SFWW Chats

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anneliese: Hi Dave!
System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi CM!
davek: HI guys.
camidon: Howdy
anneliese: My, we are a rowdy bunch!
camidon: Dave, I won't be getting to Fort Collins until Wed, the 20th, now
camidon: Had a date change for the children's lit group I was going to go to.
camidon: Anneliese, so you're partaking of Mikes little scheme too?
anneliese: What scheme would that be?
davek: The 20th should be fine.
camidon: Just NanoWrimo
anneliese: I can't decide what I'll be writing though. Either something I've never finished or perhaps something GenE?
camidon: So many options. That's the problem I'm having. What do I buckle down and work on?
anneliese: So many unfinished stories, for me.
anneliese: Of course, I'm pretty good at first drafts...just don't seem to ever go past that.
camidon: Are you considering it Dave? NanoWrimo?
davek: My big problem with nanowrimo is that you have to send in the words for them to verify. I plan on writing longhand and typing them in would double my work.
anneliese: You aren't required to do the verification part.
davek: Then why njot just do it when yo want.
anneliese: It's just an additional incentive to actually get the words on paper.
davek: Maybe this is a way to get me to start typing in my first drafts.
camidon: I agree with Anneliese. It gives me a goal. It'd be fun if you did it too, Dave, just within our group even if you don't officially sign up.
anneliese: I don't know...I was planning to handwrite also.
davek: I'm going to work on an outline this month and if it comes along enough maybe I'll sign up.
camidon: I sketch my ideas in notebooks sometims, but 90% of the time the first readable draft is on the comp.
anneliese: The problem with me and comp. is that I can always find something else to do with it first.
camidon: Ah, yes, there is that problem...
davek: I need a world crises but I'm too much of - why can't we all just get along to come up with a plausable secenario.
anneliese: What sort of crisis?
anneliese: Where does it lead?
camidon: Btw, Dave, just think how much more preparing manuscripts would suck if we still just had typewriters.
davek: It is the vackground for the conflict for my protagonist. I'm thinking of expanding my "Out of the Box" story .
davek: He is that air force guy who is always getting into trouble with computers.
anneliese: Oh, yea. Do you want a war, or just a major conflict?
davek: Not a hot war. More spy like and old cold war like.
anneliese: What would happen if some form of terrorist group began contaminating fossil fuels?
anneliese: Make them radio-active? Or at least threaten to.
anneliese: Greenpeace gone bad.
davek: RIght now I'm thinking that the leader that Jack was trying to drop is more anti-US but elected. The president is very idealistic so he wants him back. The usual suspects want the current non-elected leader in because he is more pro-US.
camidon: Pick a random developing world power and put them at odds with someone else. Say India, or Brazil, or someone else that has the bomb, or perhaps, something worse.
davek: I just finished reading Dan Brown's Angels and Demons. I liked it. VEry much like Indiana Jones - always action.
anneliese: Why does the US care at all about this country?
camidon: Are you leaning that way for your story? Go, go, go. Action-adventure?
davek: Yeah, action. I think it would be easier for me to write.
camidon: It always keeps things interesting at least
davek: I think ANgels and Demons takes place over one maybe two days.
anneliese: So, a Jimmy Carter-like president, but a congress led by 'realists'.
davek: NOt necessarily led, but enough to cause trouble.
davek: Maybe a Manchurian Candidate, 7 days in May met tom Clancy.
anneliese: Naw, make them rabble all the way...the country elected the current prez, but no one can figure out why.
camidon: Would a lot of the story take place in the congress? With the members of congress?
davek: Too realistic, this is fiction.
anneliese: Might be the Pentagon & cabinet who are the 'realists' trying to control this idealist prez.
davek: Or a defense secretary.
anneliese: Even better.
anneliese: And the little country in question then becomes important because of strategic alliances that are crumbling.
davek: I'm trying to think of how to get every group doing something that they would normally be against.
anneliese: Or at least strained.
anneliese: Fear is the easiest motivation.
anneliese: The US is out on a limb because it lets its business leaders set policy...the rest of the world has seen otherwise.
davek: Or power.
davek: Business leaders in power is too done.
anneliese: Yes, taken that way, it is. I'm still associating...kind of slow brain-wise here.
camidon: Then put some one atypical in power. An ex-union leader as president, that's pretty unlikely
davek: Regan?
camidon: Or someone really intelligent--they don't go into politics very often (Woodow Wilson you're the exception)
davek: The only real quality is - idealism. He wants to put the elected leader back even if it seems against US interests.
anneliese: A prez that could see more than 2 steps ahead...be a real long-range planner could be interesting. No one would be able to figure him/her out.
camidon: The intelligent ones (scientists for example) are usully some of the greates idealists. heck they're creating things that don't exist yet, that's idealism to do something or find out something thats never been known or done.
davek: BUt the pre is not the main character. Important but not really in the story.
anneliese: No, but his actions are what cause our mc's situation?
davek: There is lots to work out. ANd most will either not be worked out or change after I start writing.
davek: I wonder how many twists need to be in the book. A&D has a lot.
camidon: And so goes the creative process on forever, always twisting our minds into spaghetti
davek: I got the spaghetti part down.
anneliese:
davek: WHat did we do?
anneliese: Thought you needed a little action.
davek: LOL
anneliese: I guess I'd just start with you mc...who might not know too much of the situation at first, and see what happens...what he discovers.
camidon: So what else is new in SFWWland, Anneliese?
anneliese: Have you checked out the updated wiki?
davek: Since when?
camidon: How long ago was it updated?
anneliese: Friday? Give or take...maybe sooner.
camidon: I don't think so. What's new?
anneliese: Well, first thing, you should make sure that you access the wiki through sfwritersworkshop.org
anneliese: It has been moved to the new web host. If you follow the link from the home page, it should look quite different, although content is the same.
davek: The experimental wiki?
camidon: Is that different from the current website link?
anneliese: Nope, not the experimental wiki...I'll be trashing that one soon.
anneliese: It depends...if you are still looking at www.acmfox.com/sfww, then yes, it is different.
camidon: OKay, I'll bring up the new site then. I've only been going through the acmfox site, that's where my link was
anneliese: I need to put redirects in for the old host to go to the new host.
anneliese: If you've been adding content in the last week, you'll have to add it again, or let me know and I'll move it.
camidon: I don't think I have
davek: It looks cleaner. Nicer.
camidon: I forget, is this a permanent change, should I change all my links?
anneliese: Yes, this is a permanent change.
camidon: If I recall correctly, I haven't added anything since when I commented on your page, Anneliese. Should everything be good before that?
davek: Is it the same TWiki?
anneliese: I think so, CM. I did move the scope page.
anneliese: Yes, it is the same TWiki. Updated software, updated page layouts and...
anneliese: drumroll please....
anneliese: Search works!
camidon: Cool
davek: Yeah, cool.
camidon: Okay dokey, all posts from Sept are there, so all is well.
camidon: It looks more organized, less cluttered. More easy to move around
anneliese: Yes, I thought I had everything...but if you guys were still using the old one, I might have missed something.
anneliese: It is definately better looking. I'm going to do a little fine-tuning in a couple spots, but overall, I think it is a great improvement.
anneliese: And it should be clear now, that if you see the old layout, that you're in the wrong place?
camidon: Did Greg or Bob contact either or you? They dropped me emails saying they were still definately interested.
anneliese: Nope.
anneliese: If its all right with you, Dave, I'd like to make the GenE page, more like a home page with links and move most of its content to sub-pages...
anneliese: ...or you could do it!
camidon: I got back to them, saying essentially cool, we'd value all your input
anneliese: I'm glad to see that others are still thinking about it.
davek: That's fine. I'm surprised at how it grew.
anneliese: Growth is good
camidon: I'd be good if they did get involved. Bob was wondering if his type of stories, "slipstream" would have a home in this. I said, sure, why not, there's no need to be restrictive. The whole idea is to create this shared universe and see what comes out of it.
davek: Speaking of growth, any new members?
anneliese: Nope,
camidon: I'm still pretty excited about all we've accomplished thus far, just the few of us. It's been a few months, but we've had a lot of good discussions.
anneliese: I agree.
davek: Yeah, but we need new people.
camidon: and there's a lot of good info and posts on the site. I think this whole project will really hit home when someone actually crafts that first story.
camidon: Agreed, both new memeber in the group, and more group members for the project.
anneliese: Anything we should attempt to accomplish before next week?
davek: Write a few thousand words?
camidon: If it's okay with you, Anneliese, I'd like to move the Project Scope link to just about the Discussion Links, therefore just below the story log
anneliese: I think I can do that...or do you want to?
camidon: I cranked out about 10,000 words in 5 days recently. I was pretty happy about that.
anneliese: Actually, do anything you want with the page!
anneliese: Oh that's fantastic! Cheers from the peanut gallery!
camidon: I'll lay that on you, Anneliese. I certain you're the better WiKI tinkerer. I just follow you and Dave's lead, and pick it up little by little.
davek: Good practice for nanowrimo.
anneliese: Exactly on target for nanowrimo.
camidon: That's what I was thinking, Dave. And guess what. 87.8% of it was awful, but not all of it.
davek: How about a wiki web on getting new members?
anneliese: What do you mean?
davek: Brainstorm ideas on how to find/attract/sign up new members.
anneliese: Probably makes sense to start it as a section off the Main web, maybe?
davek: Or does the forum get more traffic?
anneliese: My guess is that the forum gets more traffic.
anneliese: So, if we start a wiki page, then we should announce it in the forum.
camidon: I think it's all about the website. Until that's visible, anyone searching and finding the old one is going to skip us.
davek: LEt's start it there then and move to the wiki if it seems a better place.
anneliese: Have to agree with you there, CM.
camidon: The group never had a membership problem until the website stagnated.
camidon: I agree, Dave.
anneliese: I will try to work on that website issue again...had a rough week and didn't email Mark yet. Sorry.
camidon: No worries. Doing all this WIKI stuff is responsibility enough.
anneliese: You're too kind ::blushing::
camidon: no, just honest. You've put a lot of time into the group, and it's appreciated.
davek: Yes it is.
anneliese: Thanks. I wouldn't do it if it wasn't fun, though.
anneliese: But I do think that I have to wrap it up for tonight.
camidon: Then again, as they say, what you put into something is what you get out of it.. The three of us must be getting a lot out of SFWW. Hmmmm.
anneliese: I know I am
davek: Yeah, and it is time to go. See you all next week. AOL right?
camidon: yes, the hour did disappear as it always does!
anneliese: AOL next week.
camidon: I won't be there, of course. Stir up some fun for the log.
davek: BYe.
camidon: gnight
anneliese: We'll try. And we will miss you.
System: davek left us (snif).
anneliese: Niters

You have just entered room

anneliese: Hi CM!
camidon: Eesh, when do you get here! I haven't checked in in 5 minutes or so!
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Only just got here.
anneliese: Hi Dave!
camidon: It's good to see your virtual existens though!
davek: HI guys.
camidon: That's good.
camidon: Hey, Dave
camidon: What's new with u2? Is there a topic tonight?
anneliese: I was checking your posts on the wiki...got looking for something to do ratings and learned that there is an upgrade to the wiki available.
anneliese: Open topic...or muse discussion?
anneliese: I just got the subs posted on the wiki.
camidon: Cool. I've been perusing the GenE stuff every day these last few days. Just posted some stuff regarding your GenE muses, Anneliese. Hope that was okay.
anneliese: Absolutely!
camidon: On your own personal muse page that is.
anneliese: Also, I'm in the process of moving sfwriters.org to a new host.
camidon: I thought it would be, but just in case I figured I'd ask and write disclaimers!
anneliese: I'm going to check them out, CM.
anneliese: If I don't like something...I can always delete it
camidon: Yep!
camidon: You there, Dave?
davek: I haven't been doing much. Some kind of funk I suppose.
anneliese: As you all get more comfortable with the wiki, I have some things I'd like your opinions on..
camidon: (I like the toilet smiley way too much)
camidon: You mean writing in general, Dave, or GenE related funk?
anneliese: So do I, CM...only I can't seem to get to it...so you'll just have to flush for me, I guess
davek: Everything. I', in a low energy mode.
camidon: LOL. Anneliese, ask away about WIKI stuff if now seems to work. After all, there's no topic tonight. (Although I'll be the first to admit I have little knowledge of the underworking of WIKI)
anneliese: I know that feeling, Dave.
anneliese: Well, I tried installing another wiki, phpWiki on the new host....
anneliese: The main features that I like about it are a better login mechanism and search capability.
camidon: That's no fun, Dave. We've probably all been there. A few days ago I got 3 rejections on the same day. Talk about a major depressor. 1 at a time I can handle, bull all at once is playing dirty. Took me a while to slip out of that funk.
anneliese: Our current wiki, TWiki, is much stronger in its ability to structure and organize content.
anneliese: So now I'm torn...basically it is search vs. structure.
davek: I never used the search, so I'm not sure which that votes for.
anneliese: Well, searching doesn't work in the current wiki, so I yanked it from most of the templates.
anneliese: Search would be useful, for example, when you wanted to find all the pages that contained a reference to GenX
anneliese: Right now, we don't have that capability...or the capability to list pages that have had recent changes.
davek: That explains that. But if the structure is good than finding the pages would be easy.
anneliese: Exactly. I get very lost when there is no defined structure, so I feel that structure is very important...but that could just be me.
davek: WHat is the problem with structure on the php version?
camidon: I think structure is more important and this initial stage. I agree, Dave.
anneliese: phpWiki simply doesn't have the facility of 'webs' or content structuring that we are using now.
camidon: Searhes would be useful, but not at the expense of easy and definied structuring, IMO
anneliese: If you look at the Write web, you see that I have set it up with a strong structure.
anneliese: The Worlds web is less structured right now, but gets more so as we develop more content.
davek: I suspect that the 80-20 rule applies. 80% of us will use only 20% of the capability. Don't spend too much effort on adding soething that most of us won't use.
anneliese: There might be a way to simulate structure in phpWiki, but I haven9;t gotten there yet.
anneliese: All I know is that as I was going through our wiki tonight, I'd have liked to use a search capability.
davek: WHat were you searching for?
anneliese: CM's posts.
anneliese: And other changes since last I looked.
camidon: Agree, Dave. In face, I suspect quite a few SFWWers are frightened of the WIKI capabilities and don't know how to utilize it, i.e., simply editing pages and using the standard formatting
anneliese: I use the WebStatistics pages a lot to track changes.
davek: A change history would be good.
anneliese: I admit that the wiki was pretty daunting to me the first time I approached it.
davek: I had to simulate that by asking people to list the topic and date at the top of the page.
camidon: Anneliese, there is that one GenE page that has us list our last update, but that's only for the in-depth GenE discussion, and not the GenEdecision page. Maybe we need to have and update log even earlier in the WIKIsite?
anneliese: However, once it gets populated with our content, it becomes much easier to understand.
anneliese: I can build an automatic update log...that would be easier to maintain, I think.
davek: CM, there is a trade off between having users list there changes and they're actually doing it. Ask for too much and you'll get nothing.
camidon: yes, it does, Anneliese. I consider myself fairly knowledge about computers, and the WIKIsite took me a while before I felt moderately comfortable. I'm still no programmer though, and so I don't know how to do 4/5 of the fancy WIKI formatting.
camidon: True, Dave.
anneliese: Well, there are some new formatting plug-ins and page layouts that look MUCH easier to work with.
davek: We're trying to use the wiki as half way betwee a wiki and a forum.
anneliese: Yes, as the best of both.
camidon: It's funny, really, as I was only an hour ago surfing the WIKI site and wondering about people ease of use with it. My thoughts drifted to having a WIKI class for the SFWW group so others become comfortable with it. However, there's no need for this now, as there's very few people active in the group at the moment. Perhaps thisis something to consider if we start seeing new faces.
anneliese: That sounds like a great idea, CM.
davek: Is there an e-mail front end? Someway of emailing to the wiki and having it show up?
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth!
Elizabeth: hello everybody!
anneliese: I'm not sure I understand your question, Dave.
davek: Hi Elizabeth.
camidon: Hi Elizabeth
anneliese: We're talking about the wiki, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth: Ah. Haven't visited it lately...bad moderator!
davek: Is there a way to e-amil to sfww.wiki.worlds.gene so that all email are added to a particular page?
anneliese: Now, you're going to make me jealous with that flusher!
Elizabeth: The last time I tried to update it (which was a while ago) it wouldn't take my updates.
camidon: Perhaps a chat dedicated to how to manipulate the WIKI environment, and how not to be frightened of the editing page, and all the fancy formatting needed. Something to think about in the future.
davek: Any new members on the horizon?
anneliese: Re: email posts...I'll have to check into that.
camidon: I've found, Elizabeth, sometimes you have to ask it twice, and it works fine. Oh yeah, and toss in a please.
anneliese: lol
Elizabeth: pretty please with sugar on top?
davek: How do you bribe a computer?
anneliese: I think the first time after you register is problematic, with the way the login works.
camidon: lol, don't use sugar as it makes the keys sticky
anneliese: After that, it should be fine.
Elizabeth: lol!
Elizabeth: I offered it more RAM, but I don't think I can follow through on my bribe...
camidon: Seriously though, sometimes when I try to change things it tells me I can't/gives me an error message. Then I go back, press the "save changes" again, and it works fine. Anyone had this problem?
Elizabeth: could be a problem.
anneliese: Not here.
davek: I really liked the challenge. Are we supposed to critique on the wiki?
davek: I've had that problem.
camidon: In fact, just tonight it did it too me twice at to different times. But I went back, checked my text, changed nothing, and clicked the save button again and it worked fine.
davek: It says something like - transactio too large.
camidon: yah, yah, yah, Dave.
anneliese: Oh, yes, I might have had that once...like you, I went back, hit save again and it worked.
Elizabeth: I couldn't get my updates to take at all.
anneliese: But I've made tons of changes and had very little problem.
Elizabeth: But it's been a while since I last tried to update the wiki.
anneliese: What browser, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth: IE.
anneliese: That could be the problem.
camidon: Do you mean, the writing challenge? Like the muse story Dave?
davek: CM, yes.
anneliese: Stories are now posted.
Elizabeth: Should I try Netscape or Mozilla and see if I have better luck?
davek: Couldn't hurt.
anneliese: I use Netscape or Safari almost exclusively.
camidon: I was wondering about that too, Dave. About critiquing them on WIKi.
anneliese: Mozilla should work.
camidon: After years of prodding, Eddy finally got me to switch to Mozilla as well, so that's what I use too.
anneliese: Foxfire is also good
anneliese: Or is it Firefox?
camidon: Can we do that? Critique the Challenge stories, such as the Muse one, on the WIKI site?
davek: I'm sererously cosidering send mine into the Wrider's DIgest short short competition. I would like some feedback.
davek: Firefox.
camidon: it's Firefox. THat's whatI have, Mozilla Firefox
Elizabeth: I'll check it out, thanks.
anneliese: I think I keep getting it confused with the How To books.
anneliese: Unless you do a lot with Shockwave files, you'll love it.
camidon: I don't see why we can't post crits on the wiki site wtg to the Challenges. I'll do one for you shortly, Dave.
davek: CM, thanks.
anneliese: I agree, CM. You can use the comments box, or create a linked page for your crit.
camidon: np, Dave. Besides, you're one of the only ones who has been giving me written crits of my Elevator story!! Thanks for that!
davek: no problem.
davek: We really need to up the participation. And membership.
camidon: Since wiki has been our topic, a few quick GenE things. 1) I made a decision as to the start date, and the timeframe. 2) I added a lot of discussion about why the ship would go and who would be responsible for it (governments, religion, etc)
anneliese: All good stuff, too.
camidon: Agreed, as always, Dave
davek: I'll have to check it out tomorrow.
camidon: As for critiques, I don't think my drawn out submission of the children's fantasy book has helped. There are just some folks who aren't interested in reading that at all.
camidon: But then again, there haven't been many submission in the queue no matter what.
anneliese: I don't know about that, CM. I'm noticing low participation in many areas (not SFWW related).
anneliese: I don't really understand it, but it seems wierd to me.
camidon: BTW, looking at the "Regular's Table" who is: kavinga?
davek: It's that fall funk. Like I've got. Shorting days. Coolong days.
camidon: What do you mean not SFWW related?
anneliese: In other groups/organizations that I am a member of.
Elizabeth: September's a busy month in general, especially if you have school-age kids.
anneliese: (which is kind of good since my email is wonky)
camidon: Just like that Summer funk (weather's too nice to write), and Spring funk (weather's just turning nice so its to hard to write) or Winter funk, (it's too dreary to write) :toilet:
davek: It's contagious.
camidon: Not meaning to belittle your current funk, dave
davek: It's always nice to be part of a bigger group.
anneliese: But I like our little group
anneliese: There may not be many of us, but the chemistry is good.
camidon: Agreed, Anneliese, and even is SFWW does get large again, I think there are some small group bonds that will last a while.
anneliese: The Muse challenge shows that, if nothing else.
davek: It is good, but a few more members would be good too.
anneliese: Absolutely.
Elizabeth: True. Do I need to start submitting stuff again? Or will that be too much of the "inner circle" thing?
camidon: However, related to lack of members/participation, there are always reasons/excuses for it. All the few of us can do is be proactive with group related activities, and I think we've done that to the best of our abilities.
davek: NO. Please submit.
camidon: Please, submit, Elizabeth! submit!
anneliese: Yes! Please submit something!
camidon: Espescially since there are so many wide open critique slots.
Elizabeth: brb
davek: Of course there is that second meaning of the word submit.
anneliese: Yea, like from now until December.
anneliese: lol, Dave!
camidon: The only think I tihnk we still need to work on is gettig our website visible to drawn in the new blood. Marks, old SFWW site is killing us.
davek: No luck on gettng AOL to allow us to at least put a link on the old page?
anneliese: Yes. I do wish we could do something about that. I'm going to try a few more emails.
camidon: oh my golly, Dave! That was not my intention!
camidon: Until we get our website visible, I think it's just going to be us, the small but fun and dedicated group.
anneliese: At least within the AOL search engine, my page follows Mark's page, so folks find us.
Elizabeth: bad Dave!
davek: Is Mark still a member?
Elizabeth: I'm back. Kiddo has a cough and lately he's coughing so hard he triggers his gag reflex. Blecch.
camidon: If Mark's old site is still killing us in a few months (say by Dec), then I would even advocating a name change or something so that we can get our Group back to center stage of Scifi/fantasy/horror writing groups
anneliese: Mark is a 'retired' member.
davek: Retired from SFWW or AOL?
anneliese: Sorry to hear that about Kiddo.
camidon: We're just in his websites shadow. We need to get were it counts, on top of the search list from search engines.
anneliese: Retired from SFWW. He's in the military.
camidon: ugh, that's icky, Elizabeth. Sorry to hear that. Hope the kiddo feels better soon.
Elizabeth: He's not running a fever or anything, just coughs a lot. I think he was jumping around the bedroom when he should be asleep--that's how it usually happens.
Elizabeth: My tolerance for icky has gone way up since I had Colin.
anneliese: lol
anneliese: Ah, to be a parent.
Elizabeth: Last I heard, Mark was back in the States, but he's now liaison for something-or-other at the White House. I suspect he doesn't have a lot of free time.
davek: I went direct to grandparent. Much cleaner.
anneliese: I'm going to try one of his old email addresses, see if it generates anything.
Elizabeth: lol! I hear grandparenting is lots more fun anyway.
Elizabeth: At least that's what my parents say.
camidon: Lol, Dave. I'll have to see about that for the future...
davek: Usually there is a big up front fee, but I avoided that by marrying late.
Elizabeth: Anneliese, let me give you the last e-mail addy he used. I think it's different from either of his AOL IDs.
camidon: Any ideas how to get our current website or the SFWW name/group more visible--outside AOL?
anneliese: I will spend some more time trying to get other sites to update their links.
Elizabeth: Anneliese, try HamilMac@comcast.net.
anneliese: That should be the best thing we can do.
Elizabeth: That was the addy on the last e-mail he sent me.
anneliese: Will do, thanks, Elizabeth.
camidon: Again, BTW, I assume since I got no response from the question, that no one knows who the "kavinga" is listed on this chat sites "regulars table"?
Elizabeth: I need to start updating my AOL blog more frequently, and perhaps add a link to SFWW to my Xanga page. I don't have a lot of readers, but I do have a few regulars.
Elizabeth: No idea, CM.
anneliese: It could be one of the developers.
camidon: Momentarily got excited about a new member
camidon: though I doubt it really is a new member
anneliese: Or someone that followed the link from our website...which is getting traffic.
camidon: Elizabeth, is there a link to your blog from the SFWW site? That might be useful and interesting. It would keep me remembering it.
anneliese: The page count is over 500.
anneliese: Send me a link, Elizabeth, and I'll add it.
anneliese: We could put in a member-links page, to link to individual blogs, webpages, etc.
camidon: Sorry, Anneliese, that was all me-- my computer had a glitch and opened 486 SFWW home pages at once...
anneliese: The more links that go to/from a website, the better the Google ranking.
Elizabeth: brb
anneliese: You mean I should reset the counter? Not get my hopes up?
camidon: <stuffing my whimsical pessimism away>
anneliese: lol
camidon: I'm just kidding of course. lol
anneliese: Seriously, 200 of those page views are probably me, anyway.
davek: You should be able to count the number of different sources.
anneliese: Yes, I can look at the web reports...which I haven't done in a while.
anneliese: Did anyone look at the new SFWW site?
davek: New since when?
anneliese: Friday...but you have to use a different address, since it isn't live yet.
camidon: Been there once since I got back. Looked good, but didn't scrutinize.
anneliese: http://mercedes.websitewelcome.com/~sfwriter/
camidon: oh, never mind, I thought you were talking about the active one. It's different from what I remember in July, the last time I was thoroughly AFWW active.
anneliese: Well I do try to update it from time to time...it's still a work in process.
davek: It's new to me. I'll take a look.
anneliese: Well, since I'm having so much trouble with email this week, I posted it in the forum, but nowhere else.
davek: I thought I checked that.
Elizabeth: bak...
camidon: That's were I saw that site! I new that address looked familiar
anneliese: Well I knew someone saw the post...it had 4 pageviews.
anneliese: Also, changing the subject, who wrote "The Theft of Arlo Muddleton?"
camidon: <looking at the time> I've got to head off tonight. It's been fun as usual.
anneliese: Yep, it is time to be wrapping things up.
camidon: ah, that would be me.
davek: Never heard of it. Try Amazon or google.
camidon: Was there a problem?
anneliese: Thought it might be...it's the only sub without a name.
anneliese: It's one of the Muse shorts.
camidon: Oops, my bad. I always forget something.
anneliese: How would you like your name listed?
camidon: Lol, Dave. I hope one day to be there Dave! But I'm not there yet!
anneliese: Or would you like to fix the page yourself? (even better)
camidon: CM Amidon as usual, Anneliese
camidon: I'll fix it tonight.
anneliese: OK.
davek: Getting late.
anneliese: Well, it's been a great chat.
camidon: Okay dokey. unless there's any other pressing issues, I'm out of here.
anneliese: Niters. See you all next week, I hope!
davek: Me too. See you all next time. Bye.
camidon: Gnight everyone.

davek: I'll say that is good.
camidon: Hey, that's good!
Elizabeth: Welcome back Anneliese!
emptykube: hello anneliese
camidon: Hi, Anneliese.
anneliese: Hi Everyone! Sorry I'm late.
davek: Hi Anneliese.
emptykube: of course you can finish yours tonight! think happy thoughts
camidon: Late? nah, merely making an entrance, right?
anneliese: Oh, yea, that must be it, lol
davek: Late, I'm working on getting my critiques less than a month overdue.
Elizabeth: can I have a time extension on the Muse story? I'm about halfway through.
emptykube: of course!
anneliese: You can have all the time you need!
camidon: BTW, Dave, I'll be in the Fort Collins area on Oct 13th, a Wednesday. If you're around...
davek: Yor're sending them out.
anneliese: I'm still gloating that I got mine done
Elizabeth: lol! Don't give me an opening, Anneliese, or I'll procrastinate right through it!
anneliese: lol
camidon: lol
davek: I think so.
anneliese: Well, then Elizabeth, how about you have until you get the rest dealt with.
Elizabeth: Would you like me to send the stories to the group? Maybe post them to the website as well?
emptykube: hey if my 'silly' muse story can turn out seriuos, you certainly can take whatever time you want. my Muse played devil with me.
anneliese: I was wondering if we should post them on the wiki.
davek: I sounds like our next challange story will be on procrastinating.
camidon: Dave, I'll email you as the date nears
Elizabeth: Oooh, that would also be good.
anneliese: It was fun having the little challenge.
camidon: I'd say, send them and post them.
emptykube: send and post so we can have comments?
Elizabeth: I think the challenge worked out pretty well.
camidon: yeah, it got me writing, when I hadn't done it for a while.
emptykube: yes...this was fun. its the most writing i've gotten done in a long time.
davek: I would say send them. Do we want to ask for critiques, vote for the best one, do it on the forum or wiki?
anneliese: I can take what you send around and post them to a new 'challenge' web.
anneliese: On the wiki, we can add polling, as well as comments.
camidon: We could make a whole section of the WIKI site, for these challenges.
anneliese: Might be fun.
davek: Most writing for me too. Maybe chalanges are good for us impaired writers.
Elizabeth: Good idea, Anneliese. Please refresh my memory...do we have a submission for this critique date (10/4)?
anneliese: Which is why I posted the November Novel challenge on the message board.
Elizabeth: OMG, not NaNoWriMo again!
anneliese: I don't think so, but I don't have the list with me.
emptykube: 50000 words in 30 days....hmmmm still pondering it.
anneliese: Yep, I'm thinking of doing it this year.
camidon: Hmmm. Maybe I could write my fourth children's book in that time... Hmmm...
Elizabeth: Or is this something else? I got about halfway through NaNoWriMo and completely ran out of steam.
Elizabeth: Not to mention free time.
camidon: That would be neat if a few of us from this group did it. It would probably motivate us more.
Elizabeth: But it might just be what I need to get off of my posterior and finish Book 2.
anneliese: NaNoWriMo...Do you need the link?
emptykube: i do have an idea, and even an outline (yes I actually outlined something), but that works out to almost 2000 words per day. Can i squeeze that much time each day? (shrugs)
anneliese: http://www.nanowrimo.org
camidon: Even if one runs out of steam, halfway through aint half bad!
davek: Elizabeth, when you send out the stories, send out the web address for the Wiki.
Elizabeth: Lead me not into temptation...I can find it all by myself.
anneliese: lol
Elizabeth: good suggestion, Dave. I'll do it. Please feel free to nudge me if I mess up.
camidon: hehe. It would be a challenge. 2000 words.
anneliese: I'm lucky to do 500 words a day, but heck, it is still something.
camidon: Well, there's still another month (Oct) before the challenge begins...
Elizabeth: I have trouble pulling 1000 words a week, but what the heck...I seem to need an external goal to motivate myself.
emptykube: agree with elizabeth...deadlines do seem helpful.
davek: Do you sign up, or is it a personal goal?
Elizabeth: Yes, I can do all of my shopping, cooking and cleaning in October, so that in November I have only child care, work, and writing... :biggrin:
anneliese: I know I need something for motivation...and I think it is going to take all of October to figure out what to write.
camidon: lol
Elizabeth: You sign up on the site, Dave.
anneliese: You register, and can use their official word counters to keep track of your progress.
emptykube: my birthday is nov 29th...it would be nice to give myself a 50000 word present
Elizabeth: They've got boards, a progress tracker, and some other cool features.
Elizabeth: good idea!
anneliese: Great birthday present.
camidon: This is a good idea. A couple of SFWW group members doing this would really be a fantastic writing experience. We'd have fellow writers, we know, urging us on.
Elizabeth: Group challenge!
Elizabeth: Plus it is a great way to meet writers in your own genre, geographical area, whatever demographic you're looking for.
camidon: It's just a matter of brain dumping text onto the page and sorting it out later, or that's how I interpret the challenge anyway
emptykube: collective moral support! if one of us slips we all send a collective rallying cry?
Elizabeth: Yep. All they're looking for is a first draft.
camidon: Now you all have me seriously contemplating it! Hmmm
Elizabeth: I'm wondering if a rewrite would count...I think I've figured out what I need to change in Book 1.
davek: Rewrites take longer for me that the original work.
Elizabeth: Same here, which is why I'm considering NaNoWriMo.
Elizabeth: Put myself under some pressure to get the darn thing done.
emptykube: i want to a science fiction retelling of cinderella.
Elizabeth: That could be interesting, Mike.
anneliese: As I see it, 50K words is 50K words. Just as long as they were typed during the time period.
Elizabeth: My thoughts exactly. Especially if I'm considering some major story overhauls (which I am).
emptykube: spend way too much of my time watching and reading the damn fairy tale...i need to do something with the concept!
davek: Does November have 30 or 31 days?
Elizabeth: 30
anneliese: 30
davek: BUmmer.
anneliese: But I won't tell if you start Oct. 31st.
Elizabeth: Yeah, I could use that extra day.
davek: Sure October has 31 days.
davek: And so does December. WHy did they have to pick November?
camidon: This could be good, (nods thoughtfully) yes it could.
emptykube: it sounds like many of us are considering this. should we challenge the whole group?
Elizabeth: Criminy, there'd be no way I'd sign up for December. That month is murder.
Elizabeth: Sure!
anneliese: At least in November you have Turkey day weekend, which can equate to a bit more writing time.
emptykube: december is horrible month for retail managers to try to write in! november is marginally better since thanksgiving is at the end.
anneliese: At least for those of us who pretend to have other jobs.
davek: I wonder if I can write with a turkey leg stuck in my mouth?
Elizabeth: lol!
anneliese: (I can!)
emptykube: turkey weekend is busy time for me at work
Elizabeth: brb
camidon: I think we should send it out to the group...
davek: It might help. Use it to press the space bar.
camidon: ... then again, most of the active group os here.
anneliese: No reason not to.
anneliese: lol Dave!
camidon: You can start a whole new writing style, Dave.
anneliese: We will get more active members. Soon, I think.
davek: BUt where can I get a turkey greese proof keyboard?
emptykube: so what about a challenge for this upcoming week? it was nice to have something to work on last week. can we come up with something again?
camidon: AH, now there's the rub, Dave.
anneliese: Oh, that is easy. You can either get one of those skins, or a flat keyboard.
davek: I suggest we do that once a month.
camidon: What are the signs thelling you this, Anneliese?
anneliese: Can't say, exactly. It's in my gut.
camidon: about the members, not the turkey-proof keyboard
anneliese: Yep, CM.
anneliese: lol
camidon: lol
davek: Let's hope that keyboard is not in your gut. Of course my dog would probably eat it.
emptykube: i'd settle for active members let alone new members!
camidon: How about a challenge every two weeks?
anneliese: Seriously, we're beginning to get some inquiries. It is a trickle, but I think word is beginning to get around.
camidon: That's a good thing.
davek: How is it getting around? And how to we increase the getting part.
camidon: About a nother challenge: Someone mentioned procrastination.
anneliese: We can do challenges that frequently, if we (the active members) are interested in so many.
anneliese: Otherwise, I'd at least try for one a month.
emptykube: a procrastination challenge would be good, but can we save that one for latter?
davek: Maybe if we have critiques we do those and if not a channange.
anneliese: Posting on message boards, telling other writers I happen to bump into.
anneliese: Maybe we do the challenge for the 2nd Monday slot since no one wants to submit stories for that one.
camidon: One a month, for purposes of logging on the WIKIsite, and involvin the entire group is probablt the right timeframe. But those inclined, can do them as often as inclined???
davek: Challenge - there I can spell it right.
emptykube: if we participate in the nanowrimo event shall we expect portions as submissions to the group for comment?
anneliese: Once the challenge has been posted on the Wiki, I think folks can take it up and/or re-do it any time.
anneliese: If not portions, at least progress reports.
anneliese: We could start a message board thread and possibly a wiki page.
Elizabeth: Second Monday slot for challenges sounds good.
emptykube: agree about second monday slot.
camidon: I agree, about the challenge dates, and starting the bboard and wikipage for nanowrimo
davek: Writer's Digest has a short short competition with a deadline of December 1.
anneliese: I can begin to do the wiki stuff tomorrow.
anneliese: October's challenge?
emptykube: also, if i participate in the nanowrimo, i know i wll need some outside discipline to keep me focused. the wiki site and "required" progress reports for those participating might be a big help.
davek: Loosing weight so I won't ballon up after Thanksgiving.
Elizabeth: Weekly progress reports to the group?
anneliese: I'll look into it, but I believe I can create some sort of check-in page on the wiki to keep track of progress.
emptykube: what do you think? would that work elizabeth?
anneliese: Emails to the group with word counts might be better, though.
Elizabeth: I think that the challenge and NaNoWriMo will work.
Elizabeth: Might spur more interest in the group as well.
anneliese: Really rub it into the ones not writing!
emptykube: then maybe after november we can start slots for critique of what we've come up with and drum up some critique activity.
Elizabeth: Sounds like a plan.
anneliese: Excellent plan
anneliese: Of course, were we discussing CM's sub tonight? Or did you all do that before I came in?
emptykube: well i may run out of steam, but it looks i'm talking myself into participating...
camidon: I think we might as well go for it, as a group. As the nanowrimo website says, "nothing ventured, nothing gained". If some of us don9;t meet the goal, or burnout halfway though, at least we tried.
Elizabeth: Once I'm done with my Musings, I'll go ahead and send out the Muse collection.
camidon: oh, was it really my critique spot night?
emptykube: oh yeah..speaking of critique
Elizabeth: And then send out an e-mail for NaNoWriMo.
anneliese: Sounds great.
camidon: <checking records> I'd forgotten all about that. oops.
Elizabeth: Whoops! Bad moderator, no biscuit!
camidon: Looking forward to that Muse collection. It does sound good.
Elizabeth: About the chapters...CM, I really like that you brought the dog into the conflict.
anneliese: I liked how you brought an amazing amount of information into the story, but it didn't feel like info-dumping.
Elizabeth: Makes the emotional stakes for your hero even higher.
anneliese: <== agrees with Elizabeth
camidon: <altering mindset, slipping into story-mode> Thank you.
davek: WHat is the title? Winter Cannons or The FIres of Winter?
camidon: "The Fires of Winters" is the current title, and the correct one.
camidon: The other one, was an earlier title stab
Elizabeth: :::writes correct title on back of hand:::
davek: LOL
Elizabeth: Maybe next time I'll remember.
camidon: hehe. I think it was my mistake earlier, I let the wrong title slip through once.
camidon: no biggie though
davek: As long as the published gets it right.
camidon: Lol! One can hope it will get that far!
camidon: Any thoughts about what was confusing about these chapters, or what could be done better in your opinions?
anneliese: I stumbled over a couple of typos, but that was about it.
davek: You can send me a memory. I forget what is happening. The synopsis helps but not enough fer me.
anneliese: I did have a nagging wonder about the intended age of the reader audience again.
Elizabeth: I thought you did an excellent job of explaining the conflict, and how this battle will be fought.
emptykube: is this a multi-volume book? (I may have asked this once before)
camidon: So, the info given by Cal (the strange being descriptions), didn't slow things down too much, nor seem out of place?
anneliese: Seemed very appropriate, to me.
camidon: Yep, Mike, there will be 4 and only 4 books.
davek: How long do you plan each one?
camidon: What was the "nagging wonder" about the age, Anneliese?
davek: I agree with Anneliese, some parts seem advanced for a teen.
anneliese: A little bit of it, mostly ch12, I think, seemed written for an older age group.
camidon: First book = 160 pages. 2nd book 200pages. Somewhere in that rage, Dave
camidon: " some parts seem advanced for a teen" Any specifics?
davek: I'll have to get back on that.
anneliese: I thought the writing was good, but the vocabulary and sentence length more 'adult'.
anneliese: But that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
camidon: Good to know. In skimming CH12, I can see why. In rewrites, I find myself constantly questioning sentences and asking: "Is this too much?" When I don't have a clear answer for myself, I leave it in. As I recall, during rewrites, I specifically remember asking myself this about some of CH12 material.
camidon: Take your time, Dave.
Elizabeth: I'd rather see somebody write "up" to a YA audience than "down" to them.
anneliese: <==agrees
emptykube: writing "down" can be an author's death knoll.
emptykube: knoll...toll??? career ending thingy either way..
anneliese: Also, were the chapters a bit longer in this sub, than prior chapters?
anneliese: knell
anneliese: ding dong
camidon: In writing this I decided to mostly worry about staying in Damon's voice. If things got complex, as long as I stayed in his voice to describe things and give understanding, I thought I would be okay. <shrug>
anneliese: I think that is a good stragegy. Stay with it.
emptykube: thanks, anneleise...getting tired and unable to think staright
emptykube: straight.
anneliese: Because you did that well, is why I'm on the fence whether this is 'too adult' in writing.
camidon: Yes, I think they were, Anneliese.
camidon: Some of the previous chapters were very short (CH8). CH12 was a little longer than most I think.
Elizabeth: I didn't think the chapter length was a problem.
camidon: I also crammed a lot of chapters into this submission, as I wanted to get the rest of the book out in only two critique slots (this one in Sept, and once upcoming in OCt)
davek: I'm reading Dan Brown's Angles and Demons. Talk about short chapters.
emptykube: gonna say goodnight folks...cm..i owe you a poroper critique. everyone else have fun...
camidon: Thanks, Mike. Take your time.
anneliese: Good chatting with you tonight.
davek: Bye. I've got to go too. Chris, let's talk about the 13th.
emptykube:
camidon: If you want to wait til Oct, and then crit these chapters with the last three, feel free.
camidon: Sounds good, Dave.
Elizabeth: Okay, good night
davek: Bye.
anneliese: Niters.
System: davek left us (snif).
Elizabeth: I probably need to sign off and finish my Musings.
anneliese: How many did you get?
camidon: As the evening is wrapping up, Anneliese, Elizabeth, last question: Still reading?
Elizabeth: Good night everyone, thanks for coming...it was a great chat.
anneliese: Reading?
Elizabeth: I got five, Anneliese. Six if I can pull mine together.
camidon: Does reading these next few chapters make you want to read the last ones even more/
anneliese: That's great, Elizabeth.
camidon: If that maes sense
Elizabeth: Absolutely, CM. I need to find out what happens to Damon and Radar!
anneliese: Absolutely, CM. I really do want to find out how it all ends.
camidon: Then, that's the most important thing of all!
anneliese: I think this story has only gotten better as it goes on.
camidon: and you'll find out soon...
anneliese: Looking forward to it!
camidon: Thanks a bunch all. I appreciate the feedback, especially since I had forgotten about the chat about my story tonight!
camidon: Again, I'm looking forward to that Muse collection. It does sound good.
Elizabeth: I'll be sending it out tonight or early tomorrow. Nighters!
anneliese: Same here, I'm really curious to know what we all wrote.
camidon: gnight all.
Elizabeth: Good night!

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Elizabeth: But I like that you tie his mother's voice into the hallucinations, and his love for Radar.
Channel: default
Elizabeth: Hello! How are you doing?
anneliese: Well, maybe 3 of us?
camidon: And then I"m promptly proven wrong!!
Elizabeth: lol!
anneliese: Yea, but it's good to be proven wrong with things like that.
camidon: Absolutely. Good to "see" you again, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth: Sorry I missed last week's chats. We got back from CA at 1 a.m. Monday.
Elizabeth: I pretty much took the day off, and stuff blew up at work Wednesday.
anneliese: A lot of traveling for you of late!
System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
Elizabeth: hi Mike!
anneliese: Hi Mike!
emptykube: hello!
camidon: Hi Mike (the trio choruses
Elizabeth: so does that make us a geek chorus?
Elizabeth: :::ducks to avoid thrown objects:::
emptykube: I haven't read you're story, but I will, and I promise a critique shortly after this chat. I just couldn't let the time flow without attending
anneliese: You better duck pretty low!
camidon: oh my, oh my
Elizabeth: roflmao at CM's smiley!
emptykube: geek chorus
Elizabeth:
camidon: No big deal, Mike. I don't think too many in the group have either.
Elizabeth: I liked that I finally got an idea what the title meant.
anneliese: I read it, does that count for something?
emptykube: I do have it opened up in front of me, though, if that counts for anything
camidon: lol, Elizabeth
Elizabeth: Although I'm wondering just how our hero will become the weapon these characters are expecting.
camidon: Thank you, Anneliese.
Elizabeth: Or if he'll resist getting tangled up in their conflicts.
anneliese: You're welcome...now if I can just remember where I put my copy, hmmm.
camidon: And thank you all that are here tonight.
Elizabeth: You've raised the stakes in these chapters, which is a good thing.
anneliese: I was really impressed with this sub.
camidon: (Digging out my manuscript too)
Elizabeth: Wouldn't miss it, CM.
camidon: Just what exactly do you mean, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth: About the punk, or raising the stakes?
camidon: Raising the stakes
System: anneliese left us (snif).
System: anneliese joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Well, sorry about that, I did a bad thing there.
Elizabeth: Well, it becomes clearer in these chapters that Damon's reached, as the sign in the volcano says, the "point of no return".
camidon: I've always worried that Chapter 10 is just a little too weird.
anneliese: OK, brb. have to reboot, I think.
System: anneliese left us (snif).
Elizabeth: It does get pretty surreal, CM.
Elizabeth: But I like that you tie his mother's voice into the hallucinations, and his love for Radar.
System: anneliese joined us. Cheers!
camidon: His mother and Radar are what ground him through this entire book/ ordeal
anneliese: I worried about the surreal part, but I think it is going to work in the end.
camidon: Any particular reason why you think it will work, Anneliese?
camidon: These few chapters, in my mind were the transitional ones. From Chapter 12 on, in my mind, the book just freight trains to the end.
Elizabeth: This seems to be the point where Damon starts to realize his own power, at least after Conrad points it out.
camidon: I would agree with that.
anneliese: I think it works because you are laying a lot of pipe (I presume) for future events.
Elizabeth: Where he might, just might, start to act in this world, instead of just reacting to all the weird stuff around him.
anneliese: I think your transition to the sequence is a bit abrupt, but that is my only problem with it.
Elizabeth: Up to now he's been too busy getting his bearings.
anneliese: <==agrees with Elizabeth
anneliese: This sequence, is very pivotal, I feel, which is why it works.
camidon: I think I know what you mean, A, but just to be sure, which transition do you mean?
emptykube: my apologies...I've been reading. I think the thing i like most is the depth of detail...the mythos is much deeper than anything else I've read of yours. Like you've put a lot of thought into this.
anneliese: Really, the ending paragraphs of ch9 to the beginning of ch10. I needed something to sense that this was Ray's storm, even if I didn';t understand it.
anneliese: Does that make sense?
camidon: I'm glad that comes through, Mike. I like to think I have. It9;s certainly the most in depth thing I've worked on yet.
Elizabeth: There's the whole bizarre dream/hallucination sequence, which seems to be Damon's initiation to a new level of this world.
Elizabeth: And he comes out of it, after his conversation with Conrad, starting to understand.
Elizabeth: I liked that, even as he's digesting all of this information, he's planning for the outside world--deciding he's going to start choosing his clothes, etc.
anneliese: Yes, I liked that also.
Elizabeth: There's a coming-of-age feel to these chapters.
anneliese: And a coming to terms with his mother's death.
camidon: Now that I found those pages, A, yes it does. It makes sense.
camidon: Ah yes, the central theme of the book.
anneliese: Damon, we want to be initially confused, but your reader should be able to figure it out just befor him.
anneliese: Since this is YA, you might need just a tad of something to signal this radical change.
Elizabeth: Just a hint.
anneliese: I absolutely love the imagery.
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
emptykube: Agree...something that will help a young reader "guess" the direction.
anneliese: Maybe something aural, like a big 'pop'. What you have is very visual.
camidon: That's a good suggestion. Certainly noted.
anneliese: Are we all thinking very hard?
anneliese: Or did I just lose you all again?
emptykube: there's a flavor or C.S Lewis to this, CM...I think the imagery is good. This is certainly a turning point for Damon.
camidon: I'm still here.
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: phew!
emptykube: of, not or
camidon: I'll take all the flavors I can kept. Anything to help this along its way!
emptykube: do you have the whole book worked out yet, or are you creating as you go along?
Elizabeth: I do like that you don't telegraph plot twists, character traits, etc. A lot of YA books do that, and I hated it as a kid. It's almost an insult.
camidon: It's all done, MIke. So is the first draft of the 2nd book, and 3/4 of the 3rd. I plan to finish #3 and #4 (the last book) htis winter,
emptykube: yes, elizabeth that's why so many books pale compared to the Hrry Potter books.
anneliese: So ambitious...I'm jealous!
emptykube: CM...that's why this feels so rich. You've got the story down...you're just fine tuning.
Elizabeth: Or maybe a whiff of something--engage all of the senses. A whiff of ozone, signaling the coming rain, or of sulfur (foreshadowing the volcano).
camidon: "I do like that you don't telegraph plot twist" It's nice to know this. It's certainly not something as a writer I actually ever thought about.
Elizabeth: I hate books where I can guess the next plot twist and be consistently right.
camidon: Mike, this is a pretty advanced draft, #3 of major revision, for this first book. That's got to help as well.
emptykube: especially if the twist is obvious, but the main character is blind!
camidon: I like that E, something sensory signaling what's to come. That chapter does just THUD at the end. Great idea.
Elizabeth: Yep. Nothing like making your protagonist look stupid.
emptykube: revision, revision, time for decision, should this stay, should that go? Revision, revision, why didn't i just forget it and instead watch television?
camidon: hehe
Elizabeth: You've engaged the visual, auditory and tactile senses very well in these chapters...go on, add smell.
Elizabeth: I loved your description of the "apples", BTW.
anneliese: Yes, but I wondered if they triggered the rain event somehow.
emptykube: oohhh smell...she's right...might as well use up all the senses.
emptykube: I liked the "apples, too, esp the cigarettes and battery kick., but you should be more specific then "applish fruit". That's kind of vague.
camidon: I'm glad the imagery is so vivid and clear to you so far. That's another main point of the book. If this is the land if Imagi, the imagery better be a major component! That was my argument anyway.
camidon: Point taken, Mike. Nothing like a specific imagery, then a vague one to ruin the effect.
anneliese: Is there anything you want to ask us about the sub, CM?
emptykube: CM...the imagery is important also because you're taking the reader on a trip to a land they've never seen. Its like the old "travelogue" stories where description of the country was more prevelant then the plot itself to give the reader an experiencce of some foriegn land.
camidon: True, true, Mike.
camidon: Let's see, A, I asked about Chap 10 and it's oddities... let's see. <thumbing through notes>
camidon: I take it by your respones that after these next three chapters, you're all still wanting to read more?
Elizabeth: Absolutely.
emptykube: certainly..
anneliese: Give me MORE MORE MORE!
camidon: I kind of guessed that, but I thought I'd make certain.
camidon: Here's one more question.
camidon: I'm always worried about Damon's voice. After these chapter, does he still seem like a 10 year old boy. In the handful of other folks I've had critique this, half have wanted Damon to be 12 in age. Now I know you're not children's authors, but any thoughts?
Elizabeth: He's a pretty precocious ten-year-old.
camidon: Is he a little too smart/thoughtful for a 10 year old, or should he start the stories out a little older?
anneliese: While lurking in another chat, I heard that YA books should have a protag. that is a couple of years older than the intended audience.
Elizabeth: Good point, Anneliese. 12 might be a better starting age for Damon.
anneliese: I could believe Damon as a 10 year old, but not that 10 year olds would be reading this story.
Elizabeth: Especially if this is a coming-of-age story--12 is close enough to puberty that the theme resonates.
anneliese: He could even be 13 and the story works.
emptykube: As the parent of an eight year old who interacts better with adults then kids her own age, and who uses words her friends don't dream of understanding, I don't see an issue. What's a two year differnce between ages? But I can't honestly say if it makes a difference or not. I would worry more about your own adult voice coming out in guise of Damon's thoughts.
camidon: Having said this. Each of the next book occurs later in Damon's life. B2: 11 years old B3: 12 B4: 13. If I adjust this scale to 12-15, do you envision any major problems? (I know this is a tough question)
anneliese: As one of those kids, Damon could have been 9, and I would have believe it.
Elizabeth: You've got his voice down.
anneliese: Keep him 10.
anneliese: Harry Potter starts at 11. But that fits in with the school system.
camidon: Whenever I get the last few chapters to you, and B1 concludes, I'll probably ask this again.
emptykube: just be carefull your age breakdown doesn't get you unwanted comaprisons to JKR's Potter semesters.
Elizabeth: At 14-15 he's going to start noticing girls, etc. Don't know how that would affect your storyline.
camidon: Yah, Mike, that may be inevitable, but this really doesn't take place much in the real world, around school, which I think helps.
emptykube: good point elizabeth...as a precosous ten year old, he may behave older, but his personality isn't controlled by hormones either!
camidon: By book 3, those overtones are certainly starting to show.
anneliese: at age 12?
anneliese: I have a nephew that was all about sex at that age, but I like to hope that he was an exception.
Elizabeth: At 12, he might still be in the avoid-girls mode, or if he has girl friends, he treats them just like his guy friends.
emptykube: LOL!! well. so was I ...but ...
Elizabeth: Although 12's not too young for a crush.
anneliese: A crush is a different sort of thing, though.
camidon: Nothing serious, A, but strange, awkward moments occur between a female friend Damon meets in B2,
emptykube: see... I have no teens yet, so like this is not my expertise either...I'm just trying to keep the eight year old an eight year old
anneliese: Really hard to do, Mike, in this day and age.
emptykube: so true!!
camidon: lol, Mike!
anneliese: lol
Elizabeth: That makes sense for a 12-year-old. Weird awkward moments, but little or no idea what they're about or how to proceed.
Elizabeth: Of course, that also described some relationships I had in my 20s. :toilet:
emptykube: LOL!!
emptykube: describes my first marrage to a tee.. especially the toilet
camidon: By golly, we having some funny moments here I think this is why children's little is such a rich genre...
camidon: we can reflect on our younger days with such witty leverage!
Elizabeth: and also because most of us never really grow up.
emptykube: speak for yourself!
camidon: ain't that the truth!
Elizabeth: lol!
camidon: That's all I have tonight. Any other thoughts or questions or comments. Have to run soon.
emptykube: I love these emoticons, btw
Elizabeth: Keep writing and give us more! I want to know what comes next!
anneliese: Send us more! I love to see where you are going with this.
camidon: BY golly, this is fun!
emptykube: more...more...more...can I have some more, please?
camidon: Well, then I'll sign up for another crit slot sometime soon, and send the next batch of chapters along.
Elizabeth: Yay!
anneliese: We're holding our breath!
Elizabeth: look, I'm turning blue!
emptykube: since there seems to be a shortage of submissions, why not ask for the next six months, and get this over with???
camidon: Sign me up, A, for the next available slot then (I'll also email you if I don't forget)
anneliese: Will do. And thanks for the reminder email. The old brain aint what it used to be.
emptykube: ooohhh I like the breath holding thingy!! it makes me feel loopy! :dreh:
camidon: I think I could get the rest of the book out in two submission.
anneliese: That will be the 2nd or 3rd week of Sept. I think.
Elizabeth: I can relate to that, Anneliese. I think I've lost most of my short-term memory.
camidon: So, A. Sign me up for two. One in Sept, and one a few weeks later (again I'll email you, if i don't forget)
emptykube:
anneliese: Will do. LOL, Mike!
Elizabeth: These smileys are almost too much fun.
Elizabeth: Great chat, everybody!
camidon: Thanks for reading, and for coming tonight. Very fun, and very useful.
anneliese: I wish they carried through to the message board chat log.
emptykube: yes...too much of a distraction...
anneliese: Thanks for the sub.
Elizabeth: Glad I could make it, CM!
camidon: Good night all. All the best.
emptykube: CM...my critique should be along shortly. Not bad for a speed read..
Elizabeth: 'night everybody!
anneliese: Niters. Great chat.
emptykube: nighters, all...

anneliese: Hi CM!
camidon: howdy!
anneliese: Oh, wow, I got history today!
anneliese: And scrolling is working!
camidon: I got history, but no scrolling. <shrug>
anneliese: This is the first time I've had scrolling in months.
camidon: My apologies for not being around as much recently.
anneliese: That's OK, I was about to apologize for not sending a chat reminder out today.
camidon: then, again, it's not like much of SFWW is around at all these days!
camidon: bah, you sent one out MOnday, that should have been sufficent.
anneliese: Sad, but true. I'm hoping that things pick up after Labor day...had fair turnout at Monday's chat.
anneliese: A couple of guests seemed interested in the website, at least.
camidon: really?
anneliese: Yep. Almost floored me. I think we had 6 in the room at one time.
camidon: I hope, Dave shows. I felt bad about not being to attend his story chat. I wanted to, but alas, that's how things go.
camidon: Hey, that's exciting.
anneliese: Well, I'm trying to spread the word everywhere I can (and have the energy for) in AOL.
camidon: Though, my summer season IS winding down. By the end of the Sept I9;ll be back in CO, and rabble rousing my writing again,
anneliese: I'm hoping that the search engines begin picking up the site and improving its ranking soon.
camidon: That's the most important thing.
anneliese: It would also be nice if some webmasters would update their links, but that doesn't seem to be happening very fast, either.
anneliese: Have you been checking out the wiki postings?
camidon: Gosh, I've really been out of touch with that.
camidon: That's the first thing to go for me, the bboard, then wikisite, and it's just not been in my recent timeframe., though it is on my radar screen.
camidon: So, to make a long answer short: no.
anneliese: I'm wondering what you feel about how the project is developing, given that the kernel was your idea.
camidon: Anything you'd like to share?
anneliese: Most of the activity has been Dave, Mike and me. I think we have had some good discussions.
camidon: Well, first off, I just think it's cool that it's going somewhere. As I said on the bboard, people could run with this idea if they wanted to.
anneliese: I just wish there was more participation.
camidon: <shaking head, must get to the WIKIsite.>
camidon: I'm very open to the direction the project takes. I've got my ideas, but nothing is in stone, more in a liquid stated that comingles with other fluid ideas.
anneliese: The crux of the decision making, IMHO, is the time frame: long (thousands of years) or short (hundreds of years)
camidon: I agree. I think that's the biggest stumbling block, one of the few issues members differ on.
camidon: My goal tonight was to just say: which do you prefer, then go which ever was most popular, and see where those directions took us.
anneliese: Sounds like it's going to get wet and sloppy around here. :tongue:
camidon: lol, do you have an opinion one way or another for the timeframe?
anneliese: Well, how come your smilies show and mine don't?
camidon: good question. How come you can scroll and my isn't working?
camidon: The neat thing about WIKI, is even if one aspect of the project goes one way, there's no reason we could have a seperate world based on something as little as the timeframe (some stories in the hundreds of years, see what happens, and also pages dedicated to stories over the thousands and thousands of years).
camidon: <there's no reason we COULDN'T> is what it should say.
camidon: Of course, that involves getting around to writing the stories...
camidon: BTW, one of my friends found a WIKIpedia site, an online encyclopedia that's based on regular people adding entries to the online encyclopedia, with some monitors to check for accuracy.
camidon: Did I lose you, Anneliese?
anneliese: Still there?
camidon: I'm here, you?
camidon: Did you get my list of random comments? I refreshed the page a few times........
camidon: I got your "Still here?" but that was amidst a refresth.
anneliese: If I drop out, it's because I have something strange going on here. I'm going to be restarting Netscape.
System: anneliese left us (snif).
System: anneliese joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Oh happy day, don't know what happened, but I got all (I hope) of your comments.
anneliese: That was wierd.
System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: I've found that wikipedia...it's very useful.
camidon: Ugh. I just had a fatal error. Let's hope a new page works.
camidon: Ah, now I see you again, all is well.
anneliese: Re: your comments, you are right. There isn't any reason why we couldn't have parallel projects on different timelines.
anneliese: Oh, and now you have the little symbol by your name.
camidon: At times, the private chat room is on large quantities of illegal substances.
anneliese: True. My web guru and I were talking about it at dinner.
camidon: That's the beauty of WIKI, so we might as well use it, if people want. I'd rather have too many open ends, then limit people's creativity by forcing rules that don't want to agree with.
anneliese: We're moving our clients to a new hosting situation...but it doesn't allow chat software.
anneliese: Give me the old IRC chat...I was just getting good with it!
anneliese: I think it is definately a good point to have all these resources...wiki, message board, chat.
camidon: of course! THat's always how it works.
anneliese: Even if our group stays small, they are great resources for us.
camidon: Yah, we have more resources, which is great, but the group just has to get rolling again, which I think it will... eventually.
anneliese: I know it will.
camidon: I'm thrilled by this collaborative project. Even though it would be nice to have ecen more members involved, just the fact that we're actually talking science fiction story stuff is great.
anneliese: I'm thinking of using the wiki as a place to organize some of my notes for my personal writing projects. That way, no matter where I am, I'll have access.
anneliese: Yes, I've always wanted to do a collaborative project.
anneliese: I'm really enjoying the discussions. Very stimulating for me.
camidon: Even though, it's only the two of us tonight, it's still good to get together and banter.
anneliese: I agree. I always come away from these sessions with tons of ideas to work over.
camidon: I guess I'll get caught up on the WIKI, perhaps after this Saturday when I have a real weekend... , and sometime in the distant future, depending how wiki discussion goes, we might try for another one of these "difinitive chats"
anneliese: Yea, this one isn't going to decide anything, I'm afraid.
anneliese: There is still some tuning that we have to do with the process...
camidon: That's probably for the best, since I've been SO inactive on the WIKIsite; I was going to rely heavily on Dave tonight to lead.
anneliese: I wonder if some folks aren't a little afraid of it all.
camidon: yep...
camidon: Agreed, epsecially with the new WIKI software.
anneliese: Yep, I've been really waiting to see you hop into the wiki discussions.
camidon: I think Dave and I should start making executive decisions on the WIKI site. THis is how it's going to be, unless there's major opposition, and then we can discuss it more on the site.
anneliese: You can't imagine how traumatic message boards are for me :beard:
camidon: lol
anneliese: That is exactly what I think you and Dave should be doing.
camidon: WIth lots of good posts, we just need to choose some of the parameters and move on... (always keeping open parallel page ideas...)
anneliese: The rest of us will be perfectly happy with your decisions (or we'll certainly let you know).
camidon: Well good, Anneliese, then when I get on my feet, and reinvest time into the WIKIsite, I'll start doing it!
anneliese: That's great.
camidon: It's so strange having "excutive or editorial" control.
anneliese: As I'm digesting it, I'm really intrigued by the parallel notion...it could be a lot of fun, and give us a unique twist.
camidon: I'll email Dave and let him know, and we can both do it. This would be interesting.
camidon: <will be>
anneliese: I can certainly understand that you haven't had the time recently.
camidon: Ack. My priorites have swapped while I'm at the Park. CAVE. CAVE. CAVE. <writing a distant sixth>
anneliese: Because I'm so in awe of you, I put up one of my photos from Natural Bridge Caverns, TX, as my desktop wallpaper.
camidon: LOL!
anneliese: It's a shot looking into a dark hole.
camidon: I guess I shouldn't mention I may spend 1-2 months caving in Mexico this winter, finding new caves...
anneliese: That's fantastic. I hope you get to do it.
camidon: lol, again. I think it's interesting, and it's neat to know others think its cool too.
camidon: caving that is.
anneliese: I have always been in love with caves.
anneliese: That's probably why I love the notion of hollowing out asteroids for space vessels.
camidon: Perhaps if I get around to it, I'll email you some WInd Cave exploration pictures.
anneliese: I'd certainly enjoy them.
camidon: <writing myself a note>
camidon: Any knew stories or writing from your end?
anneliese: I've been slogging through one, but still can't make it work, so nothing to show.
camidon: Other than thinking about this WIKI project?
anneliese: I've certainly been spending more than a little time with that.
camidon: Ah, we all know that feeling. Got plenty of my own "slogs"
camidon: ONe of my summer goals was to finish a few of those 'slogs", but alas, as the summer wanes, I've not touched a sentence.
anneliese: From the set-up of the wiki (which was an experience) to actually using it, it has become something of an obsession for me.
anneliese: Same here. And I keep telling myself that I'll have it done to take up one of those AOL chat slots.
camidon: Hopefully that's good!
anneliese: It's experience, if nothing else.
camidon: Any recent slots filled for the critique schedule? Or still vast openings?
anneliese: August got filled quickly and we are into the first week of September, I think.
camidon: Hey, that's good to hear!
anneliese: But hopefully, there hasn't been too much SFWW emails of late, because I haven't gotten any.
anneliese: But email in general has trickled to almost nothing, it seems.
camidon: The last emails were my crits of the last two stories, Herbie's and Dave's
camidon: Nothing after the sixth
anneliese: That sounds about right.
camidon: other than your chat reminders
camidon: If the slots are filled, the critiques will come, or so we can hope!
anneliese: I assume. Did Elizabeth send out a story Monday?
camidon: Not that I received.
anneliese: That's what I was thinking. I know that she was online briefly, but didn't join the chat.
anneliese: I should send her a note
camidon: Good idea.
anneliese: Well, if you still have time, I should let you spend it writing, or perusing the wiki.
camidon: It's nearing the hour, and I do have to run tonight. Bummer we couldn't have an indepth GenE discussion, but all the same, this may have been just as healthy.
anneliese: For you and me, at least <g>
camidon: lol, ah sometimes Anneliese, we do think along the same wavelengths.
camidon: yes, for us!
camidon: One can never have enough moral support.
camidon: Thanks for the pleasant chat, Anneliese.
anneliese: Ditto. Anytime.
camidon: Then have a pleasant nite, and hopefully by this time next week I'll have thoroughlly reentered the WIKI GenE fray.
anneliese: I'm looking forward to it. Niters to you!

System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Mike!
emptykube: hello!
anneliese: Glad you could make it.
emptykube: thanks. i probably won't be able to stay the whole time, but I'll stay as long as I can.
emptykube: i'll
anneliese: Well, we'll enjoy your company as long as you can stay.
emptykube: trying to keep my son out of trouble, and chat at the same time..
anneliese: That can be a distraction, I'm sure.
emptykube: yes, and alex, being autistic, is a unique situation in and of himself. Right now he's plotting mischief...tongue in cheek, humming, staring at me as I type
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Isn't it awful when you can so plainly see something coming, yet have to wait to see what it will be?
anneliese: Hi Dave!
emptykube: one of the things he's learned is a good impersonation of Nelson from the Simpsons...HAHA...whenever he's up to something! can9;t talk, but he can do Nelson!
davek: HI, guys.
emptykube: Hi Dave
anneliese: Gotta love it, Mike!
davek: I was catching ou on the chat. I got scrolling this time.
emptykube: yes...gotta love it. Alex has a great sense of humor, but its devious.
anneliese: Wow, that's good.
anneliese: If you can steer it into playfulness, then you might have something.
davek: Glad you could make it Mike. And thanks again for the critique.
anneliese: Is CM going to make it tonight?
emptykube: no problem, dave. hope it made sense.
davek: ???
anneliese: Sorry, I probably shouldn't try to carry on more than one conversation at a time, especially since my fingers aren't too coordinated tonight.
davek: All feedback helps. I try to put myself in the mind set that the problems pointed out to me are due to my poor communication.
davek: SO when someone says someting about one of my stories I think - why did they think that?
davek: Usually it is because they coun't read my mind. Bad reader.
emptykube: that's a healthy way to look at critiques. iwasn't always so healthy. used to take everything personally
anneliese: Oh, yes...Bad reader!
davek: That's OK for a few minutes. BUt before you talk back you have to change.
davek: Sometimes you even have to reread your story.
anneliese: It's hard not to take things personally. You pour a lot of yourself into your work.
emptykube: funny you mention mind reading...lately I've been taking the POV that writing is about getting the reader TO read you mind...trying to convey enough information so someone knows where your head was when you wrote it.
anneliese: It's easy to mistake criticism of a story for criticism of the author.
davek: That is easy.
anneliese: I used to feel quite strongly that way, Mike. But then something Amy once said tempered it...
emptykube: hardest thing is seperating criticism of story from critique of self...especially when your ego is telling you the critiquer is a bonehead!
anneliese: Every reader brings to a story something of him/herself. And that something also contributes to the story experience.
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
davek: HI Elizabeth.
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth!
emptykube: hi elizabeth
anneliese: Recovered from the road trip?
Elizabeth: hi there!
Elizabeth: Almost. At least I know which week it is, and which sub to send out.
davek: We were talking about how to not take criticism personally. Not that I would do that.
anneliese: You're way ahead of me, then.
emptykube: I like that anneliese...maybe writing is less about mind reading and more about transmittng empathy.
emptykube: I like that anneliese...maybe writing is less about mind reading and more about transmittng empathy.
Elizabeth: I'm still working on that. ;-)
anneliese: Yes, Mike, I think it might be.
Elizabeth: Both taking criticism and writing so that the reader can fill in the blanks.
emptykube: you got me Herbie's fine.
anneliese: ??
davek: Other than putting a story away for a while how do you put yourself in the readers mind.
Elizabeth: Mike, I sent out the same sub two weeks in a row. Since you had the computer glitch, you didn't notice.
emptykube: sorry...distracted by an Alex hug and a HAHA.
Elizabeth: So you're probably the only person left in SFWW who thinks I';m in my right mind.
anneliese: I don't think you need to put yourself in the reader's mind, except to analyze market-ability maybe.
Elizabeth: whoops, gratuitous use of semi-colon there
emptykube: oh...I see...8/2 and 8/9 were the same! I'm a little slow...
davek: I worked for me. At least I got another critique.
Elizabeth: I need to step back and pretend that I don't know anything about the story.
Elizabeth: Which is especially tricky for the novels...I've been in that world for so long that nothing is strange to me.
Elizabeth: I tend to forget how confusing some aspects can be to a new reader.
anneliese: That's why workshopping a story is so beneficial.
davek: In this case, I expect Jack to be in several shorts so I get a lot of confusion as to what the reader knows.
davek: What do you mean by workshopping?
anneliese: Sending stories out to critique groups like this one.
Elizabeth: Having other people read and review it, Dave.
davek: I wonder if person to person or e-mail works better for that?
emptykube: have you written other Jack stories, or just mental plotting?
Elizabeth: I routinely get "what the heck is going on?" critiques when I send novel chapters to a new audience.
anneliese: And you even send out great synopses
Elizabeth: Both have their good and bad points, Dave.
davek: Mostly mental, but a few ideas written down.
emptykube: I think the only differnce between person to person and email is that you get to see someone's expression when they read the story, and that could be either very enlightening, or very devistating depending on the look.
anneliese: I think chats help also, especially if afterward you can take a look at the discussion...
Elizabeth: One of the things I like about e-mail critiques is that I can walk away from the critique and cool off if necessary. ;-)
anneliese: ...how much backstory did you fill in, etc.
Elizabeth: The chats are very helpful...getting the comments in real time.
Elizabeth: And this group's a great idea generator.
emptykube: yeah elizabeth...being able to walk away and think about a critique is much better.
anneliese: My face-to-face critique group experience was pretty awful.
davek: I would love to find a local group but I haven't really spent the time.
anneliese: Think we otta tear up your story, Dave?
davek: GO for it. We can start with Mike's critique. One of his points is that I don't give a reason to like Jack.
anneliese: That is a valid point...why should I like Jack? I certainly don't like the pod's intended passenger.
emptykube: yeah...for me, there isn't enough info for me to decide why I should care if he lives or the technology falls into enemy hands. i just don't know Jack.
davek: How important is that in a short story? Or how much space should be given to it?
anneliese: That's a hard question. The first one to ask...what were your intentions with the story? What did you plan to accomplish?
davek: To sell it.
emptykube: lOL...isn't that what we all want??
anneliese: Well, to sell a story, you need a strong, like-able, or otherwise identifyable character.
davek: Seriously, it is about man vs. computer.
anneliese: ...one in which the reader can identify, in some way.
anneliese: I think, then, if the computer were nastier, or something, we might empathize more with Jack.
emptykube: I didn't get a sense of it being man vs. computer. there isn';t enough detail to draw that conflict out.
Elizabeth: IMO, a strong character is even more important in a short story, since you have less time to grab the reader.
davek: Jack is supposed to be a computer expert that always ends up fighting the computers he is supposed to maintian.
Elizabeth: Or at the very least a strong conflict, one with high stakes.
davek: I was going for the conflict idea.
anneliese: But, while he is fighting the computer, it was the pilot's error that got him into the mess...make it more of computer problem?
Elizabeth: So why does he end up fighting the computers? Not enough technical expertise?
Elizabeth: Is there something wrong with how these machines are programmed, and only Jack knows enough about them to realize it?
davek: No, he is at the leading edge.
emptykube: At the very least Jack should have some sort of internal dialogue about man vs computer.
Elizabeth: Does he, deep down, not trust the computers? Not trust his own ability to work with them?
Elizabeth: Or is he just such an arrogant, argumentative sob that he even picks fights with computers?
davek: He trusts his ability. Not the computers. It is like he is always involved with the 0.5 release.
emptykube: I think I know a few of those, elizabeth!
Elizabeth: I didn't get any feel for Jack's personality, how he had gotten into this situation, even what he's thinking and feeling.
anneliese: Any of Elizabeth's notions would make Jack more 'real' or personable to us.
Elizabeth: That could be a strong motivator/key to Jack's personality, Dave. He's always the guy sent out there with the beta version.
davek: That brings up the "When to start a story" question. ANd how much backstory to put in.
Elizabeth: Does he take a macho pride in his work? Has he been railroaded into it, or bribed with the promise of a better job if he does this one last quick fix?
emptykube: Dave this is what I meant when I asked who is Jack? How does he tie his shoes? I didn't get a feel for him as a person. I couldn't relate to his plight except at a very basic "he will likely die" level. You need ot draw the reader into Jack's soul and let them see through his eyes/thoughts/feelings.
Elizabeth: Is he a malcontent who gets this stuff because nobody else wants it, and complains the whole way?
anneliese: Your starting point worked for me. Some back story to build the character and conflict better would have helped me.
Elizabeth: How does he react to the computer, once again, malfunctioning?
davek: He is one of the best, not vry agressive which is why he is a low ranked military . Because he is good he gets the tough assignments.
Elizabeth: Is he stoic, boastful, complaining about how he gets all the crap assignments?
anneliese: Does he want to add a few lines of code to the admin computers doling out the duty assignments?
davek: His reaction is - here we go again.
Elizabeth: Seeing his reaction to this latest snafu (or just seeing that he's used to things going very, very wrong) gives us more insight into his character.
emptykube: ???
Elizabeth: Ah. Here we go again. That sums up the problem for me, at least if you're going to keep this as a short story. It feels like an episode, not a story. The same thing happens to him every week and somehow he finagles his way out. But he isn't changed by what happens to him.
anneliese: 'Here we go again' is good. But how do you show us that?
davek: He is stoic, and easily bored so he likes the tough assignments.
davek: I write more stories???
Elizabeth: I'm about to get all writery on you...
anneliese: One thing that confused me...it seems that most of what they were doing should have been done before they left the ground. Why now?
davek: He is not nearly as much a smart a** as me.
anneliese: You???
emptykube: Each story should be able to stand on its own, Dave. Think about Niven's Beowolf Schafer stories. Each one allowed niven to adress a problem, but they also couldn't ahve worked without showing Schafer's unique personality
davek: It was done on the ground. This is just another check.
Elizabeth: In a short story there has to be a change in the main character. He has to reach some decision, some realization or action that makes him different at the end of the story than he was at the beginning. In this story Jack doesn't seem to change (or maybe you didn't show us how he changed).
anneliese: You should say that at the outset...checking *again*...helps to show character.
anneliese: Sorry, that was not meant to sound like a command, only a mild suggestion.
Elizabeth: And how he's checking will show his personality as well...perhaps he's looking for the details the rest of the crew missed, or paranoid about anything else going wrong, or a bored clipboard note-taker.
davek: I'll have to digest all this. What about my made up language and the count down at the end.
anneliese: I liked the way that you handled the count down.
davek: Thanks I needed that.
Elizabeth: Those details were good. I liked the count down too--a good way to show how Jack approaches the situation.
davek: So all I need is more character development. Maybe not all.
anneliese: We readers will enjoy the story more if there is a strong character to grasp and follow through his trials.
emptykube: sorry...escaped for a second to skim the ending again. I think the countdown and the language are fine. Focus on who these characters are.
anneliese: (any story, that is...this is my worst fault, too)
davek: I don't want to start on the ground before takeoff. Too early in my opinion.
emptykube: What is his relationship with the pilot? Do they fly together often? How well do they like each other? Do they joke? is there attraction? do they drop meaningless inuendos at each other?
davek: Flashbacks during the fall?
anneliese: Where you start it is good, IMO, last minute glitches before dropping the box.
anneliese: I'd do them sooner...keep the fall mostly brief and tense. Flashbacks there my distract from the momentum.
Elizabeth: The starting point is good. I'd personally like to see more of Jack's personality. What he's thinking, how he acts and reacts.
Elizabeth: <===agrees w/Anneliese about the flashbacks
davek: It is supposed to be a very military business like environment. Not much for chit chat. But I suppose they could.
emptykube: I don't know if its a question of flashbacks or not. Maybe just let Jack act like a real person...try to make the three people aboard the plane seem as real as possible.
Elizabeth: I liked how you set up the "drop" and Jack's opinion (or professional lack of opinion) about the guy they're about to drop.
anneliese: They don't have to talk, they can gesture, etc.
Elizabeth: That was a nice bit of characterization, IMO.
anneliese: Yea, the intended dropee was the most vivid of the three characters to me.
Elizabeth: brb...the dog's getting restless.
emptykube: agrees with elizabeth...more along those lines maybe?
anneliese: Some feelings about the pilot, would flesh out her character as well as give us insight into Jack.
davek: Did you expect the dropee to be the main character?
anneliese: Nope, not at all.
anneliese: Jack is the main character, and most appropriately so, IMO.
anneliese: Did I expect Jack to be dropped? Of course!
Elizabeth: bak
anneliese: That is one stupid design for a pod.
Elizabeth: lol! I wondered why Jack wasn't thinking the same thing!
davek: What is stupid?
anneliese: Which is something else Jack could be commenting on...having to get inside to fix the wiring...really!
Elizabeth: Or "where's the stupid backup system when I need it?"
System: emptykube joined us. Cheers!
Elizabeth: welcome back Mike!
anneliese: Hey Mike, you have a doppleganger!
davek: Well the outside is all radar absorbing material. You don't want to cut it.
emptykube:
Elizabeth: lol!
emptykube: just call me clutsy...I was multitasking and closed the wrong windows..
anneliese: Why wouldn't the access panels just be sealed with radar absorbing duct tape?
anneliese: That would be Jack's idea, anyway.
davek: But then you would have to test the joints to see if they good.
Elizabeth: I'd expect a piece of military hardware to have some redundant systems. Some way of completing the mission, or aborting it, if things went wrong.
anneliese: Keeps him from having to be in the space soon to be occupied by that fat stinking ex-dictator.
davek: I should add some thoughts as to the design of the box. BTW, is "box" OK?
Elizabeth: Not that Murphy's Law doesn't apply in these situations... :tongue:
anneliese: Box is ok if it is used to show more of Jack's character...of course, it is really called a pod!
Elizabeth: "Box" is the kind of slang I'd expect a military guy to come up with. Look at the nicknames they've given aircraft. "Warthog", "BUFF"...
emptykube: "Box " is fine. I liked the punnish title...
davek: Maybe make a bigger dealabout the mods to the box. That is why Jack, the "expert" is there.
anneliese: Or has some military-sounding acronym.
davek: HOw about - Jack in the Box. ??
Elizabeth: Ah, yes, product enhancements. Sounds good to me.
Elizabeth: roflmao!
emptykube: If Jack is the expert...might he not have been in on the modifications, and therefore knew what to expect?
anneliese: (dog better not still be around)
Elizabeth: brb
davek: What is roflmao ?
emptykube: rolling on floor laughing my a-- off
davek: I had to ask what LOL was.
davek: SO you like Jack in the Box?
anneliese: Or is Jack around because he has a knack of getting faulty prototypes to work when the engineers can't?
davek: Yes, Anneliese got it. This is a bit like charades.
emptykube: also, if he is alyas having problems with faulty machines and knows the way these computers think, might he not have figured out a backdoor around their code and that's why is so useful??
emptykube: always not alyas
davek: I wrote this a few months back. Then I got the I,Robot book and realized that Jack is a bit like the two troubleshooters in those stories.
anneliese: Another thought re: forshadowing your ending...Jack's thoughts on the war???
emptykube: haven't read I Robot in centuries...
davek: Ut the engineers are always writing new code.
davek: Bones says that in the Star Trek movie.
emptykube: see this is why you need AI's...so humans cn't muck up decent code!
anneliese: lol
davek: We'll fix that in 0.6
Elizabeth: lol!
anneliese: Be careful here...both your hosts are programmers.
anneliese:
Elizabeth: Husband has returned from business trip and needs help unloading the car. Dave, I hope I've been of some help to you.
davek: I've done my share.
anneliese: Glad you could make it, Elizabeth.
davek: Yes, thanks for your input. Til next time.
anneliese: And, Dave, since you have another week, we can carry this discussion onto AOL next week.
Elizabeth: I don't have a problem with your line of thought. I've been fixing "it's not great and I didn't have time to document it, but it'll work for now" code for years now.
emptykube: ...well before I offend the hosts...I need to get going also..vacation ends tonight and its back to work tomorrow. need to get some rest so I can handle the heart crunching stress
Elizabeth: Good night all!
davek: Wow, after 9 MDT. TIme goes fast when your having fun. Hope you can stick around until I get this rewritten.
Elizabeth: get some sleep, Mike!
System: Elizabeth left us (snif).
anneliese: Yes, hope the stress won't be too bad for you, Mike.
davek: If some new people show up. I wouldn't want to bore you guys again.
anneliese: Bore us? How could you possibly do that?
davek: Bye Mike. Thanks again.
davek: I could write.
anneliese: Niters, Mike.

System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Dave!
davek: Hi Anneliese.
anneliese: Is Chris going to make it tonight?
davek: I don't know. He left a message on the forum that said he was having trouble contacting me email. If he was going to be here I would have expected him to wait.
anneliese: I couldn't figure out the message...it appeared for me around an hour ago, but the time stamp said 10am.
davek: I saw it about 4 PM mountain taime.
anneliese: I was going to respond that tonight's chat can be another GenE, because I doubt that we'll see herbie.
davek: Is he in Europe?
anneliese: Hi might be. I don't remember.
davek: I was looking at your personal GenE page. I've got mixed feelings about it.
anneliese: It's not meant to be taken too seriously.
davek: On one hand it is a contribution but on the other it is very un-wiki like.
anneliese: I don't see it as un-wiki...the point of a wiki is that everyone can create pages...and cross link them.
davek: I think the idea of the wiki is to have everyone wite in the same pages.
anneliese: Certainly, you are welcome to add stuff to my pages...if not, I'd write-protect them.
anneliese: Personally, I don't like to see ultra-long pages...I like structure and relatively short pages.
anneliese: When the page gets too long, it gets very hard for me to follow.
anneliese: I also was struggling with the fact that I thought folks ought to be contributing more of their own thoughts and impression, in their own way...
davek: I agree. This would be a lot easier if we had more participation. I feel like I'm talking mostly to myself.
anneliese: ...not necessarily the way we structure the overall pages.
anneliese: Me too. If not for your entries, I'd feel like the whole project was for my gratification alone <g>
davek: ANd I feel that I almost forced you to install a wiki.
anneliese: Of course, the fact that I have no life might have something to do with that.
davek: LOL I feel the same way sometimes.
anneliese: Nope, you didn't force me to do anything. In fact, I have another wiki in process...I'm trying to build up my web skills.
anneliese: I'm having way too much fun playing with all of this.
davek: Good. DId you first here about wikis from me or had you known about them.
anneliese: A couple of years ago I did check out a wiki site...but I couldn't see what it was about...kind of how I feel about blogging now :beard:
anneliese: Even though I'm doing a lot of tinkering, it's also helping me work out story details that have had me stumped for a long time.
davek: Have you heard from the prospective new members?
anneliese: Nope, and that is kind of disappointing.
anneliese: So I'm trying to spread the word any way I can, adding links, posting on message boards, etc.
davek: Here is a site http://phobosweb.com about a paying collaborative work.
davek: I did see where one site from my list had changed to the new web address.
anneliese: Yep, I did get the first one on the list, but the rest have basically ignored my requests so far.
anneliese: We'll get there, though. It will probably take a couple more months for the search engines to catch up.
davek: You do seem to have a few stories to send out. I'm finally getting out of my doldrums and writing again.
anneliese: Yes, I had hoped that I'd get off my butt and finish my story, but it isn't happening just yet.
davek: One of the ways to get to write is called BIC - butt in chair. So you're half way theer.
anneliese: Yes, but with high speed wireless access, it's easy to be distracted.
davek: That's the truth.
davek: I'm trying to force myself to write for at least one hour per day. SInce I just started it I'm batting 1000. One day down.
anneliese: Also, hubby has been having problems with his eyes for the past few months...that is very distracting.
anneliese: That's fantastic...I gotta do that.
davek: I had a deteched retina a while back.
anneliese: His is more serious...inflamed optic nerves due to elevated cerebro-spinal fluid, and he seems to have allergies to most of the meds.
anneliese: Although a detatched retina is no fun either.
davek: Yuck.
anneliese: Well, in more ways than one, it has been an interesting year.
davek: I hope it turns out OK. My year has thankfully been boring.
anneliese: After this one, a boring year would be most welcome.
anneliese: We're already willing to just jump to 2005.
anneliese: Skip the rest of this year.
davek: Not to mention the elections.
anneliese: Definately would love to skip all of that.
davek: Are you near Boston?
anneliese: Near enough...less than 2 hours by car.
davek: Too close. But it should be an inspiration for some stories.
anneliese: Lots of story inspiration for sure.
davek: I want to start a story - One side says the other side sucks. No details.
anneliese: I'm not sure I understand.
davek: I was thinking that "The Other Side Sucks" would make a good comic strip title.
anneliese: True.
anneliese: Could be fun.
davek: MOst of the news is ons side saying bad things about the other. It's not news.
anneliese: Of course I love all things absurd.
anneliese: I confess that I've been ignoring as much of the news as possible these days.
anneliese: I'm in such a funk already that I don't need any more negative inspiration.
davek: When I was in college my frieds and I went to the Grnd Prix races in Watkins Glen NY. THere was a swampy area called the bog. We would drink and chant "the other side sucks"
anneliese: LOL
davek: We would ring this bog chanting until someone got drunk enough to try to drive their car through.
anneliese: I'm sorry I missed that. (well, maybe not)
davek: Fun when you're young and don't have a car.
davek: WHere have Empty and Eddy been?
anneliese: Not sure. Eddy was on the message board this afternoon.
anneliese: I suspect that life has gotten in the way for Empty.
davek: MAybe we should spend some time brainstorming how to get new members. BUt I admit I don't have any ideas.
anneliese: I think we have the pieces in place, we just have to let time do its thing for a while.
anneliese: I was wondering if you wanted to spend any time brainstorming GenE.
anneliese: Or other projects.
davek: Sure, BTW you should update your journal page. It starts with the June 14 th chat.
anneliese: Yep. You're right. I haven't even thought about that in a long while.
anneliese: I should add more content to it.
davek: My big question on GenE is why would anyone sighup for a 100,000 year mission.
anneliese: Lots of reasons. The main one being a better life for ones descendants.
anneliese: Also, adventure for the sake of adventure.
anneliese: And accident can be a factor as well.
davek: So life on earth is a problem. I could buy that. Is it a natural disaster any if we can reach the stars why can't we fix that.
davek: That would be too much like ANderson's Tau Zero book.
anneliese: Well, I have a mythos...
anneliese: If I go back to my Mother Earth stories,
davek: I won;t hold a speech problem against you ;-)
anneliese: Gaia decides to limit human population on earth.
anneliese: So, the only way to get around that restriction is to leave.
anneliese: Personally, I think it's in our nature to want to spread to fill any vacuum.
davek: Good, There was a story where there was a limited number of souls. As the human population increased the old people started dying. This was years back, and China was an enemy. China started breeding and the solution was tonuke them.
davek: I think explorers would go into the unknown but they leave their families behind.
anneliese: I've heard that concept, but not that particular story.
davek: I can't think of the title or author, sorry.
anneliese: I don't think explorers would leave their families behind if they could bring them along.
davek: It depends on the danger.
davek: Maybe if there is a way to clone yourself.
anneliese: With the times and distances we are talking about, there would not necessarily be time or a family to return to.
anneliese: I have mixed feeling about clones...I believe that some folks will, but I'm not sure why (other than ego).
anneliese: And, I'm not sure clones will turn out to be what people think they will be.
davek: They should be almost identical twins.
davek: Unless we figure out some way to upload and download memories and thoughts.
anneliese: I believe in a 'body, mind, spirit' model, where 'body' is the only entity physically in this realm...cloning only duplicates the 'body', so 2/3s of the twins are not identical.
davek: Does a new mind and soul develop with the new body? If so then it is like a twin.
anneliese: Well, that would be the interesting part: body + mind + spirit = life...
anneliese: ...of course, I'm not really sure where the mind and spirit come from.
davek: What about animals?
anneliese: So, yes, the clone is like a natural twin...if it can be created and survive as a living being.
davek: I'm very much, what you see is what you get.
anneliese: Animals are no different, imho.
davek: They hae a soul?
anneliese: I don't think cloning is yet far enough along to really know what is going on.
davek: IS it a reincarnation thing?
anneliese: Yes, animals definately have a soul.
davek: OK, how about a mind?
davek: Define it first.
anneliese: Soul might be a reincarnation thing, or it may not. There are differing opinions.
anneliese: Animals definately have a mind...they think, reason and remember.
davek: Just a little devil's advocate. How it doesn't offen you.
anneliese: Not necessarily as humans do those things, but in a similar way.
anneliese: Naw. No offense, it's fun.
davek: I thought I knew you well enough to get away withit.
anneliese: I guess you do
davek: Well, we didn't get much done on GenE.
anneliese: No, we're being chickens...worrying about doing it all and not getting everyone's opinion.
davek: Part of the problem with collaborative world building is you need to specify so much up front. In your own stories you can just have a vague feeling about many aspects.
anneliese: Maybe we should just start another project to play with while waiting for that one to develop.
anneliese: And maybe we're trying to specify more than is really necessary...hard to tell.
davek: No, I think it would go the same way. Unless, it is pretty fleshedout and only a few point need to be figured out.
davek: Frm what I've read the back story is bigger than the final novel. So I don't think so.
anneliese: Well, you have my permission to shoot me an gloating email for every hour that you write.
davek: This is the problem with most collaboration projects. We need a strong leader or we defer to everyone else and nothing gets decided.
davek: I will not have to worry about AOL turning me off for spamming.
anneliese: Very true. Every project needs a leader that is an evil taskmaster.
anneliese: LOL
davek: My friend is trying to start a business. He is a techie and is not a driver so all we do is have meetings.
anneliese: Are you part of the startup?
davek: I tell him there are two things you need at every meeting 1- the time for the next meeting and 2- the task that are to be done by the next meeting.
anneliese: Good advice.
davek: I attend the meeting. I'm sure how much a part if it I am. If it takes off then my writing time will suffer a lot.
anneliese: Can be fun, but it is a lot of work. I wish you all luck.
davek: Thanks. I'm not sure exactly what I want to happen.
anneliese: Small business have lots of good things...and lots of not so good.
davek: Probably time to sign off.
davek: It has been fun. When are you sending an e-mail about the decision area in the wiki?
anneliese: Yep, probably. AM comes around too early. And I was dopy all day.
anneliese: Whenever you want...I thought you were doing that, told you my brain was mush!
anneliese: Tomorrow?
davek: And I thought you signed up for that.
anneliese: I most likely did.
davek: You or me?
anneliese: And I have no problem doing it.
anneliese: If you're set with the decision page, I'll announce it.
davek: We were going to decide when to have another special chat.
davek: Page is OK.
davek: We can not set a specific date yet. We wanted a week or two to discuss it on the wiki
anneliese: Yep, but you'll have to take the 'This is in development...' message out.
davek: CHris was going to contact Mike but I think he was npt able.
davek: It will be gone tonight. The form seems good.
anneliese: How about I also ask people's feelings about special chats on Wednesdays or some other time.
anneliese: I think the form is fantastic.
davek: Sounds good. Wait until late tomorrow. I'll e-mail CHris and see if he has any input.
anneliese: Possibly add some text anchors and/or set some heading levels so that it will auto generate a TOC at the beginning.
anneliese: I'll wait until Wednesday then. I don't do any SFWW emails from home.
davek: OK. I'll have to RTFM to see about TOC's
anneliese: Good thought putting the comment block on the GenE main page also.
anneliese: I can do it, if you don't want to RTFM.
davek: It took a bit of work to get it to let me show [[ without making it a link.
davek: I'll do it tomorrow. I don't mind learning how.
anneliese: There is more than a trivial amount to learn with regards to text formatting.
davek: Sometimes when I post using a comment box it lists me as guest
anneliese: OK, then, I'll just have to find some more plug-ins to install...for you to learn.
davek: If they are useful, no problem.
anneliese: That's wierd. The sessions plug-in was supposed to fix that.
anneliese: There is another that I'm considering that allows some drawing tools.
davek: It seems to depend on the path I take to the page.
anneliese: I thought that might be useful for charts and the like.
anneliese: I suppose that if you went directly to an edit page, rather than view first, you could bypass the login.
davek: I always get a login dialog. I'll watch it carefully and tell you what causes it or fixes it.
davek: Time to go. I'll email you tomorrow.
anneliese: I'd appreciate that. I've never seen a comment post except with a valid user id.
anneliese: Sounds good. Have a good night.
davek: Bye.

System: camidon joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi CM!
camidon: howdy, Anneliese
anneliese: Caving today?...or writing?
camidon: How's it going this evening?
camidon: Was on the clock today. 9-6. Recovering from the 14 hour exploration trip yesterday
anneliese: Not bad. I've had some spiritual cleansing...think I'm ready to write again.
camidon: I've never been so sore <groand>
camidon: Spiritual Cleansing???
anneliese: Hope it's a good kind of sore, though.
camidon: But writing again is good. I don't know if I've ever read anything of yours.
anneliese: It's been a tough year for me. But I think I'm working through it, finally.
anneliese: You might have, although I haven't sent anything around in a very long time.
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Dave!
camidon: That's positive.
camidon: Hi Dave
davek: HI guys.
anneliese: Thanks for the email, Dave.
davek: No problem.
davek: I'll look into that novel manuscript page.
anneliese: Story log looks good, too.
anneliese: There is probably something good already out there, if we just want to find a link.
davek: I'm sure there is.
camidon: I'm still running way behind on SFWW stuff. Haven't gotten to the GenE sight in a while.
camidon: Nor the recent advances to the website.
anneliese: You must have spent some time on the wiki today, I see that the home page has been updated.
anneliese: Some advances, some backward steps, CM.
davek: I think the wiki is doing good. I still think we need to get new mwmbers. But that is for another chat.
camidon: It's always a process.
davek: I hope you don't mind. I thought it could use a little work.
anneliese: I'm beginning to have fun with it...even thinking about using it for other projects.
anneliese: I'd like to eventually revamp the home page so that it looks like a real entry point and move a lot of the
anneliese: rest of the stuff to sub-pages.
davek: The wiki or the SFWW home page?
anneliese: The wiki home page.
anneliese: Like those noisy links to the housekeeping stuff at the bottom.
anneliese: Make the whole thing a little less power-user and a little more novice-friendly.
davek: There is a lot at the bottom. I'm not sure if we need them or not or just leave them
camidon: So Dave, where do you think we stand on the GenE project?
anneliese: I'm thinking of making a page to contain them, and link to it.
camidon: I think that's a good idea, Anneliese
davek: Ann, that makes sense I think we need a novice info dump on the first page but that is all I would add.
anneliese: I agree, Dave.
davek: Chris, the GenE is fine but it needs participation. Also it needs a few major decisions, such as the length of the trip and if gene engineering is allowed.
camidon: Agreed.
anneliese: How can you prevent gene engineering?
davek: Ann, how do new users get into the wiki? Without a password can they see the front page?
anneliese: I posted a message on the message board and also sent an announcement.
anneliese: For access instructions. I will have to update the new member letter with the same.
davek: Chris, I was thinking that our two different views fast travel and gene engineering vs. slow and natural could make a story. We log our discussions and write it.
anneliese: I'm reluctant to post the guest id and password on the front page.
davek: Is a read only login possible?
camidon: Maybe we just need a chat with you, me, Mike, and anyone else who can make it, to go step by step through the issues and instead of discussion, we'll just do straight votes. Then we'll tally up the responses, and for the items upon which we disagree widely, that's what we need to have more discussion about.? Just some idea.
davek: Where is Mike?
anneliese: Good idea, CM. Don't know about Mike.
camidon: Don't know.
anneliese: The TWiki security system is kind of vague. There are ways to fix it, but I haven't figured them out yet.
camidon: Then, with this basic data, we could fill out the WIKI page.
davek: To answer Ann, you prevent gene engineering by laws.
anneliese: But, I still have issues with respect to casual non-SFWW browsers of the wiki and potential publication rights problems.
davek: The idea of the wiki is that we discuss it on the wiki. THat way we don't need a mutual agreed upon time.
anneliese: But laws are constantly in flux...what one generation outlaws, another can reverse.
camidon: True, Dave, about the WIKI.
camidon: However, I'm thinking about a one time quick way to see where everyone stands, and get all that info on the WIKI, and from there we can go anywhere.
davek: Ann, maybe we could copy the active webs section of the wiki to the SFWW page and only let members in.
camidon: Right now, we're picking and choosing (which is good), but it9;s horribly slow. I think we need to iron out a few more universe details before we can seriously start writing stories.
anneliese: I'm not sure I understand what you mean, Dave.
anneliese: What sort of details are you thinking about, CM?
davek: Just include a description of the different webs that are on the wiki and have it on the SFWW web site.
camidon: That, I don't know, Anneliese Haven't been to the WIKI page enough to see where we are really.
davek: I agree that our story ideas should only be available to members.
anneliese: To me, the most important thing to get in place and decide is how the project is organized, and the ground rules for collaborative writing.
camidon: But the stuff Dave mentioned, timeframe of story (Hundreds vs millions of years), etc
anneliese: That is a good idea, Dave, I can put the webs description up on a webpage describing the SFWW wiki.
davek: There are two issues. How to run a world building wiki, and the details of this particular world. We are doing both at the same time.
camidon: True, Dave.
anneliese: I guess that I'd like to focus on GenE, and hope(?) that the wiki issues will resolve in stride.
camidon: Perhaps, the first is more important. Without a solid structure to build a world, then a world won't survive it's creation???
anneliese: Tie breaker, Dave?
anneliese: Actually, I think we need to discuss how the collaborative part of the project is structured...
davek: I think we have a good start on running the wiki, so I would start on the world now and change the rules as we need to.
anneliese: rules of collaboration/ outline of things to do, etc.
anneliese: As a newbie, I think I would be afraid to jump in and mess with this, not really knowing what ideas are established or understanding the groundrules.
anneliese: (these are not wiki issues, but writing issues, imho)
davek: I agree it would be intimidating.
davek: Operational - rule issues.
anneliese: For example, I can see a multi-book series with book one dealing with beginning story issues
davek: What we need are more participants so we can find the problems and create the rules to fix them.
camidon: Dave, (jumping isses). Are you still planning to created that WIKI page with the story ideas? So we can associated ideas with the people behind them, and use them as brainfeed for everyone?
anneliese: ...how space exploration develops; developing deep space faring asteroids, etc.
camidon: And so we know who has what ideas for stories?
davek: Chris, it is on the GenE page. I figured as long as it is small I would leave it there.
camidon: Yes, the more participants, the better. But until we get things established, I think we've got all we're going to get.
anneliese: Next series of stories (book 2) deals with the third generation in space...how they are/are not adapting.
camidon: I'll have to check that out then.
camidon: Eventually, I'll contact Herbie about setting up a chat he could attend. I'd be he'd love that. (Though the time difference may just be too much of a barrier.)
anneliese: Another series deals with the generations landing on the new planet...some are ship gypsies and want to stay that way...some begin the adaptation to a planet.
davek: Ann, or do we want a first book that covers a good part of the flight so readers get a better idea of the whole idea.
camidon: I've decided not to worry about the construction of a book, until we actually have a few stories written. Then we'll see what we have.
davek: I agree with Chris. Put off what you can.
camidon: Let people write what they want in the universe, and see what happens, then structure a book. Unless, of course, some asks for more specifics.
camidon: " Actually, I think we need to discuss how the collaborative part of the project is structured..." What excatly do you mean Anneliese? How can we do this better, if this is a concern of yours.
anneliese: I'd suggest scoping out 3-5 'series' and let writers choose to work within that framework.
davek: Job one is to define the universe. THen create a time line and then write the stories.
anneliese: When you as editors begin getting finished stories, there may only be one (first) book that takes the best from the entire group and tells the whole story.
davek: I'm thinking that the first book may include a lot of "The Making of" this project.
anneliese: I'm thinking of the mechanics that the "Thieves World" series used...which is described in the back of one of the books.
camidon: I agree, Dave. Let's finish figuring out the basics of the universe. The WIKI site is great, but this was also why I suggested the one more Definite chat, to once and for all, voice all the main opinions, in a succint format, from all the main folks interest (Dave, me, Anneliese, Elizabeth, Mike).
anneliese: Yes, you do have to map out the overall universe and timeline. Also, create some sort of framework for the authors to use.
camidon: What do you mean, by framework?
camidon: Then we can put all that in the WIKI site, for an even better discussion basis (not that we've had poor discussion
anneliese: For example, in Thieves World, the framework centered around a certain town.
anneliese: In GenE, the framework begins with the basic concept of slow ships and evolution...
anneliese: but we might want to add some 'connecting' story that keeps everything together.
anneliese: Maybe a religion or philosophy regarding evolution that repeats itself as a theme???
camidon: Ok, I get you. I've been thinking about that same line of framework.
anneliese: There has to be something to help the reader pull it all together.
camidon: I've decided to not worry about that yet, until a few groundwork stories are written. Once we've got a few things, we can fill in the framework to connect the time gaps and so forth.
anneliese: Especially since the timeline and universe are so vast.
anneliese: Maybe I can pull my thoughts together on this and create a page.
davek: Ann, if you could post the thieve's world mechanics.
anneliese: Certainly feel more than welcome to scrap anything I'd say, but it might give you some fodder to build upon.
anneliese: Yep, Dave, I'll try to look it up...the books are around here somewhere.
camidon: Dave, would you be opposed, to another chat? Solely to systematically go through the issues we've thought of, and once and for all see where everyone stands? I'd contact MIke to see what would work for him? I'd envision as a 1 hour chat, where we don't do any discussion, but simply line by line, go through the list of world construction possibilites.
davek: No I'm not opposed to a chat but the attendance seems low.
anneliese: Again, this might be a great opportunity to use the wiki, and *force* folks to comment/vote there.
camidon: Yes, but I'm more concerend simply with you, me, Mike and Anneliese, the heavy hitters in the project thus far.
davek: That is a long list. We need to prioritize them
anneliese: (even though I love these chats )
camidon: I agree, which would have to be done before the chat, to make sure we move quickly through the issues.
camidon: "his might be a great opportunity to use the wiki, and *force* folks to comment/vote there. What do you mean?"
anneliese: Can we set ourselves a deadline to construct and post the list first?
camidon: How would you creat a page about this?
camidon: I think I get it though, and you're right, it may be better then a chat.
anneliese: If we post the list as a page, or series of related pages, then folks can add their comments directly there.
davek: How about - drum role please - an email to define a few topics to work on, a time period of a week or so to use the wiki to discuss it, and then a chat to for final discussion and voting.
camidon: I think that would work <nodding to self thoughtfully>
anneliese: And if we use the new comment box that I installed, it's pretty easy for folks.
anneliese: I like that Dave...it could even end up being, say, a 15 min. session before the regularly scheduled chat.
camidon: That sounds good to me. I say let's try it and see what happens.
anneliese: Who honchos the creation of the list and parceling of topics/issues?
camidon: How about this: Dave, you parcel up the topics list, and I'll contact Mike about a possible good chat time?
davek: I'll pick my 6 top issues and send them to you and Ann
davek: If no discension is a day or two then Ann sends them to ?? the group or the four?
camidon: Within a few days we'll put out an email with the topic, the exact comment time period (one-two weeks) and when the short chat will be.
camidon: I'm thinking sometime the first week of August??
camidon: I say lets send out the stuff to the group. I doubt will get any response, but who knows.
davek: If there is no story for Monday, how about the email goes out then. Then 1 or 2 weeks of wiki discussion (I think 2) and then the chat.
davek: That puts the chat the week of August 9th
anneliese: I have 2 subs in the queue...CM's and I forget who is after you.
anneliese: BobF, maybe.
davek: Oooh, action in the group. Great.
camidon: Fine by me, but that is the AOL chat. Which I can't attend. However, if we chat before the regular time, I'm sure I can make it.
davek: Chat the next wed. AUg 11th?
camidon: But I do want to contact Mike, and see ahead of time, what chat he might be able to make, since his schedule is the most crazy (I think)
anneliese: I can push you both back a week so you can have a story chat.
anneliese: (Maybe I'll just send something of mine around monday)
davek: We have until the emial goes out to set the date.
anneliese: Do see if you can contact Mike for his availability.
camidon: Will do. ONce I do that, we'll set the date. I'll be in email contact about it. And hopefully we'll get out the email to the group in two days or so.
davek: Ann, I don't see a comment box on the wiki.
anneliese: Look at the ShortShort stories in the Write web for an example of a comment box.
anneliese: It's a new plugin I installed.
davek: OK
anneliese: It allows you to add comments to a page without using the Edit process.
anneliese: Find the documentation in Twiki.plugins
anneliese: I think I added it to the Write web template also.
davek: Documentation, I don't need no stinking documentation.
anneliese: lol
camidon: lol
camidon: I've got to run here.
davek: Bye Chris.
anneliese: I'm glad you could make it...recouperate well!
davek: Ann, I assume I can just pull the code from the shortshort page.
camidon: It's been fun. I'll be in touch shortly.
anneliese: That's what I would do.
camidon: gnight all.
anneliese: Niters
anneliese: I also added the table formatting plugin and background color.
davek: Ann, you emailed me some comment about changing to a php wiki.
davek: WHy do we need/want the grep capability?
anneliese: Yes, I did. Given that we have so little text invested in this one, changing would be fairly easy.
anneliese: The grep capability is what runs the search engine...if you want text search capabilities, you need it.
davek: You're doing it go crazy.
anneliese: I was a afraid you'd say that.
davek: lol
anneliese: TWiki is a bit more mature and has more features.
davek: I removed the old world building links from the main page. You can delete the files whenever.
anneliese: I thought what I would probably do is install the phpWiki in the next few days and play with it.
anneliese: I've also submitted a question to the Twiki support page, so maybe I'll get a work-around.
davek: Do we want to make a big change just before we may generate some heavy use?
anneliese: Yep, I noticed that you made the main page changes.
anneliese: I don't know whether we want to make the changes...we could just delete the links from the templates and no one would know.
davek: I think I'lladd a BIG DISCUSSION area. Should it be on the main GenE page?
anneliese: I think there should be a link from the main GenE page.
anneliese: And possibly a link from the Worlds main page.
anneliese: I'm also considering installing a *skin* to create a simple navigation link panel.
anneliese: Again, trying to make the thing more user friendly.
davek: SOunds good. Best to keep the number of mouse clicks to a minimum.
anneliese: I'd like to simplify the pages...do you think we could eliminate search and some other items?
anneliese: WikiWords ought to be enough with good cross-linking.
davek: Yes, It is complex, intimidating and unnecessary IMHO.
anneliese: Also, how do you feel about those revision numbers at the bottom.
davek: Probably not needed except on a rare occasion.
anneliese: The history is going to be kept. Maybe we can create an alternate skin for power users when they want to see that stuff.
davek: You can use html comment markup to get rid of them but have them easily available?
anneliese: Twiki has a better way to accomplish that...still learning it though.
anneliese: For example, you have the ability to create your own custom way of viewing a page, that no one but you knows about and uses.
anneliese: The methodology is called skins and is very powerful.
davek: Good for power users, huh.
anneliese: Basically, skins are a way of hiding most of the default power user functions.
anneliese: Defaults can be established, which can be overridden at the web, topic and user levels.
davek: It threw me when my name came up on the top page. I thought it was me only not a by user thing.
anneliese: Yep, I changed that so you would know for sure that you were logged in.
davek: As I said earlier - Go crazy. I hope this translates into something you can use in your business.
anneliese: Didn't see a need for the TwikiGuest link.
anneliese: So do I. If nothing else, it has been a form of entertainment for me.
davek: Such a straight line. I'm blocked with responses.
davek: But, it's getting late.
anneliese: True, it is.
anneliese: The problem is, being a night owl, these chats really get me wired.
anneliese: I guess I should make the log and post it.
davek: I'll get that list out today or tomorrow.
davek: Yes, especially story ones where you want to develop an idea.
anneliese: That will be fantastic. I'll try to keep you guessing with what I am doing with the wiki.