrees w/Anneliese
davek: http://engine.freeshell.org/ has a selection for children's markets
camidon: well, that's always good to hear
Elizabeth: And I probably need to let the dog back in before she starts gnawing on the house.
anneliese: Oh dear!
Elizabeth: thanks for the link, Dave, that's a big helpl!
davek: Bye Elizabeth.
davek: Bye Elizabeth.
camidon: This is one of the rare stories for me where I woke up one morning, had the beginning, the middle, and the end all of a sudden known to me
Elizabeth: She's a year old and has no idea why Mommy spends so much time in front of the glowing box.
camidon: Thanks for coming, Elizabeth
Elizabeth: Annoys her to no end.
davek: See you Wednesday Chris.
Elizabeth: Glad I could make it, CM. I hope my comments were helpful!
camidon: Absolutely, thanks
anneliese: Good chat, everyone.
Elizabeth: Good night everybody...it was good talking to you.
camidon: I'll be there, Dave. Thakns for coming everyone
anneliese: Niters.
davek: Bye all.
anneliese: Thanks for sharing your story.
System: davek left us (snif).

System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese sez to all: Hi Dave!
davek sez to all: Hi, Anneliese.
anneliese sez to all: Could be a small group tonight.
davek sez to all: It's still early.
anneliese sez to all: Yes, I don't expect anyone to be on time!
anneliese sez to all: brb, got to get my copy of eddy's sub.
davek sez to all: HI Chris. Did you finally get my e-mail?
davek sez to all: I kept typo'ing your address.
camidon sez to all: hello, all
camidon sez to all: just got it a minute ago
camidon sez to all: I think Wed, is the best day for me
davek sez to all: OK that would be the 5th. Same place?
anneliese sez to all: Hi CM!
camidon sez to all: yep, the fifth. I'm open to new places, though for sake of ease, that place works too. Do you have a preference?
camidon sez to all: hi Anneliese!
davek sez to all: No, I don't get to it much so I'm not tired of it.
camidon sez to all: Let's just go there again. It worked fine for me.
camidon sez to all: How's 11? An hour earlier this time?
davek sez to all: OK, noon? Or ?
davek sez to all: OK, noon? Or ?
davek sez to all: OK 11.
camidon sez to all: lastly then, do you want to meet at Starbucks, or just at the Deli place/
davek sez to all: Meet at Starbucks and walk over.
camidon sez to all: Sounds great to me. I look forward to it
davek sez to all: Hey Anneliese, you can join us. Going to be in Fort COllins next Wed?
System: eddycurrents joined us. Cheers!
anneliese sez to all: Hi Eddy!
eddycurrents sez to all: bonsoir
anneliese sez to all: Wish I could...my niece is graduating from there.
camidon sez to all:
eddycurrents sez to all: hey I didn't get a history this time
eddycurrents sez to all: what y'all talking about?
camidon sez to all: Dave and I are getting together in Fort Collins, CO for lunch
eddycurrents sez to all: cool
eddycurrents sez to all: go spelunking after?
camidon sez to all: Any chance you'll be in the state?
anneliese sez to all: I have never gotten a history
camidon sez to all: Nah, I don't think Dave goes in for that But I am going on the 7th
camidon sez to all: whoops
davek sez to all: I haven't been caving since college.
camidon sez to all: drat, I mistyped it again. Caving for me =
davek sez to all: I've only been in some PA caves. Small wet things to what they have out here.
eddycurrents sez to all: I went scuba diving in a couple
camidon sez to all: cave diving, Eddy? really?
davek sez to all: WHere?
eddycurrents sez to all: technically it was cavern diving, we were never more than 100 ft from an entrance
eddycurrents sez to all: in Yucatan, cenote diving
davek sez to all: Ocean or inland cave?
camidon sez to all: Ah, I see, but I'm impressed. That takes some guts, even a short way in. Statistically speaking, cave diving is the most dangerous thing tou can do on the face of the planet.
eddycurrents sez to all: spectacular diving, they were once coral reefs, then above ground caves, so they have fossilized reef and underwater stalactites/mites
camidon sez to all: Anneliese (we don't want to exclude you in this conversation), I got to say, please, please, please, let's keep the critique schedule updated on the webpage!
anneliese sez to all: Oops, sorry. I've been trying to do the message board, and totally forgot to do that one.
davek sez to all: OK, back to the story. Eddy, I found a reference to how to quote notes. It goes like:
camidon sez to all: That sounds pretty cool, then again, imo, caves are really cool, seeing as I willing to spend a weekend underground
anneliese sez to all: I ought to be able to do it tomorrow.
davek sez to all: The note read: "text of note."
camidon sez to all: Thank, you, thank you, thank you. <ok, Dave's right, story time>
anneliese sez to all: Well, shall we begin, then?
anneliese sez to all: Since it is your sub, Eddy, do you have anything you'd like to say about it, or ask us first?
eddycurrents sez to all: like I said in the submission
eddycurrents sez to all: the ending... it seemed like a good idea at the time but after I said nah
eddycurrents sez to all: so maybe
davek sez to all: It is hard to be surprising and not so brief as to seem like you just quit.
eddycurrents sez to all: the theme was... you are responsible for your actions
eddycurrents sez to all: and he was to much of a coward to face them, so he quit
anneliese sez to all: I had two thoughts about the ending: you set it up well, and, it was predictable, and (#3) I was happy that he died... didn't like him much anyway.
eddycurrents sez to all: too
eddycurrents sez to all: well you were supposed to pity him a little
eddycurrents sez to all: just a regular guy doing his job
eddycurrents sez to all: but a little drunk on power
anneliese sez to all: I felt like I ought to pity him, but I couldn't, because he was to self-centered.
camidon sez to all: To a point I did, but there comes a time, when your character needs to stand up to someone, please anyone
eddycurrents sez to all: that's interesting
camidon sez to all: By the end, the little pity I did feel, had turned into disgust
anneliese sez to all: Of course, it's been a really tough couple of weeks, and that has colored everything in my life, so it may have nothing to do with the story.
camidon sez to all: and therefore I had lost touch with the story
eddycurrents sez to all: good
eddycurrents sez to all: oh
eddycurrents sez to all: well that's not good
anneliese sez to all: CM, you put it exactly as I felt it.
camidon sez to all: <very amusing series of responses, Eddy...>
davek sez to all: I don't think there was time to build up empathy for him.
camidon sez to all: well that's good, Anneliese, I was just thinking how Bruce managed to some up my critique in a few lines, rather than a few pages
camidon sez to all: "sum up" rather
anneliese sez to all: I liked the foreshadowing...the view out the window and the ignored inbox.
eddycurrents sez to all: hehe
eddycurrents sez to all: the setup
eddycurrents sez to all: so I was thinking
camidon sez to all: Those points were well done, the bird on the updraft, etc
eddycurrents sez to all: somehow the spirit won't let him die
eddycurrents sez to all: so he tries to jump but somehow can't, then he has to deal with things
camidon sez to all: But it doesn't make me like the ending or the character anymore
camidon sez to all: Good possibility
eddycurrents sez to all: but how would anyone deal with that?
eddycurrents sez to all: then I thought
eddycurrents sez to all: it could be the whole dream thing, and he has the choice to put things back the way they were, but that's worse
eddycurrents sez to all: waaaaay too cliche
camidon sez to all: Definitely a NO on the dream aspect.
anneliese sez to all: As long as you're going to wipe everyone out, I think his action of attonement is appropriate.
davek sez to all: Yes, no to the dream.
camidon sez to all: Eddy, do you any idea Who, or What, or Why these voices occur?
eddycurrents sez to all: the spirit idea was, he always spoke with benign spirits who really had no influence on his life
anneliese sez to all: As we seem to be agreeing, we wanted to pity him at the beginning, but by the end, he's a real looser.
eddycurrents sez to all: but this one time, a malevolent one gets in
eddycurrents sez to all: and he takes advantage without really thinking about it
anneliese sez to all: To me, it seemed like a classic set-up that the devil would use to gain one's confidence.
eddycurrents sez to all: then of course things get out of control
davek sez to all: How about the argument that Jerry didn't kill the people the spirits did. Whaen they object he says - Kill me.
eddycurrents sez to all: what do you mean?
davek sez to all: That was not too clear. Did you get it?
camidon sez to all: I think it's important to totally understand what and who and why these voices occur. Not so much the reader, but the author.
davek sez to all: He has an argument with the spirits about who was responsible. To prove if it was Jerry or the spirts he confronts the spirts withthe request to kill himself.
camidon sez to all: In that manner, you can create approiate respones by the Jerry, and fill the stroywith an underlying structure. Hmmm... I'm not sure I'm making much sense. It may be the voices in MY head...
eddycurrents sez to all: dave... I like that
camidon sez to all: Now that's a good possibility to explore
davek sez to all: But does he die?
eddycurrents sez to all: he tells the spirit to kill him, to prove he exists so he knows he isn't crazy
eddycurrents sez to all: yeah he dies
davek sez to all: If he dies then he was responsible.
anneliese sez to all: To me, I liked jumping out of the window...it was something he came up with, without the spirits suggesting it.
camidon sez to all: That has a much greater potential for the ending, then simple suicide. And also, he final stands up to someone
anneliese sez to all: Good point.
eddycurrents sez to all: good one chris
camidon sez to all: And who better to stand up to then himself?
camidon sez to all: If you can't stand up to yourself, you're certainly not going to stand up to anyone else
davek sez to all: Has anyone seen "Secret Window?" It has an author going mad. It fits in with this discussion on a couple of levels.
eddycurrents sez to all: this is getting reaaaally metaphorical
camidon sez to all: Tried to see it, but it never came to the sticks of CO
davek sez to all: You started it Eddy.
camidon sez to all: I blame the metaphorical on Kafka
eddycurrents sez to all: I'm just a conduit, the spirits speak through me
davek sez to all: Someday I'll read Kafka.
anneliese sez to all: lol, Eddy
eddycurrents sez to all: you are all jealous because the voices only talk to me
davek sez to all: All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
davek sez to all: What is it with me and crazy writers today.
camidon sez to all: To be frank, though, Eddy when i read Downsized, i just don't think there's enough to ever make it marketable. I don't know if if will ever be more than a satire of corporate life. The challenge is to make a story like this good enough for market. The question then, is the time input worth the output? Or should you work on other things insead?
davek sez to all: But you might scare one manager and save one job from going to India.
camidon sez to all: As you mentioned, you showed this to an office friend who got a big kick out of it? Can a story like this ever be more than that watercooler joke? Again, that's the quandry.
anneliese sez to all: I think the story has potential, but agree with CM, that it has to go somewhere further.
eddycurrents sez to all: well it wasn't supposed to be funny
davek sez to all: Make it less about downsizing and more about the internal conflict. Make it less obvious that the deaths are supernatural.
camidon sez to all: I'm not trying to trash the story, or your writing, Eddy, I've just stating what I feel about the story. This what I go through every time I decide whether to rewrite a story
eddycurrents sez to all: the joke was, his name is Doug and we used to go for coffee
eddycurrents sez to all: so I threw that in there
eddycurrents sez to all: thing is
anneliese sez to all: Or make the deaths even more obviously supernatural to everyone.
eddycurrents sez to all: when I write something, I get into it, polish it, then let it be
eddycurrents sez to all: so I don't like to change things too much
eddycurrents sez to all: I can change endings tho
eddycurrents sez to all: so yeah, at some point it's time to move on if it isn't working
davek sez to all: So the question is more supernatural or less?
camidon sez to all: That might be the way to go, either more towards the supernatural, or more towards the office, but not in between. Either the killings are supernatural or they are not
camidon sez to all: looks like we're on the same page.
eddycurrents sez to all: they are
davek sez to all: But you don't have to tell the reader.
anneliese sez to all: What if someone suddenly sprouts purple puss and explodes...what happens then?
camidon sez to all:
eddycurrents sez to all: has this happened to you?
anneliese sez to all: No only does the mc know that he is responsible, but coworkers have to believe that something strange is going on. It changes some of the dynamics.
anneliese sez to all: Happens all the time, eddy.
camidon sez to all: Funny, very funny, though i think ultimately that would hurt the story
camidon sez to all: Maybe the feeling you need to go for is: The Sixth Sense. realistic but more scary then fun.
anneliese sez to all: I don't think the story should be made absurd, but a subtle exploration/panic might add some uniqueness.
camidon sez to all: I think I would agree with that
davek sez to all: Eddy, do you plot the story to the end or start it and let it go?
eddycurrents sez to all: the latter
eddycurrents sez to all: I usually know how it's going to end, just not how to get there
camidon sez to all: sorry, program crashed. Did I ever leave?
davek sez to all: You're listed twice on my screen.
davek sez to all: Now just once.
anneliese sez to all: Just once here.
camidon sez to all: I guess my split personality is finally coming to life
eddycurrents sez to all: you are half the man you used to be
anneliese sez to all: You crashed, but no one entered/left this time.
camidon sez to all: Did I miss any great intique?
eddycurrents sez to all: or is that two halves?
anneliese sez to all: Not really.
camidon sez to all: intriqued, that is; didn't think so
davek sez to all: I just remembered an old joke. You can always get off work by telling the boss that the voices in your head are telling you to go home and clean your guns.
camidon sez to all: oh gosh, I give up trying to spell intrigue
camidon sez to all: wait, I think I got it
eddycurrents sez to all: inn treague
anneliese sez to all: You guys getting punchy? It's not even that late where you are!
camidon sez to all: I'm never very sane. I blame the cow manure in the air
camidon sez to all: Well, any other thoughts on Eddy's story? Any other questions for us Eddy?
anneliese sez to all: lol. And I must be nutty because I like the smell of cow manure in the air...in small doses.
camidon sez to all: Btw, Dave, I read "what I didn't see", and replied about three times on the bboard
anneliese sez to all: Thanks, CM, obviously, I'm losing it.
davek sez to all: CHris, I saw one of them.
camidon sez to all: nonsense, Anneliese, to be in a writing group means you never had it!
anneliese sez to all: lol
anneliese sez to all: Yes, Eddy, anything you'd like to add/ask as we wrap up?
eddycurrents sez to all: nope, thanks all for your comments, I can play with the ending
davek sez to all: Or it can play with you
eddycurrents sez to all: the voices are telling me to say good night
eddycurrents sez to all: oh wait, that was my wife
camidon sez to all: Anneliese, though Mike Marsh has been awol the last few weeks, we emailed a little bit. He/I want to have a chat night dedicated to discussing the use/uses of AOL
davek sez to all: My stories often bounce me around like a ball.
camidon sez to all: In his words, he thinks SFWW can only grow so much while tethered to AOL
anneliese sez to all: Sure, CM, do you have a time/date in mind?
eddycurrents sez to all: he still pissed at me?
camidon sez to all: I would suggest, next week, but since my story is coming up...
davek sez to all: We're less tethered than we used to be.
eddycurrents sez to all: he won't accept my emails
camidon sez to all: He's over it. I talked to him a bunch after that. He's been into his writing and stepped a way from the group for a moment
eddycurrents sez to all: I apologized several ways, tried to explain things, he took them all wrong
eddycurrents sez to all: ok
anneliese sez to all: I think Bruce has the non-aol slot after you, and he is not interested in a story chat.
camidon sez to all: He was having a rough few weeks, and he failed to see the humor
anneliese sez to all: I think your apologies were sufficient, eddy.
davek sez to all: I've been there Eddy. Sometimes it is hard to clear up a problem except face-to-face.
camidon sez to all: I wonder why Bruce isn't more into the bboard and the chats. He's such an active writer.
anneliese sez to all: testing...
anneliese sez to all: My screen went blank.
eddycurrents sez to all: hi Anneliese
eddycurrents sez to all: you logged out for a sec
camidon sez to all: I wonder why Bruce isn't more into the bboard and the chats. He's such an active writer. I guess its like older scifi writers and there typewriters
davek sez to all: Wait a minute.
anneliese sez to all: Had to restart to get my window back.
eddycurrents sez to all: Juanita tunes in from time to time
camidon sez to all: Anneliese, let's plan to have that AOL usefulness chat the week of Bruce's slot
camidon sez to all: unless a better topic arises
anneliese sez to all: Sounds good to me. I'll post it on the web page and message board.
camidon sez to all: btw, anneliese, did you say you'd be "in the air" during this chat?
davek sez to all: I didn't mean that literaly.
anneliese sez to all: Yes, I was scheduled to go to San Francisco for a class, but it was cancelled.
camidon sez to all: huh? Dave, Eddy? Your recent lines befuddle me
eddycurrents sez to all: we cast the spell of confusion
davek sez to all: Scrolling wasn't working so I said "Wait a minute" and noting was happening.
eddycurrents sez to all: mind you, Dave got me too
eddycurrents sez to all: ah
eddycurrents sez to all: sometimes scrolling gets stuck for a few seconds
camidon sez to all: lol. Looks like our machines/programing are rebeling. I think they want to unionize
eddycurrents sez to all: for this chat, my scrolling isn't working, the lines keep going off the bottom of the screen, so I have to keep moving the slider
camidon sez to all: Hmm, actually, that's an interesting idea: sentient computers/programs unionizing
anneliese sez to all: Ditto for me. Scrolling hasn't worked in weeks. But it did once upon a time.
eddycurrents sez to all: and they go crazy and become self aware and launch missiles against the Russians to cause a global war to wipe out their greatest threat -- the humans!
anneliese sez to all: I think that before they unionize, they should create a professional society.
eddycurrents sez to all: that could star a musclebound austrian actor
anneliese sez to all: The society can dictate the future of computing.
camidon sez to all: oh, wait, Ellison wrote that one...
anneliese sez to all: Blacklist certain algorithms.
anneliese sez to all: Association dues are paid in spare cpu cycles.
anneliese sez to all: Don't know what the association does with them, though.
camidon sez to all: well, it's been fun, its been real, its been real fun, but I got to get to some other things tonight
anneliese sez to all: Same here...bed being one of them.
eddycurrents sez to all: yeah the voices are getting insistent
anneliese sez to all: Thanks, everyone for coming.
davek sez to all: My screen may hold text but my brain is blank.
davek sez to all: See you later.
anneliese sez to all: Thanks, eddy, for sharing your story with us.
camidon sez to all: nice chat again, folks.
eddycurrents sez to all: my wife and my pillow are calling to me
eddycurrents sez to all: thanks all
eddycurrents sez to all: bonne nuit
camidon sez to all: who's going to bring the coffee and donuts next time?
anneliese sez to all: Niters, good chat.
camidon sez to all: anywho, gn
anneliese sez to all: It's your turn, isn't it?
camidon sez to all: nite anneliese
anneliese sez to all: nite all.

4/12/04 10:02:59 PM Opening "Chat Log 4-12-04"

Djkrenitsky: Hi Satin
HOST WPLC acmfox: Open topic, You choose.
OnlineHost:

System: eddycurrents joined us. Cheers!
System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
camidon sez to everybody: Hiya eddy.
camidon sez to everybody: It took me six or seven tries to get
here....
camidon sez to everybody: Kept getting strange errors. Was about to
send a message to Anneliese. ..
camidon sez to everybody: You there?
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
eddycurrents sez to everybody: hey dave
davek sez to everybody: Hello
eddycurrents sez to everybody: hey chris
eddycurrents sez to everybody: yeah the temp directory permissions
were messed up
eddycurrents sez to everybody: I fixed them
camidon sez to everybody: hello
davek sez to everybody: Just pull a Microsoft and make it wide open
to anybody.
eddycurrents sez to everybody: for some reason they weren't set to
777 and the lockfiles weren't either
camidon sez to everybody: well, that's why persistence can pay off.
I figured I'd keep trying until it worked or i got mad
eddycurrents sez to everybody: hehe
eddycurrents sez to everybody: I wonder if it's because Anneliese
transferred the website, or something
eddycurrents sez to everybody: but the chatroom is in a whole other
directory
camidon sez to everybody: That seems like a good possibility
eddycurrents sez to everybody: oh well
camidon sez to everybody: At least you were around and were able to
fix them
eddycurrents sez to everybody: it seems every week it's something
eddycurrents sez to everybody: although I guess the last two chats
went fine without me
camidon sez to everybody: ain't that the truth about life
eddycurrents sez to everybody:
eddycurrents sez to everybody:
camidon sez to everybody: Dave, I thought you were traveling the
world or something for a little while?
camidon sez to everybody: dropping off the radar for a few weeks or
something like that?
davek sez to everybody: We leave tomorrow. I wasn't sure if I would
have the time today.
camidon sez to everybody: sheesh there's a lot of smileys
davek sez to everybody: Scrolling is not working so I'm going to
log off and back on.
eddycurrents sez to everybody: yep
eddycurrents sez to everybody: dave
eddycurrents sez to everybody: which browser are you using?
System: davek left us (snif).
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
davek sez to everybody: That seems to have fixed it.
camidon sez to everybody: I wonder if Anneliese forgot, or if the
site wasn't working when she showed up? so she left
camidon sez to everybody: lalala
eddycurrents sez to all: well if she did
eddycurrents sez to all: we would see it in the chat history
camidon sez to all: when you logged off, Dave, it froze my screen
davek sez to all: I see that the web site has moved for development
purposes. Any word fro our old webmaster.
eddycurrents sez to all: I just changed "everybody" to "all" ...
does that look better?
eddycurrents sez to all: less space on the line
camidon sez to all: yes
camidon sez to all: I'm assuming since the website moved, that
Anneliese was unable to contact Mark
camidon sez to all: It's moved and been partially updated!
davek sez to all: Chris, did you have to log off?
System: anneliese joined us. Cheers!
anneliese sez to all: Hi Everyone
davek sez to all: HI.
anneliese sez to all: Who was brave enough to fix the error?
eddycurrents sez to all: hi Anneliese
camidon sez to all: Hi, anneliese, we were just talking about you
anneliese sez to all: evil, I'm sure
eddycurrents sez to all: so what does iUniverse do, exactly to be our sponsor?
camidon sez to all: well, not about you, rather, of your presence!
anneliese sez to all: nothing, any more. I think.
anneliese sez to all: I couldn't get in earlier.
camidon sez to all: So what do we have to do, to switch sites using the old SFWW site to the new updated one??
eddycurrents sez to all: :sm013:
eddycurrents sez to all:
anneliese sez to all: Figure out where there were links to the old site and change them, I think.
eddycurrents sez to all: aha case sensitive
anneliese sez to all: Ooooh eddy, that is cool!
camidon sez to all: Did you say you were doing that Dave? Or jhad started?
System: joeg joined us. Cheers!
eddycurrents sez to all: nooo jihad
anneliese sez to all: Hi Joeg!
joeg sez to all: hello
camidon sez to all: whoops, my bad with the typo
eddycurrents sez to all:
davek sez to all: I will start once I get back. In two weeks.
anneliese sez to all: I didn't get the last 50 lines of chat, though.
eddycurrents sez to all: hmm should have
eddycurrents sez to all: it's a global setting
anneliese sez to all: Would have been handy tonight, having come in late.
davek sez to all: I didn't get them the first time I logged in and scrolloing wasn't working. So I loged out and back in. It locks up Chris though.
eddycurrents sez to all: I'm running under Mozilla Firefox and it seems most stable
camidon sez to all: Fabulous, Dave. I think that's the next big thing to do. We have an updatable website, now we just need to get it visible
camidon sez to all: Fabulous, Dave. I think that's the next big thing to do. We have an updatable website, now we just need to get it visible
anneliese sez to all: Seems to be random for me, one day it works, the next, no good.
eddycurrents sez to all: well tonight there was a permissions problem I had to fix
anneliese sez to all: So, you are comfortable with what I did with the website this afternoon?
eddycurrents sez to all: that's why no one could log in
camidon sez to all: I'm with Anneliese with regards to the chat. One day it works, the next...
anneliese sez to all: Thanks for the fix!
camidon sez to all: wtrg to the website, it's a great step
eddycurrents sez to all: the link to Your Hosts is busted, need to fix that one
anneliese sez to all: I didn't change the backgrounds yet...
anneliese sez to all: Actually, the original website had a broken link there as well, so I'm deleteing the host link for now.
camidon sez to all: There's a dozen things I jotted down about fiddling with it, but the basics are there, and that's what is most important
anneliese sez to all: Only a dozen? Get to work!
anneliese sez to all: I'm just glad that you had time to look at it at all!
camidon sez to all:
eddycurrents sez to all:
camidon sez to all: I don't know if you want to get into nitty gritty things to alter and fiddle with tonight, do we?
eddycurrents sez to all: how are you building the html pages?
anneliese sez to all: It can be done as emails, as well.
camidon sez to all: or do we?
anneliese sez to all: I work in Dreamweaver, mostly.
eddycurrents sez to all: looks like it's from scratch
anneliese sez to all: I had to rip out a bunch of junk that AOL inserted wrt banner ads, etc.
davek sez to all: Is www.acmfow.com/sfww/index.htm going to be the final URL?
anneliese sez to all: I used site reaper to get Mark's original site, and began with that.
anneliese sez to all: I might have to change the url to www.acmfox.com/sfww/index.html
anneliese sez to all: It seems that the ISP isn't loading it as '.htm'
eddycurrents sez to all: you can make both
davek sez to all: Not frontpage?
anneliese sez to all: Not frontpage! Never!
anneliese sez to all: Yes, I could make both.
eddycurrents sez to all: Frontpage :046:
eddycurrents sez to all: oops Frontpage
anneliese sez to all: lol
joeg sez to all: .htm loaded for me
eddycurrents sez to all: mind you, that's what I use, frontpage is convenient
anneliese sez to all: Now, that is wierd...maybe it was just a timing problem for me then. I thought it should load by just entering www.acmfox.com/sfww
eddycurrents sez to all: the browser should tack on the index.htm
anneliese sez to all: I tried frontpage once...for about 5 minutes.
eddycurrents sez to all: most will also try index.html and home.htm / html
davek sez to all: Actually I think the web server defaults to index.html.
camidon sez to all: www.acmfox.com/sfww worked for me just now
anneliese sez to all: It does normally, but didn't for me this afternoon.
anneliese sez to all: and default.htm/html
eddycurrents sez to all: it's apache so it wants .html, being unix based
anneliese sez to all: As I said, maybe it was a timing issue for me this afternoon...it was just after uploading it to the site.
eddycurrents sez to all: but it's the browser that adds the ending
anneliese sez to all: I've used .htm on other pages and it works.
eddycurrents sez to all: hmm that's not quite true is it
anneliese sez to all: I'll assume it was just me and leave as is.
anneliese sez to all: For links, you should be able to simply specify www.acmfox.com/sfww
anneliese sez to all: If I find a problem, I'll make it work.
eddycurrents sez to all: here's a question for y'all
eddycurrents sez to all: how much do you trust the word count on Word?
davek sez to all: Close enough I guess. Why?
anneliese sez to all: This smiley list is getting out of control!
camidon sez to all: Never thought about it, guess I do, Why?
anneliese sez to all: I trust it....however, you need to understand what it is Word is counting.
eddycurrents sez to all: I noticed it counts every word, even the and a
joeg sez to all: I read that it understates the word count, from a publisher's perspective
eddycurrents sez to all: do publishers count the and a?
anneliese sez to all: Yep, it counts everything.
anneliese sez to all: I thought they did.
camidon sez to all: I thought they did, but again, I never thought about it nor researched it
anneliese sez to all: Publisher counts are sometimes just a multiple of page and/or line values.
eddycurrents sez to all: I remember when I was a kid, and forced to do essays by word counts (a stupid way to get kids to write)
eddycurrents sez to all: we were told not to count words less than 3 or 4 letters, I forget
eddycurrents sez to all: so of course we puff out the essay to fill up the word count, and use long words
anneliese sez to all: That sounds like a 'teacher' count, not a publishing count.
eddycurrents sez to all: this is a trend that stuck with me when I started writing after school, and my boss cut it to pieces
camidon sez to all: sounds like a lot of writers I know... (not within this group of course)
joeg sez to all: line values
eddycurrents sez to all: writing in real life should be brief
eddycurrents sez to all: well I read an estimate that publishers use
anneliese sez to all: I've also heard that word count is really a function of character count, where one word=5 characters.
anneliese sez to all: Which was the function we used for tech writing.
anneliese sez to all: Once upon a time.
eddycurrents sez to all: 250 words per page on average
joeg sez to all: here's the article I read http://www.sfwa.org/writing/wordcount.htm
camidon sez to all: Here's a kooky word count story: First Elevator book: 41670; 2nd Elevator series book 51670, on the nose using msword count. 10,000 word difference. go figure.
eddycurrents sez to all: here's one I found too, and posted in our forum: http://www.acmfox.com/sfwwforum/viewtopic.php?t=54
davek sez to all: Look at old formatting directions. They say count the word on ten lines and the prorate the whole story.
eddycurrents sez to all: what do you mean first elevator, second elevator?
camidon sez to all: Speaking of forum, can we get links between the forum and website? Links to each place from the other?
anneliese sez to all: Yes, dave, that I what I remember as the standard rule of thumb.
camidon sez to all: my bad, 1st book I wrote (elevator 1); second book i wrote (elevator2)
anneliese sez to all: Re: links to site from forum, yes. Reverse, maybe not, because forum is private and website is public
davek sez to all: The word count was a way to estimate how much space the story would take.
eddycurrents sez to all: chris, how did you get the word vs. publisher counts?
camidon sez to all: now I'm writing Book III of: The Elevator to the End of the World
eddycurrents sez to all: ahhhhh I get it
eddycurrents sez to all:
camidon sez to all: I see, Anneliese, hadn't thought about that snag
davek sez to all: Put links in both ways. If they don't have a login they they don't get in.
eddycurrents sez to all: yeah
eddycurrents sez to all: although
eddycurrents sez to all: you might have to log in before clicking on the link
camidon sez to all: IIt would be useful though to have a link from the forum, as I often think about things on the website when I'm on the forum
anneliese sez to all: I'm not sure that there would be a reason to link to posts from the website...in essence, website should be somewhat generic and relatively stable.
anneliese sez to all: The forum is much more volatile.
System: davek left us (snif).
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
eddycurrents sez to all: well damn... I am at around 86k words for my novel
System: davek left us (snif).
eddycurrents sez to all: and if Word underestimates
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese sez to all: 86K, a goodly piece of work.
eddycurrents sez to all: you are supposed to keep your novel between 90k and 110k words
eddycurrents sez to all: I wonder if I'm over already
camidon sez to all: Not linking to posts of the forum, just to the forum itself, and from the first page after the log in page of the forum
davek sez to all: I got kicked off. All kinds of error messages.
eddycurrents sez to all: I'm shooting for 95k using Word's count
camidon sez to all: it did it to me again when Dave quit; my screen froze
anneliese sez to all: Certainly, there can be a link to the forum home page.
davek sez to all: Did we decide if there would be a public read only part in the forum?
camidon sez to all: we must be intertwined
camidon sez to all: I don't think we did, Dave
eddycurrents sez to all: how about pages? my novel is 159 pages single spaced using courier 12 pt font .. that too big?
anneliese sez to all: What would be the purpose of a public area?
davek sez to all: Chris, sometimes your lines come in double.
anneliese sez to all: Word count is more important than page count.
camidon sez to all: I'm haunted, that's all.
camidon sez to all: You weren't talking to me, were you Eddy, I lost all the previous chat when I had to refresh
davek sez to all: The public are is so prospective members can see what we post. Also if you just want to see if a reply has been posted.
eddycurrents sez to all: I was just freaking
eddycurrents sez to all: have I written too much???
anneliese sez to all: That depends upon the story, eddy.
eddycurrents sez to all: 86k words according to Word, or 160 pages single spaced
camidon sez to all: You can never write too muchthere's always the backspace key
anneliese sez to all: Not all stories fit within the standards...however, it maybe easier to publish if it does.
anneliese sez to all: These days, it seems that novels are getting longer and longer.
eddycurrents sez to all: well I'm estimating another 10k words to finish, then editing will probably take out a few thousand
eddycurrents sez to all: but I have read in several places a first novel should be between 90k and 110k words
camidon sez to all: wtrg to Dave's public forum: 1) is it possible to have nonmembers read our forum posts without posting, and 2) Do we want that as a group if it is possible?
anneliese sez to all: I'd worry about making the story perfect first, then worry about word count.
eddycurrents sez to all: longer and it's too risky to publish, shorter and it may be less attractive to readers
camidon sez to all: I agree with Anneliese. Words and pages are trivial compared to the actually story
eddycurrents sez to all: Chris: 1 = I don't think so, not with this version of software, and 2) I prefer not
anneliese sez to all: On the other hand, Chris, the forum is a 'member benefit'. Maybe we should just keep it that way
eddycurrents sez to all:
eddycurrents sez to all: oops my smileys crapped out
anneliese sez to all: hmmmm, the smiley pics just broke.
camidon sez to all: I don't really have a feeling one way or another. I see benifits to both. I just want to make sure we decide as a group (or at least those present)
System: joeg left us (snif).
System: joeg joined us. Cheers!
davek sez to all: Maybe a poll in the forum?
eddycurrents sez to all: sure... post one
camidon sez to all: this is a test, to see if my screen froze when Joe left
davek sez to all: Heads up Chris, I'm going out and back in.
anneliese sez to all: I think that if there is good information on the forum, then it can be used to improve the website.. e.g., links & reference material.
System: davek left us (snif).
joeg sez to all: I got timed out
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
camidon sez to all: That would be affirmative
eddycurrents sez to all: you're too quiet
anneliese sez to all: The forum is the place to discuss these things, talk about them. the website is the generic reference.
camidon sez to all: joe, what do you think? If it was possible to have nonmembers read the forum without the ability to post, would you be fore it, or would you prefer the forum to stay "members" only (again I don't really care one way or the other)
eddycurrents sez to all: well casual readers won't be interested in digging through forum posts unless they want to join
anneliese sez to all: Good point, eddy
davek sez to all: I look at it as an enticement to new members. If they see some forum topic they want to participate in then they would be more likey to join.
camidon sez to all: I agree with that
camidon sez to all: Heck, most
camidon sez to all: whoops, heck, most "members' don't wade through the forum
anneliese sez to all: Personally, it wouldn't have that effect for me...I'd never bother digging through a forum for something.
camidon sez to all: I do see your point, Dave
camidon sez to all: <aside>I feel like a politican agreeing with everyone...
anneliese sez to all: Even the forums for the professional groups that I belong to...I'll repost the question because I can never find the answer in the archives.
davek sez to all: Not something we need to decide now. We need to fix the website and then advertise it.
anneliese sez to all: True, Dave
camidon sez to all: well said
joeg sez to all: I think visitors should be able to lurk...to a point
anneliese sez to all: They can lurk in the chats.
joeg sez to all: something the read may compel them to respond...then they have to register
eddycurrents sez to all: http://www.phpbb.com/features.php
eddycurrents sez to all: I looked for that feature, but didn't find it
eddycurrents sez to all: if you want to have a bash, go for it
anneliese sez to all: Think about what attracted you to SFWW....
camidon sez to all: I like the chat lurkings
joeg sez to all: some areas have to be members only...idea parking lot
davek sez to all: Good point Joe. It depends on what the software supports.
camidon sez to all: <scratching head> What attracted me? um, the website and the setup of the group
anneliese sez to all: Hardly any message boards allow non registered users. If we wanted to allow 'lurkers',
camidon sez to all: therefore, website most important, forum secondary
joeg sez to all: I wanted a reality check on my witing...went looking for a group
davek sez to all: It had a lot of activity. I joined another at the same time but it was pretty inactive.
anneliese sez to all: we'd have to create a 2tier user group. One for SFWW members, the other for guests.
joeg sez to all: and I wanted it to be online. I don't have a lot of time for hanging out at the coffee shop
camidon sez to all: That's seems like its starting to get complicate. The less complicated everything is the better .
anneliese sez to all: That is my take on the features page.
eddycurrents sez to all: that may be possible
eddycurrents sez to all: I'm looking at the group permissions function, never really dug into it but there may be something there
anneliese sez to all: I wouldn't set up anything just yet...we have other more pressing items to fix first.
camidon sez to all: I think Dave is right, let's focus on the website first, then worry about whether nonmembers should be able to us our forum if possible
anneliese sez to all: Yes, stick with the plan we set up before.
camidon sez to all: If we have to, we can always send out a group email and put the idea to a vote (if it's even possible)
joeg sez to all: how are we planning to get the word out?
davek sez to all: The whole point is to get enough active members so that our chats, critiques and posts are useful. If we need to relax the participation rule then we do it. If we have enough activity with the new web site then we don't bother.
camidon sez to all: Free downloadable candy, and lots of it. Maybe a few free coupons, and a party with the President of Ogden college. That's how we get the word out... (umm, just kidding)
anneliese sez to all: I'm going to check how/where we are listed within AOL, and make sure that our contact information there is correct as a first step.
camidon sez to all: <seriously now> Good first step, AOL does provide a lot of our members
anneliese sez to all: If we are comfortable with the website being where I've moved it, I'll make sure we have the correct link within the AOL Writers community.
camidon sez to all: Once the wepage is active again, I feel it will solve a lot of our activity problems
anneliese sez to all: I agree.
davek sez to all: I agree Chris.
anneliese sez to all: I think it is now time to begin researching where the old link exists, and send out revised info.
camidon sez to all: Though I do think we can tinker all we want with the site, adding anything that might be useful, as long as it's organized
eddycurrents sez to all: how about enforcing the participation rules? start dumping the deadweight
anneliese sez to all: My guess is that as soon as folks are directed to an active website, we'll begin attracting new members again.
anneliese sez to all: I did dump about half the inactive members over winter.
camidon sez to all: Eddy, I'd say wait until new members start to join before we trash all the deadweight. Over time some of that weight emerges from hibernation
davek sez to all: What is the cost of the inactive members? Not much I think.
anneliese sez to all: I'll put out another warning with the April update.
anneliese sez to all: Not much cost, but kind of depressing for the active members, I think.
camidon sez to all: aka, DM for one critique in December, (which I seem to bring up every chat)
anneliese sez to all: lol
camidon sez to all: I think I've had too much PreEaster candy
camidon sez to all: I agree with the depressing part. Every time I print out a story, I look at the group list and mentally check off who is active, who is not, and who I've never heard of before
anneliese sez to all: I think the most important thing is to get rid of all references to the old website.
eddycurrents sez to all:
camidon sez to all: agrees once again
anneliese sez to all: We can begin doing that now, and be updating the website all along.
camidon sez to all: Took the words right from my typing box, Anneliese
davek sez to all: I was going to work on that, but since I'm gone for two weeks if anyone wants to start OK. I'll check with that person when I get back.
camidon sez to all: Question: Anneliese, are you the only one who can update the page?
anneliese sez to all: I think the word should be put to the membership at large that if anyone notices a bad link or reference, the let us know.
eddycurrents sez to all: I found out how to make some forums read only, hidden, private etc.
anneliese sez to all: Well, at this point, I'd like to say that I'm the only one.
eddycurrents sez to all: so if we want to do it, it's possible
anneliese sez to all: WTG eddy!
camidon sez to all: So if we have ideas for changes and things, we should email you? Correct?
anneliese sez to all: Since eddy maintains the forum & chat, technically, he can also update the webpages.
anneliese sez to all: (i.e., he has the FTP access info)
camidon sez to all: It would be useful to have others able to update the site, but at the same time I like restricted access as with more access there is more chance for problems or abuse
System: joeg left us (snif).
camidon sez to all: You're just a bag of knowledge, Eddy, or perhaps good detective skills
System: joeg joined us. Cheers!
anneliese sez to all: If it makes sense to allow others to edit pages, that can be worked out.
camidon sez to all: <score, my screen didn't freeze this time when someone quit>
davek sez to all: Maybe a forum topic to propose changes.
camidon sez to all: Or, I typed to soon...
joeg sez to all: is there a way to change the timeout? I'm multitasking
anneliese sez to all: I like that idea, dave
eddycurrents sez to all: yep I can change it
eddycurrents sez to all: I saw it somewhere once
anneliese sez to all: I think you just have to post once in a while, joe
davek sez to all: OK Eddy, I just went to one of the forum topic and it said sorry ....
camidon sez to all: Rats. I lost all the previous chat. Ah well
anneliese sez to all: As long as I don't lose it, I'll post it.
eddycurrents sez to all: right now the timeout is set to 10 minutes
joeg sez to all: I'm typically quiet
joeg sez to all: I'll work on it
eddycurrents sez to all: I can up it to 20 min
anneliese sez to all: No, we're typically noisy!
eddycurrents sez to all: done
joeg sez to all: cool, thanks
camidon sez to all: Are there any other major thoughts about the website?
eddycurrents sez to all: now if you still time out....
eddycurrents sez to all: Dave: were you logged in? which topic?
davek sez to all: I can't get into SFWW Business at all. In some other indivual topis are protected.
anneliese sez to all: I wonder if the ISP did something...hmmmm
anneliese sez to all: All was fine this afternoon.
joeg sez to all: I'm getting in them all so far
eddycurrents sez to all: ok I see what I did... should be fixed now
davek sez to all: Now I can get into it.
eddycurrents sez to all: there are like 8 permissions possibilities
camidon sez to all: As with the last few chats/weeks, I think we're rolling down the right track
eddycurrents sez to all: gotta figure out the right one
anneliese sez to all: I agree, Chris, I feel like a lot of progress is being made.
camidon sez to all: If only, Elizabeth could make a chat... seeing as she's technically in charge
anneliese sez to all: eddy, I'm amazed that you can keep this stuff straight at all!
eddycurrents sez to all: I'm an engineer, it's in the blood
anneliese sez to all: I'm sure she will get back into the swing of things.
davek sez to all: I have to go. See you all in twoweeks. Bye.
camidon sez to all: Anneliese, I'll scrutinize the website a little more tonight, then type up my suggestions for you, i.e, a critique of the current website...
eddycurrents sez to all: me too night all
anneliese sez to all: Bye, have a good trip.
camidon sez to all: cya Dave, have fun on your tri
System: davek left us (snif).
anneliese sez to all: Thanks, Chris, I'd appreciate it.
eddycurrents sez to all: I snagged the chat log
camidon sez to all: I'll try to keep it short and organized, but um, you probably know my critiques by now...
eddycurrents sez to all: I'll send it to you
anneliese sez to all: Fantastic. Will you post it, or send it to me? (I missed the beginning)
anneliese sez to all: lol, Chris.
anneliese sez to all: Thanks, eddy
camidon sez to all: I just missed the last few lines, as when Dave last, my screen froze
eddycurrents sez to all: done
anneliese sez to all: That is so strange.
camidon sez to all: Would you like me to send it to the group or just to you?
camidon sez to all: It's kind of strange picking up a conversation and not knowing exactly what came before!
anneliese sez to all: Doesn't matter...if you think it will spark the group into participating, send it around.
camidon sez to all: good gravy we're thinking a lot alike tonight
joeg sez to all: to whom should we send links to the AOL SFWW site?
anneliese sez to all: too scary!
camidon sez to all: What do you think Joe, Eddy? should I do a critique of the current website and sent it to the group?
anneliese sez to all: I'm not sure, Joe, but you can certainly send links to me.
eddycurrents sez to all: sounds good to me
eddycurrents sez to all: be gentle
camidon sez to all: Heck, you two could do them to if you wanted and had the time
camidon sez to all: That would be interesting
eddycurrents sez to all:
joeg sez to all: found us on http://www.forwriters.com/groups.html#online
anneliese sez to all: I think that when we request other sites to link to SFWW, that should come from either me or Elizabeth.
camidon sez to all: Be gentle... I'll do my best. I blame my flippant tongue.
anneliese sez to all: Good work!
joeg sez to all: it's pointing to http://members.aol.com/sfwwmoder/
camidon sez to all: I agree about that request
anneliese sez to all: I'm sure that is not the only one, Joe
camidon sez to all: Those technically in charge, should use there SFWW email and virtual names

System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
anneliese sez to all: Hi CM!
camidon sez to all: hello again, Anneliese!
anneliese sez to all: Again? Have I been here before????
camidon sez to all: well, no, not this evening, but last week, and the one before that...
anneliese sez to all: Are you sure that was really me?
anneliese sez to all: Might have been a clone, you know.
camidon sez to all: Well, one can never be too sure... this being science fiction and everything!
anneliese sez to all: Exactly...have I met you before?
camidon sez to all: Don't think so, my dwarf half-brother has been impersonating me for serveral years now
anneliese sez to all: I thought you looked different, somehow.
camidon sez to all: yep, I've grown.
anneliese sez to all: Ahhh, that's it.
anneliese sez to all: Taller.
camidon sez to all: as a writer that is...
anneliese sez to all: cute.
camidon sez to all: oh goodnees, I think this chats have had an affect...
anneliese sez to all: These smilies are going to be the end of us yet.
camidon sez to all: THESE chats, not this one, well maybe this one too
camidon sez to all: I think you're right about that
anneliese sez to all: I don't seem to be able to get the smilies tonight...
anneliese sez to all: Parsing errors.
camidon sez to all: ah well, there just fun and games, and Eddy has quite a bit of fun with them
anneliese sez to all: That he does.
anneliese sez to all: I wonder if he'll check in tonight...I think Dave is on vacation this week.
camidon sez to all: yah, maybe a small gathering,
anneliese sez to all: Think I'll check my email...see if anyone is looking for me on AOL.
camidon sez to all: I'm glad to see that Juanita has taken up the "requesting a chat" idea. That's good
camidon sez to all: good idea
anneliese sez to all: So far, it's clear...no new spam, even.
anneliese sez to all: Yes, I was glad that Juanita chose to do the chat.
anneliese sez to all: I hoped she might be able to check in tonight as practice.
camidon sez to all: that would be good, but at least some of our ideas are filtering into the rest of the group, all be it slowly.
anneliese sez to all: Yes, I do think these chats, even if they are small, are having a good effect.
camidon sez to all: I didn't get to my proposed "website critique" as previosuly suggested (obviously seeing as there's no email from me) but this weekend I went through and should type up some thoughts for the group today or tomorrow
camidon sez to all: perhaps we'll get a few comments from that too
anneliese sez to all: I appreciate you going to the effort. Truth is, last week was so
anneliese sez to all: bad for me, work wise, that I would not have been able to do anything about your comments.
camidon sez to all: last week was slow in general all around, not unusual as of late
anneliese sez to all: true.
camidon sez to all: I think you're entitled to a few days off seeing as you've been most active recently, helping to rekindle interest in the goup
anneliese sez to all: Gee, thanks. :::blushing:::
camidon sez to all: lol
anneliese sez to all: This and Neopets has been my stress relief for quite a while, now.
camidon sez to all: Neopets? Should I even ask?
anneliese sez to all: Probably not. It is a virtual pet/game site. www.neopets.com
anneliese sez to all: Only go if you want/need another addiction.
camidon sez to all: lol, no thanks, online boggle is enough for me!
anneliese sez to all: Hey! Elizabeth is coming online.
anneliese sez to all: boggle is something I have not tried.
camidon sez to all: just one of those addictive games.
anneliese sez to all: was trying to log into iChat, but seem to have something wrong..
camidon sez to all: doh
anneliese sez to all: Keep forgetting that my AIM psw is not the same as my AOL psw.
anneliese sez to all: All better now....iChat is an instant messaging service.
camidon sez to all: psw?
anneliese sez to all: password
camidon sez to all: doh again, I see
anneliese sez to all: Well, I am a computer geek.
anneliese sez to all: It's a standard abbreviation we use.
camidon sez to all: I see again. I'm just a geek (can't progess to any major computer knowledge) except basic navigation skills
camidon sez to all: profess that is
anneliese sez to all: That isn't a bad thing.
anneliese sez to all: Most computer skills are worthless after about 3 years.
camidon sez to all: I do agree. I know enough to survive and not have to constantly ask questions to those more knowledgable then me
anneliese sez to all: And the number of more knowledgeable than you probably keeps decreasing.
camidon sez to all: Vell, any new thought about the website or anything else SFWW relate?
anneliese sez to all: Well, I've been looking at all those links you guys have been putting on the message board.
anneliese sez to all: I definately think those should be moved to the website.
camidon sez to all: <Thought entering head> If Juanita's chat goes well in two weeks, we should add it to the chat logs on the website
anneliese sez to all: Elizabeth and I are exploring how to get the website listed on AOL.
anneliese sez to all: Absolutely. And I will get last week's chat posted one of these days (as well as tonight's).
camidon sez to all: That's good. If we have to have AOL chats, lets have AOL help us out as much as possible
anneliese sez to all: Exactly.
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
camidon sez to all: Do we/should we post, not story related chats on the website?
anneliese sez to all: Hi Elizabeth!
Elizabeth sez to all: hi there! Didn't realize that I would have to register again.
camidon sez to all: well phoeey, Elizabeth did it to me too!
anneliese sez to all: I don't know. I guess it depends on the content and usefulness.
anneliese sez to all: But they still can be posted on the message board.
anneliese sez to all: I'm surprised that you did have to register, Elizabeth.
camidon sez to all: Hi Elizabeth. <any previous chat is now missing for me>
anneliese sez to all: It must have been a while since you last visited.
camidon sez to all: as Elizabeth seems to have Dave K's disease of freezing my screen!
anneliese sez to all: Oh, no! I wonder what causes that.
camidon sez to all: maybe it's jus the third person in the chat...
Elizabeth sez to all: So am I, but it's okay. It has been a while since I've been to the chat room.
anneliese sez to all: I don't seem to have the problem. :::crossing fingers and toes:::
camidon sez to all: lol, oh well
Elizabeth sez to all: I didn't mean to, CM. Really.
anneliese sez to all: I see the smilies work for you.
Elizabeth sez to all: brb, dog needs attention
camidon sez to all: still getting the bugs worked out here
anneliese sez to all: So, CM, did you get my answer to your question about posting
anneliese sez to all: non story chats on the website?
camidon sez to all: Anneliese, did you get my post about the non-story related chats not being on the website?
camidon sez to all: lol
anneliese sez to all: mind meld!
camidon sez to all: No, i didn;t then.
anneliese sez to all: And the answer was:
anneliese sez to all: anneliese sez to all: I don't know. I guess it depends on the content and usefulness.
anneliese sez to all: But they still can be posted on the message board.
camidon sez to all: I that makes good sense. I agree with them all being on the message board
anneliese sez to all: I'm trying to decide how many really ancient ones that I can dig up should go on the message board.
camidon sez to all: imo I don't think we need website reconstruction chats posted on the website, it might give prospective members the wrong idea, or maybe it wouldn't.
anneliese sez to all: I don't either, and I'm not too worried about prospective members' ideas.
camidon sez to all: I'd say don't look too hard. If you have some easily accessible, great, but this is a scifi group, and we should be more concerned with the future than the past!
Elizabeth sez to all: bak
anneliese sez to all: But, I see these as 'team building' chats that are still useful,
anneliese sez to all: but not to the world at large.
anneliese sez to all: So, how's it been, Elizabeth?
camidon sez to all: I agree
anneliese sez to all: And I agree with you...really old chats aren't going to have much meaning to current members.
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
anneliese sez to all: Timed out?
camidon sez to all: Hmm, did my screen freeze again?
anneliese sez to all: I'm here
camidon sez to all: Not yet, but we'll see what happens if Elizabeth returns
anneliese sez to all: What version of browser are you using?
camidon sez to all: iE 5
anneliese sez to all: OS?
camidon sez to all: Win98
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
camidon sez to all: (I'm just a few years behind...)
anneliese sez to all: You might be able to download a newer version of IE, which might help.
anneliese sez to all: WB, Elizabeth!
Elizabeth sez to all: bak...IE barfed on me.
camidon sez to all: Hello again, Elizabeth
anneliese sez to all: Or think about Mozilla. I think that is what Eddy is using.
Elizabeth sez to all: Before that I had to play catch with Aiko, a.k.a. the Whippet of Mass Destruction.
anneliese sez to all: Aiko?
Elizabeth sez to all: She's about a year old, but still very much a puppy.
anneliese sez to all: Oh, very energetic.
Elizabeth sez to all: Japanese for "sweetheart", also linked to the word for indigo blue.
camidon sez to all: I probably could, get a newer IE, but when it comes to updating software, i'm rather lazy. As long as it works, why do I need a newer version? This chat may be a reason though
anneliese sez to all: Interesting connection.
camidon sez to all: Whippet of Mass Destruction, very nice.
Elizabeth sez to all: Her coloring is blue-gray, fawn and white. Very pretty dog. Looks like a small greyhound.
anneliese sez to all: Yes, unfortunately, these newer scripts work much better with newer software.
anneliese sez to all: Does sound like a pretty dog.
Elizabeth sez to all: Yes, we have a WMD.
camidon sez to all: true, true, anneliese
camidon sez to all:
anneliese sez to all: Of course, having the latest versions is no guarantee.
Elizabeth sez to all: have I told you about her secret saliva weaponry?
anneliese sez to all: Sometimes, if the version is too new, things can be worse.
anneliese sez to all: [my smilies aren't working]
Elizabeth sez to all: That might be my problem. My computer's only a few months old.
anneliese sez to all: Oh, I don't know if I want to know about those weapons.
camidon sez to all: Gosh, it's been so long, Elizabeth, are we ready to discuss the saliva weaponary?
Elizabeth sez to all: The script was causing all sorts of errors. My husband switched the error display off...we'll see how long this lasts.
camidon sez to all: Should we be worried?
anneliese sez to all: Well, the other problem with new computers, is that they notoriously ship with bad/old versions of software.
Elizabeth sez to all: She'll chase you down and lick you to death.
anneliese sez to all: Especially with respect to browser software.
Elizabeth sez to all: Sorry about your smileys, Anneliese.
camidon sez to all: We don't need, Eddy, we can play with the smiles without him :tongue:
anneliese sez to all: I'll live. Just wish the scrolling worked.
camidon sez to all: Strange, my scolling works, but I freeze when certain people enter and leave
anneliese sez to all: Well, I see yours just fine...just can't pull up the selection window.
anneliese sez to all: Some nights the scrolling works, other times it does not.
Elizabeth sez to all: My scrolling isn't working either. Just sits there until I move the arrow down.
Elizabeth sez to all: Not fatal, but kind of a pain in the rear.
camidon sez to all: Since you're here, Elizabeth, any thought about the SFWW website (applause to Anneliese) or the group in general?
anneliese sez to all: Yep. I'm using Netscape 7.1, OS 10.2.6
anneliese sez to all: :::bows:::
Elizabeth sez to all: Well, I sent an e-mail to the Writing & Publishing leader, to see if we can get a link from that group on AOL to our website.
Elizabeth sez to all: And we probably need to let certain people (SF Amy, some of the other people who've linked to SFWW) to give them our new addy.
anneliese sez to all: I guess we could ask him to update the chat listing to include the website.
Elizabeth sez to all: Oops, let them know our new address, so that they can update their links.
camidon sez to all: That sounds good
anneliese sez to all: I thought that when we first set up the new AOL chat, that we had a reminder service we could enable...know what happened to that?
camidon sez to all: IT's great that Amy still keeps in touch. Great resource for the group, and success story to boot
Elizabeth sez to all: I don't know what happened with that. I'll look into it...but we used to send out the reminders, and then one day they just stopped.
Elizabeth sez to all: I'm sorry to say that I haven't kept up with the AOL chatter as much as I should have these last few months.
anneliese sez to all: No problem.
anneliese sez to all: Having chats weekly is the only way I can consistently remember them.
Elizabeth sez to all: Yeah, and it's probably a good way to get more people involved.
anneliese sez to all:
camidon sez to all: I agree yet again
Elizabeth sez to all: yeah, it's late by you, isn't it? Nighters.
anneliese sez to all: [had to change the color scheme]
anneliese sez to all: Yep, about that time.
Elizabeth sez to all: yay! Anneliese has smileys!
anneliese sez to all: It only makes getting up in the morning hard.
camidon sez to all: A pleasure as always Anneliese,
anneliese sez to all: It's awful being a nightowl.
anneliese sez to all: I'm glad you could make it.
Elizabeth sez to all: Took me a few minutes to get that...I hate daylight savings time. I'm dragging my rear for a week afterwards.
camidon sez to all: see you in two weeks for Juanita's chat. Put in a good word for me at the AOL chat.
Elizabeth sez to all: will do, CM!
anneliese sez to all: We'll miss you.
camidon sez to all: It's good to see you too, Elizabeth
Elizabeth sez to all: good night, all! Glad you could make it!
anneliese sez to all: At least tonight I was able to show up on time.
anneliese sez to all: Good night.
Elizabeth sez to all: Next time I'll be better. Kiddo was something else tonight.
anneliese sez to all: Must be that age.
Elizabeth sez to all: He could wear the Energizer bunny out.
camidon sez to all: gnight you two
Elizabeth sez to all: Definitely. He just doesn't stop...running around or talking.
Elizabeth sez to all: nighters CM!
anneliese sez to all: niters
Elizabeth sez to all: talk to you later!

SFWW chats take place weekly on Monday nights at 10pm EST.

All chats take place in our private chat room at: http://www.acmfox.com/sfwwchat

For the current chat schedule, check out the [url=http://www.sfwritersworkshop.org/calendar/month.php?cat_id=1]SFWW calendar[/url].

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camidon sez to everybody: Glad you could make it tonight, Mike
emptykube sez to everybody: how is everyone?
davek sez to everybody: I'm fine.
emptykube sez to everybody: thanks. just thought I'd see if anyone was around
camidon sez to everybody: Whether we talk about anything significant or just shoot the breeze
anneliese sez to everybody: Good here (but cold).
camidon sez to everybody: Doing good, ty
davek sez to everybody: Any word from the web site manager?
anneliese sez to everybody: Well, I am still trying to find out if our old webmaster is in this hemisphere.
camidon sez to everybody: A good start would be narrowing down the hemisphere
anneliese sez to everybody: I hope to hear something in the next day or so.
anneliese sez to everybody: Yep. It would be good to narrow things at least that much.
camidon sez to everybody: MIke, do you have any thoughts about the website?
camidon sez to everybody: That's been my topic of interest recently
emptykube sez to everybody: i think its a good idea to update our web presence. some of our stuff goes back to when sfamy ran the group.
anneliese sez to everybody: So true.
camidon sez to everybody: Splendid, I can't imagine anyone in the group is NOT for updating the site
emptykube sez to everybody: and the story/critique excerpts are from members we haven't seen in years
anneliese sez to everybody: Who may have moved to other hemispheres as well.
camidon sez to everybody: Good point.
emptykube sez to everybody: and aside from that I'm really sick of the black and stars background
anneliese sez to everybody: My sense is that we will be redoing and moving the site soon.
camidon sez to everybody: If we don't hear or find out where Mark is by next Monday, do we move onto step 2?
anneliese sez to everybody: (and I have always hated the background)
emptykube sez to everybody: lol
camidon sez to everybody: I enjoyed it, but it does have a 1960's feel
anneliese sez to everybody: I have a note to Amy now. If she doesn't have an active contact f

System: anneliese joins the chat.
anneliese sez to all: Hi CM!
camidon sez to all: hello there!
anneliese sez to all: I wonder if anyone else will show. I did send the invite kind of late.