Chat log for September 27, 2004

anneliese: Hi CM!
camidon: Eesh, when do you get here! I haven't checked in in 5 minutes or so!
System: davek joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Only just got here.
anneliese: Hi Dave!
camidon: It's good to see your virtual existens though!
davek: HI guys.
camidon: That's good.
camidon: Hey, Dave
camidon: What's new with u2? Is there a topic tonight?
anneliese: I was checking your posts on the wiki...got looking for something to do ratings and learned that there is an upgrade to the wiki available.
anneliese: Open topic...or muse discussion?
anneliese: I just got the subs posted on the wiki.
camidon: Cool. I've been perusing the GenE stuff every day these last few days. Just posted some stuff regarding your GenE muses, Anneliese. Hope that was okay.
anneliese: Absolutely!
camidon: On your own personal muse page that is.
anneliese: Also, I'm in the process of moving sfwriters.org to a new host.
camidon: I thought it would be, but just in case I figured I'd ask and write disclaimers!
anneliese: I'm going to check them out, CM.
anneliese: If I don't like something...I can always delete it
camidon: Yep!
camidon: You there, Dave?
davek: I haven't been doing much. Some kind of funk I suppose.
anneliese: As you all get more comfortable with the wiki, I have some things I'd like your opinions on..
camidon: (I like the toilet smiley way too much)
camidon: You mean writing in general, Dave, or GenE related funk?
anneliese: So do I, CM...only I can't seem to get to it...so you'll just have to flush for me, I guess
davek: Everything. I', in a low energy mode.
camidon: LOL. Anneliese, ask away about WIKI stuff if now seems to work. After all, there's no topic tonight. (Although I'll be the first to admit I have little knowledge of the underworking of WIKI)
anneliese: I know that feeling, Dave.
anneliese: Well, I tried installing another wiki, phpWiki on the new host....
anneliese: The main features that I like about it are a better login mechanism and search capability.
camidon: That's no fun, Dave. We've probably all been there. A few days ago I got 3 rejections on the same day. Talk about a major depressor. 1 at a time I can handle, bull all at once is playing dirty. Took me a while to slip out of that funk.
anneliese: Our current wiki, TWiki, is much stronger in its ability to structure and organize content.
anneliese: So now I'm torn...basically it is search vs. structure.
davek: I never used the search, so I'm not sure which that votes for.
anneliese: Well, searching doesn't work in the current wiki, so I yanked it from most of the templates.
anneliese: Search would be useful, for example, when you wanted to find all the pages that contained a reference to GenX
anneliese: Right now, we don't have that capability...or the capability to list pages that have had recent changes.
davek: That explains that. But if the structure is good than finding the pages would be easy.
anneliese: Exactly. I get very lost when there is no defined structure, so I feel that structure is very important...but that could just be me.
davek: WHat is the problem with structure on the php version?
camidon: I think structure is more important and this initial stage. I agree, Dave.
anneliese: phpWiki simply doesn't have the facility of 'webs' or content structuring that we are using now.
camidon: Searhes would be useful, but not at the expense of easy and definied structuring, IMO
anneliese: If you look at the Write web, you see that I have set it up with a strong structure.
anneliese: The Worlds web is less structured right now, but gets more so as we develop more content.
davek: I suspect that the 80-20 rule applies. 80% of us will use only 20% of the capability. Don't spend too much effort on adding soething that most of us won't use.
anneliese: There might be a way to simulate structure in phpWiki, but I haven9;t gotten there yet.
anneliese: All I know is that as I was going through our wiki tonight, I'd have liked to use a search capability.
davek: WHat were you searching for?
anneliese: CM's posts.
anneliese: And other changes since last I looked.
camidon: Agree, Dave. In face, I suspect quite a few SFWWers are frightened of the WIKI capabilities and don't know how to utilize it, i.e., simply editing pages and using the standard formatting
anneliese: I use the WebStatistics pages a lot to track changes.
davek: A change history would be good.
anneliese: I admit that the wiki was pretty daunting to me the first time I approached it.
davek: I had to simulate that by asking people to list the topic and date at the top of the page.
camidon: Anneliese, there is that one GenE page that has us list our last update, but that's only for the in-depth GenE discussion, and not the GenEdecision page. Maybe we need to have and update log even earlier in the WIKIsite?
anneliese: However, once it gets populated with our content, it becomes much easier to understand.
anneliese: I can build an automatic update log...that would be easier to maintain, I think.
davek: CM, there is a trade off between having users list there changes and they're actually doing it. Ask for too much and you'll get nothing.
camidon: yes, it does, Anneliese. I consider myself fairly knowledge about computers, and the WIKIsite took me a while before I felt moderately comfortable. I'm still no programmer though, and so I don't know how to do 4/5 of the fancy WIKI formatting.
camidon: True, Dave.
anneliese: Well, there are some new formatting plug-ins and page layouts that look MUCH easier to work with.
davek: We're trying to use the wiki as half way betwee a wiki and a forum.
anneliese: Yes, as the best of both.
camidon: It's funny, really, as I was only an hour ago surfing the WIKI site and wondering about people ease of use with it. My thoughts drifted to having a WIKI class for the SFWW group so others become comfortable with it. However, there's no need for this now, as there's very few people active in the group at the moment. Perhaps thisis something to consider if we start seeing new faces.
anneliese: That sounds like a great idea, CM.
davek: Is there an e-mail front end? Someway of emailing to the wiki and having it show up?
System: Elizabeth joined us. Cheers!
anneliese: Hi Elizabeth!
Elizabeth: hello everybody!
anneliese: I'm not sure I understand your question, Dave.
davek: Hi Elizabeth.
camidon: Hi Elizabeth
anneliese: We're talking about the wiki, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth: Ah. Haven't visited it lately...bad moderator!
davek: Is there a way to e-amil to sfww.wiki.worlds.gene so that all email are added to a particular page?
anneliese: Now, you're going to make me jealous with that flusher!
Elizabeth: The last time I tried to update it (which was a while ago) it wouldn't take my updates.
camidon: Perhaps a chat dedicated to how to manipulate the WIKI environment, and how not to be frightened of the editing page, and all the fancy formatting needed. Something to think about in the future.
davek: Any new members on the horizon?
anneliese: Re: email posts...I'll have to check into that.
camidon: I've found, Elizabeth, sometimes you have to ask it twice, and it works fine. Oh yeah, and toss in a please.
anneliese: lol
Elizabeth: pretty please with sugar on top?
davek: How do you bribe a computer?
anneliese: I think the first time after you register is problematic, with the way the login works.
camidon: lol, don't use sugar as it makes the keys sticky
anneliese: After that, it should be fine.
Elizabeth: lol!
Elizabeth: I offered it more RAM, but I don't think I can follow through on my bribe...
camidon: Seriously though, sometimes when I try to change things it tells me I can't/gives me an error message. Then I go back, press the "save changes" again, and it works fine. Anyone had this problem?
Elizabeth: could be a problem.
anneliese: Not here.
davek: I really liked the challenge. Are we supposed to critique on the wiki?
davek: I've had that problem.
camidon: In fact, just tonight it did it too me twice at to different times. But I went back, checked my text, changed nothing, and clicked the save button again and it worked fine.
davek: It says something like - transactio too large.
camidon: yah, yah, yah, Dave.
anneliese: Oh, yes, I might have had that once...like you, I went back, hit save again and it worked.
Elizabeth: I couldn't get my updates to take at all.
anneliese: But I've made tons of changes and had very little problem.
Elizabeth: But it's been a while since I last tried to update the wiki.
anneliese: What browser, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth: IE.
anneliese: That could be the problem.
camidon: Do you mean, the writing challenge? Like the muse story Dave?
davek: CM, yes.
anneliese: Stories are now posted.
Elizabeth: Should I try Netscape or Mozilla and see if I have better luck?
davek: Couldn't hurt.
anneliese: I use Netscape or Safari almost exclusively.
camidon: I was wondering about that too, Dave. About critiquing them on WIKi.
anneliese: Mozilla should work.
camidon: After years of prodding, Eddy finally got me to switch to Mozilla as well, so that's what I use too.
anneliese: Foxfire is also good
anneliese: Or is it Firefox?
camidon: Can we do that? Critique the Challenge stories, such as the Muse one, on the WIKI site?
davek: I'm sererously cosidering send mine into the Wrider's DIgest short short competition. I would like some feedback.
davek: Firefox.
camidon: it's Firefox. THat's whatI have, Mozilla Firefox
Elizabeth: I'll check it out, thanks.
anneliese: I think I keep getting it confused with the How To books.
anneliese: Unless you do a lot with Shockwave files, you'll love it.
camidon: I don't see why we can't post crits on the wiki site wtg to the Challenges. I'll do one for you shortly, Dave.
davek: CM, thanks.
anneliese: I agree, CM. You can use the comments box, or create a linked page for your crit.
camidon: np, Dave. Besides, you're one of the only ones who has been giving me written crits of my Elevator story!! Thanks for that!
davek: no problem.
davek: We really need to up the participation. And membership.
camidon: Since wiki has been our topic, a few quick GenE things. 1) I made a decision as to the start date, and the timeframe. 2) I added a lot of discussion about why the ship would go and who would be responsible for it (governments, religion, etc)
anneliese: All good stuff, too.
camidon: Agreed, as always, Dave
davek: I'll have to check it out tomorrow.
camidon: As for critiques, I don't think my drawn out submission of the children's fantasy book has helped. There are just some folks who aren't interested in reading that at all.
camidon: But then again, there haven't been many submission in the queue no matter what.
anneliese: I don't know about that, CM. I'm noticing low participation in many areas (not SFWW related).
anneliese: I don't really understand it, but it seems wierd to me.
camidon: BTW, looking at the "Regular's Table" who is: kavinga?
davek: It's that fall funk. Like I've got. Shorting days. Coolong days.
camidon: What do you mean not SFWW related?
anneliese: In other groups/organizations that I am a member of.
Elizabeth: September's a busy month in general, especially if you have school-age kids.
anneliese: (which is kind of good since my email is wonky)
camidon: Just like that Summer funk (weather's too nice to write), and Spring funk (weather's just turning nice so its to hard to write) or Winter funk, (it's too dreary to write) :toilet:
davek: It's contagious.
camidon: Not meaning to belittle your current funk, dave
davek: It's always nice to be part of a bigger group.
anneliese: But I like our little group
anneliese: There may not be many of us, but the chemistry is good.
camidon: Agreed, Anneliese, and even is SFWW does get large again, I think there are some small group bonds that will last a while.
anneliese: The Muse challenge shows that, if nothing else.
davek: It is good, but a few more members would be good too.
anneliese: Absolutely.
Elizabeth: True. Do I need to start submitting stuff again? Or will that be too much of the "inner circle" thing?
camidon: However, related to lack of members/participation, there are always reasons/excuses for it. All the few of us can do is be proactive with group related activities, and I think we've done that to the best of our abilities.
davek: NO. Please submit.
camidon: Please, submit, Elizabeth! submit!
anneliese: Yes! Please submit something!
camidon: Espescially since there are so many wide open critique slots.
Elizabeth: brb
davek: Of course there is that second meaning of the word submit.
anneliese: Yea, like from now until December.
anneliese: lol, Dave!
camidon: The only think I tihnk we still need to work on is gettig our website visible to drawn in the new blood. Marks, old SFWW site is killing us.
davek: No luck on gettng AOL to allow us to at least put a link on the old page?
anneliese: Yes. I do wish we could do something about that. I'm going to try a few more emails.
camidon: oh my golly, Dave! That was not my intention!
camidon: Until we get our website visible, I think it's just going to be us, the small but fun and dedicated group.
anneliese: At least within the AOL search engine, my page follows Mark's page, so folks find us.
Elizabeth: bad Dave!
davek: Is Mark still a member?
Elizabeth: I'm back. Kiddo has a cough and lately he's coughing so hard he triggers his gag reflex. Blecch.
camidon: If Mark's old site is still killing us in a few months (say by Dec), then I would even advocating a name change or something so that we can get our Group back to center stage of Scifi/fantasy/horror writing groups
anneliese: Mark is a 'retired' member.
davek: Retired from SFWW or AOL?
anneliese: Sorry to hear that about Kiddo.
camidon: We're just in his websites shadow. We need to get were it counts, on top of the search list from search engines.
anneliese: Retired from SFWW. He's in the military.
camidon: ugh, that's icky, Elizabeth. Sorry to hear that. Hope the kiddo feels better soon.
Elizabeth: He's not running a fever or anything, just coughs a lot. I think he was jumping around the bedroom when he should be asleep--that's how it usually happens.
Elizabeth: My tolerance for icky has gone way up since I had Colin.
anneliese: lol
anneliese: Ah, to be a parent.
Elizabeth: Last I heard, Mark was back in the States, but he's now liaison for something-or-other at the White House. I suspect he doesn't have a lot of free time.
davek: I went direct to grandparent. Much cleaner.
anneliese: I'm going to try one of his old email addresses, see if it generates anything.
Elizabeth: lol! I hear grandparenting is lots more fun anyway.
Elizabeth: At least that's what my parents say.
camidon: Lol, Dave. I'll have to see about that for the future...
davek: Usually there is a big up front fee, but I avoided that by marrying late.
Elizabeth: Anneliese, let me give you the last e-mail addy he used. I think it's different from either of his AOL IDs.
camidon: Any ideas how to get our current website or the SFWW name/group more visible--outside AOL?
anneliese: I will spend some more time trying to get other sites to update their links.
Elizabeth: Anneliese, try HamilMac@comcast.net.
anneliese: That should be the best thing we can do.
Elizabeth: That was the addy on the last e-mail he sent me.
anneliese: Will do, thanks, Elizabeth.
camidon: Again, BTW, I assume since I got no response from the question, that no one knows who the "kavinga" is listed on this chat sites "regulars table"?
Elizabeth: I need to start updating my AOL blog more frequently, and perhaps add a link to SFWW to my Xanga page. I don't have a lot of readers, but I do have a few regulars.
Elizabeth: No idea, CM.
anneliese: It could be one of the developers.
camidon: Momentarily got excited about a new member
camidon: though I doubt it really is a new member
anneliese: Or someone that followed the link from our website...which is getting traffic.
camidon: Elizabeth, is there a link to your blog from the SFWW site? That might be useful and interesting. It would keep me remembering it.
anneliese: The page count is over 500.
anneliese: Send me a link, Elizabeth, and I'll add it.
anneliese: We could put in a member-links page, to link to individual blogs, webpages, etc.
camidon: Sorry, Anneliese, that was all me-- my computer had a glitch and opened 486 SFWW home pages at once...
anneliese: The more links that go to/from a website, the better the Google ranking.
Elizabeth: brb
anneliese: You mean I should reset the counter? Not get my hopes up?
camidon: <stuffing my whimsical pessimism away>
anneliese: lol
camidon: I'm just kidding of course. lol
anneliese: Seriously, 200 of those page views are probably me, anyway.
davek: You should be able to count the number of different sources.
anneliese: Yes, I can look at the web reports...which I haven't done in a while.
anneliese: Did anyone look at the new SFWW site?
davek: New since when?
anneliese: Friday...but you have to use a different address, since it isn't live yet.
camidon: Been there once since I got back. Looked good, but didn't scrutinize.
anneliese: http://mercedes.websitewelcome.com/~sfwriter/
camidon: oh, never mind, I thought you were talking about the active one. It's different from what I remember in July, the last time I was thoroughly AFWW active.
anneliese: Well I do try to update it from time to time...it's still a work in process.
davek: It's new to me. I'll take a look.
anneliese: Well, since I'm having so much trouble with email this week, I posted it in the forum, but nowhere else.
davek: I thought I checked that.
Elizabeth: bak...
camidon: That's were I saw that site! I new that address looked familiar
anneliese: Well I knew someone saw the post...it had 4 pageviews.
anneliese: Also, changing the subject, who wrote "The Theft of Arlo Muddleton?"
camidon: <looking at the time> I've got to head off tonight. It's been fun as usual.
anneliese: Yep, it is time to be wrapping things up.
camidon: ah, that would be me.
davek: Never heard of it. Try Amazon or google.
camidon: Was there a problem?
anneliese: Thought it might be...it's the only sub without a name.
anneliese: It's one of the Muse shorts.
camidon: Oops, my bad. I always forget something.
anneliese: How would you like your name listed?
camidon: Lol, Dave. I hope one day to be there Dave! But I'm not there yet!
anneliese: Or would you like to fix the page yourself? (even better)
camidon: CM Amidon as usual, Anneliese
camidon: I'll fix it tonight.
anneliese: OK.
davek: Getting late.
anneliese: Well, it's been a great chat.
camidon: Okay dokey. unless there's any other pressing issues, I'm out of here.
anneliese: Niters. See you all next week, I hope!
davek: Me too. See you all next time. Bye.
camidon: Gnight everyone.